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Vancouver Bars Network Together to Track Patrons
Tortured Potato writes "The Vancouver Sun reports
that bar owners in the area will soon start
tracking patrons by photo and driver's license. 'John Teti, chairman of the coalition,
said the vote is merely a formality. "We have
full backing from our members," Teti said
Monday....Once the system is in place, patrons
will be asked to stand in front of a camera to
have their picture taken and will then swipe
their drivers' licence, or possibly show some
other form of identification, that will
automatically give the establishment the patron's
name and age and show if he or she has caused
trouble at any other bar on the network.' I'm
glad to see that Big Brother is alive and well on
the left coast." This is the next step past merely swiping licenses.
When it used to be called the hospitality business. If my neigborhood bars were as friendly as the DMV asking for pictures and keeping profiles on customer behavior... They wouldn't survive. This will not survive long... Think of your average college sports bar trying to keep up with photos of every out of town fan on game day.
Keep the tech out of bars for the good of us all. Even the idea of a glass that reports when a drink is getting empty is a waste of time. Remember that story? Work on the people skills and good judgement of your staff first.
A reason for people over 21 to use a fake ID.
This sort of policy will almost certainly backfire.
Theres going to be a booming busisness in fake ids though. I have absoloutly no problem with handing someone a fake id with the correct birthdate, and completely bogus other information. THe law requires them to check that i am over 21. That information is accurate, and therefore i am not defrauding anyone.
THe law does not require them to take a mugshot and collect private data for marketing.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
I'm sure a system like this will become almost mandatory, as the insurance companies begin to charge triple for bars that don't participate in this system.
Sure, you can have a bar without this system, it's just it won't be financially viable as your montlhy insurance premium will be much higher than your competitors.
Just spewing thoughts here...
Can this system keep track of a 'bar tab' for me as well? Does it provide ANY value to me as a customer? (update: after RTFA, the answer given was 'give-up-your-anonymity-for-"safety"')
What if I get 'blacklisted'? How long does my name stay on the list?
Can I SEE the list? Will they at least TELL me I'm on the list?
Wait a second... Am I on this list automatically, once my picture/ID is recorded? Before I've even done anything? (See previous line)
I'm assuming the Police would LOVE access to this list, so they'll have it, officially or not. (update: I just RTFA; YES, they can subpoena info from the list)
I'm assuming local employers will LOOOVE access to this list... A reason to fire current employees or refuse future candidates.
(update: after RTFA, and I love the comparison of this system with renting a car. I didn't know going to a bar was so serious...)
I was thinking the same thing, and was going to comment along those lines. But once this data has been collected & stored somewhere, what's to stop it from being subpoena, or otherwise leaked outside of it's intended use? It really does get down to the point that once someone starts taking notes on your behavior, that information can end up anywhere.
It's up to the consumer to discourage these practices with their dollars; the regulars with privacy in mind will either not be photographed or will find new watering holes.
You're pulled over one night for having a headlight out. A quick computer check shows you having visitied 4 bars that evening. Reasonable suspicion indicates that you may have been drinking. The cop's BAC meter is giving off-base responses, so the cop decides to exercise his perogative to take you in for suspicion of DWI.
You're taken to the county jail; a wrecker is dispatched to pick up your vehicle. You sit in the tank for several hours with all the other riff-raff, hoping to God no one takes a liking to your shoes. You're denied a phone call, because you haven't been booked yet. Finally, the jail supervisor gets to your case, but since it's been several hours, the supervisor decides if there was any alcohol before, it's all but metabolized, and there are bigger fish to fry in the tank with you. So they let you go.
Since you're downtown, you have to call a cab to take you to the wrecker station, which is of course all the way across town. After a hefty taxi fare, paid in cash, you walk up to the window to pick up your car. Oh, they tell you, you'll need a release from the PD to do that. Plus, we only take cash. By now dawn is breaking, and you wish to God you hadn't volunteered to be a designated driver for your friends.
I'll keep my tinfoil hat on, thank you very much.
The problem with all of this information collection isn't the immediate positive use of it, but rather the long term potential for abuse once the information is out there. What happens if you piss off a bartender at one of these bars because you were hitting on his girlfriend or tipped him badly? He could put a black mark in the system and you'd not be able to get into a number of bars.
Also, what if somebody just has one bad night where things got a little out of hand and they get a black mark in the system? Like most bars, regardless of who starts a fight will kick out everybody involved. So what if you just get caught up in something accidentally?
The problem with these systems isn't that they'll help a bar to stop the most egregious offenders, but rather the possibility that the system will, either through mistake or intention, ban the innocent for no good reason.
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In addition to simply demagnetizing the stripe, you could re-encode the stripe with new information...like you're really over 21...or your name is really something else, et cetera.
With barcodes you can always put a sticker with a new barcode over the original barcode. You would have to be looking really hard to notice, if done right (remember people printing up new UPC barcodes for Wal Mart products?)
The only type of machine readable document implement that is difficult to change are simultaneously human readable...the readable characters on the passport (found on the first page on most passports and have lots of little >>>>>>>> thingies) were originally conceived on a privacy basis, because people would always know what's encoded in their passports. I cite the security advantages, since a human can read what the machine can read, and its easy for a human to double check that.
Not that they would. When a human has a machine to read a document, they will almost always just trust what the machine says, and not check what the document says.
There are plenty of places Big Brother is urgently applicable today. Just not here.
Central to George Orwell's image is the notion of coercion. You are certainly coerced if the government requires you to participate in an invasive information system by law. And there are many ways you can experience more subtle coercion "by policy" as well... because you ostensibly have the freedom not to participate, but only in theory.
This seems like one case when this kind of technology is OK - because participating in it is something people can choose to do - or not - by exercising their options in a healthy, competitive marketplace.
For the sake of comparison, POTS telephone companies (regional monopolies; barrier to entry: illegal), or CPU companies (only two x86 players; barrier to entry: inconceivable) are not "healthy, competitive" marketplaces.
Monopolies like Microsoft requiring the installation and maintenance of DRM systems? Coercion, possible because of an (extremely) unhealthy marketplace.
Verizon saying "I'm going to sell your phone records to marketers?" Coercion. Where are your alternatives if you want to opt out?
But bars aren't like that at all.
I couldn't see myself going to any place that did this, but I don't think I could say they shouldn't be allowed to do it. Let them track and photograph their patrons in ways even the Vegas casinos won't do. No one forces you to go a bar. Opening a bar is within the grasp of many, many entrepeneurs. This means (within reason) you will be able to opt out. This kind of security measure should succeed, or fail (and who can guess which, in the end?), in that marketplace based on its merits.
What I worry about? If that's what it takes to keep bars running well, what does it say about our society?
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This way, any guy who works at the bar, or is friendly with the bouncer, can find out who that really hot chick is at the end of the bar. Get her home address, wait outsdie for her when she gets home. Call her to say hi.
Dont tell me it wont be used for this. I used to work someplace making IDs on a computer system. The security guys would come in all the time and ask "Hey, girl with brown hair, blue eyes, in this building, whats her name?" Pull up the list of pictures, get the info. Then they can go look at the security system to look up her schedule, then just happen to meet her going in or coming out of the building. Theres a very, very thin line between manufactruing an excuse to meet a cute girl, and stalking.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
At University of Illinois in Champaign, most bars had a variation of this: They had a camera at the door, it'd grab a picture of your face, then they'd slide your ID under another camera that went onto the same video tape - thus giving them a picture of the ID *AND* of you.
Why?
So when the cops showed up and busted underagers who got rid of their fake IDs when they saw the cops coming (which would be wise, since using one in IL gets you a 1 year suspension of your license), the bar could point to the video tape and say "We checked this person, they gave us this ID, and yes, they look like the picture on the ID", thus sparing the bar the nasty fine and potential liquor license revokation from letting in someone underage.
paintball
I applaud you for being one of the FEW americans who actually understand that.
Well, according to the article, not too many Canadian realize it, either. And yes, I would love for that to happen in our own country, but us Americans are too paranoid about blaming drugs/music/TV/popstars/etc. for our children's dirty little minds. However, with Canada and England doing the same thing so quickly, it's only a matter of time before it will happen here.
Zodiac Survey
I would be surprised to find out that you live in Vancouver. I have been to many bars and clubs and there was never any hostility from anyone, not even in neighborhoods of 'lesser quality housing'. It was always very laid back people having a good time.
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