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Hard Drive Capacity Confusion, Lucidly Explained

mrklin writes "James Wiebe of wiebetech.com has written a clear example of how hard drive capacity is calculated (PDF file) by hard drive manufacturers (base 10) and OS (base 2). He failed to name how the capacity should be described, though."

19 of 482 comments (clear)

  1. Does it matter anymore? by Dancin_Santa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    With storage prices falling through the floor, does it matter to anyone except whiny nerds whether the byte counts are done in base 10 or base 2?

    In the words of William Shatner, "Get a life!"

    1. Re:Does it matter anymore? by dtfinch · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm a whiny nerd, and it doesn't matter much to me whether hard disk manufactures define sizes in multiples of base 10 or base 1010.

      But I want to know how each drive handles error correction. A sector isn't REALLY 100000000 bytes when stored on disk, but has extra information to help it detect and correct most small errors. Some manufacturer could skimp on the error correction to increase storage capacity or reduce cost, but the drive would likely crap out sooner than others on the market.

    2. Re:Does it matter anymore? by |deity| · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Even the article states that you are losing 10% of the capacity you would expect. I think 10% is significant enough to complain about.

      The author at one point in the article says that operating systems have historically not documented how size is counted. Like the engineers at a drive manufacturing company aren't smart enough to know that if you calculate a kilobyte in base 2 you are going to calculate a megabyte, or gigabyte in base 2.

      Yes if you are smarter then your average computer user, which is to say smarter then a really dumb rock you should know that what's reported on a drive is not the actuall size.

      It still hacks me off. It's like a soda manufacturer deciding it's ok to redefine an ounce so that they can claim that their drink is larger then it is or just use a smaller container and claim it's still the same size.

      Does it matter, yes and it will matter more as storage capacity increases.

      If you use a computer it does all calculations in binary, it only makes sense for the capacity of the drive to be calculated in binary.

      --
      Environmentalists are their own worst enemy. ~tricklenews.com
    3. Re:Does it matter anymore? by OverlordQ · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Like the engineers at a drive manufacturing company aren't smart enough to know that if you calculate a kilobyte in base 2 you are going to calculate a megabyte, or gigabyte in base 2.

      That's where the standard agrument fails, because mega, kilo, giga, terra, et al are base 10 prefixes not base 2.

      --
      Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
    4. Re:Does it matter anymore? by Bi()hazard · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is a big issue for those who use RAID arrays based on intercahngeable hard drives. This is a common practice among large corporations, and drive manufacturers' nonstandard descriptions of sizes make it very difficult to mix manufacturers within an array.

      Buying from company A gives you 120GB=120 billion bytes, and buying from B gives you 120GB=128,762,169,664 bytes. If we have an array of 10 disks at the larger size and swap one out for the smaller size, the disks cannot be treated as interchangeable anymore, and the array loses much of its efficiency, or is forced to waste the extra space on the larger drives.

      The bottom line is that this costs money. Companies are locked into using one supplier and must pass up opportunities for good deals. The lack of flexibility and occasional screw ups by interns who don't check which drive is which uses up the IT department's time.

      Nobody really cares whether a GB is 1 billion or a funny number that comes from base 2, but a lot of people with a lot of money care whether 1 GB from company A equals 1 GB from company B. One of these days the industry will have to standardize.

      It's just as bad as monitor sizes-they measure those at funny angles and have different sized black margins around the viewable area. Just a couple months ago a manager here ordered a new 19 inch monitor and was so annoyed by the margins that he sent it back to be replaced. We gave him an old, lower quality monitor with the settings adjusted to minimize the margin. Some guy in IT took the new one home with him, and wrote it off as trashed defective equipment.

    5. Re:Does it matter anymore? by Theatetus · · Score: 4, Insightful
      But the point remains that the HD sellers are using the wrong count and the question that comes to the person who knows is "why?". The answer is simple - to mislead

      Maybe I'm being a naive optimist here, but there seems to be a much more sensible reason:

      The way memory is addressed makes it convenient to use the base-2 units.

      Storage is not addressed in a way that makes it particularly convenient to use base-2 units.

      Got that? That's why we use them on memory. Storage is not addressed that way, so like everything else we tend to use base 10 to describe it.

      --
      All's true that is mistrusted
    6. Re:Does it matter anymore? by ergo98 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "In reality it seems that they want to sell product with decimal G capacities but have customers believe they are buying disk with conventionally calculated capacity and hoping that no one would notice."

      This is all so absolutely ridiculous. Firstly, about 99% of people on the streets, including most computer users, aren't mentally calculating the power of 2 capacities when you say that a hard-drive has 40GB, or a memory module has 512MB -- Instead they mentally have an awareness that 40GB is "big, but 80GB is better", and "512MB is good". I highly doubt they're going to get their shiney new drive, and DRATS! - they have 42949672960 of virus filled emails to fit in there, but instead they only got 40000000000.

      Secondly, hard drive manufacturers, as a general rule, have used the power of 10 rule since before I first became interested in computers about 18 years ago - this is the standard, and if you haven't read the byline "GB refers to 1,000,000,000 bytes" then you just haven't been looking.

      This whole campaign is just contrived and attention seeking nonsense. I suspect that someone just finished their "Computers 101" course, and they think they've discovered an amazing fraud being perpetrated upon the public by those dastardly harddrive manufacturers.

  2. Gigi? Nah Gibi? Nah by l810c · · Score: 5, Funny
    How much Porn will it hold?

    This one will hold 30 days of Porn

    Now, this one here will hold 45 days of Porn

    Break it down to something Everyone understands

    1. Re:Gigi? Nah Gibi? Nah by orthogonal · · Score: 4, Funny

      How much Porn will it hold?

      This one will hold 30 days of Porn


      Now, now, now, this is just wrong!

      Everybody knows you don't measure porn in days.

      True porn afficianados know that you measure porn in terms of the amount of keyboard cleaning required.

    2. Re:Gigi? Nah Gibi? Nah by darkov · · Score: 5, Funny

      Your idea is good, but it needs a unit since "days of porn" clumsy. I propose the "ejac" which is one days worth of porn. Larger units are derived using the usual base 10 system:

      decaejac
      kiloejac
      megaejac
      gigaejac ... and so on

      This is a handy unit since it can be converted into time (1 ejac = 20 minutes), liquid volume (1 ejac = 10cc), sound volume (1 ejac = 90dB) and distance (1 ejac = 75cm).

      If we all pull together, with this as our common goal, we can make the ejac a truly universal unit.

  3. Ditch binary units by achurch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As far as ordinary users (i.e. anyone who doesn't have to deal with TLBs, memory pages, disk sectors and the like) are concerned, there's really no reason left to use binary units; 2^9 bytes per sector, 8 sectors per filesystem block, etc. are all low-level conveniences that the user shouldn't have to even notice. Though I personally am too used to the binary units to switch easily, the vast majority of users probably wouldn't even notice the difference, aside from their computers finally reporting the right size for their hard disks. Granted, overcoming the huge momentum for binary units will be difficult, but one could always consider it practice for getting the USA to accept metric.

    1. Re:Ditch binary units by Monkelectric · · Score: 4, Informative
      Huh? no reason to use binary units? What are you smoking and can I have some? :)

      The reason we use binary units is for engineering reasons ... Back in the way back time there was no such thing as a disk drive, and there was only ram. Ram had/has to be made in a power of two because it has to completley fill its address space so the NEXT ram chip begins where the other ends. Otherwise you'd have holes in your address space.

      --

      Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

  4. WTF? by MarvinIsANerd · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is not a matter of base-10 vs base-2... a base-10 number is written as "2875" for example. A base-2 number is written as "10100110". A base-16 number is written as "8A3F0"...

    This is a matter of UNITS used - like inches vs. feet, or in this case GiB vs GB.

    Geez, get the terminiology right...

  5. 6 pages?! by TwistedGreen · · Score: 5, Informative
    The 6 pages of the article, summarized in three lines:
    Hard drive manufacturers measure capacity in multiples of 1,000,000,000 (10^9) Bytes.
    Operating systems measure capacity in multiples of 1,073,741,824 (2^30) Bytes.
    Some people get confused because they both call it a gigabyte.
    I really don't think this is such a big deal. OSes are started to specify the proper GiB instead of GB, so there shouldn't be a problem anymore.
  6. Re:Base 2 by EvanED · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ah, and therein lay the crux of the matter. The problem is that *everywhere else* kilo-, mega-, etc. prefix units (to stop the megapolis argument) they denote powers of 10. A megavolt is a million volts. A kilometer is 1000 meters. A gigahertz is a billion hertz. Only in computer science have people redefined the units to refer to anything other than powers of 10. *That* is what the debate revolves around, and that is what is IMO the mistake of people early on. The solution is to make kilobytes officially be 1000 bytes (as the IEC has) and use a different unit for the powers of two.

  7. I've said this before by Sunlighter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    About two years ago there was a debate about this. Can't remember the details of that debate. Maybe it was when those "mebibytes" were introduced. I still say now what I said then.

    I think there should be "short megabytes" and "long megabytes", and the same for gigabytes. Like this:

    • One short ton is 2,000 pounds and one long ton is 2,240 pounds.
    • One short kilobyte is 1,000 bytes and one long megabyte is 1,024 bytes.
    • One short megabyte is 1,000,000 bytes and one long megabyte is 1,048,576 bytes.
    • One short gigabyte is 1,000,000,000 bytes and one long gigabyte is 1,073,741,824 bytes.
    • One short terabyte is 1,000,000,000,000 bytes and one long terabyte is 1,099,511,627,776 bytes.
    • And so forth...

    Then all we need is to get hard drive manufacturers and OS vendors to state whether they are using short or long tons, er, gigabytes.

    As to abbreviations, take Donald Knuth's suggestion. Use the capital letter twice to suggest binaryness. 1 MMB = one long megabyte; 1 GGB = one long gigabyte. I like this much better than the now-standardized MiB men-in-black abbreviation for long megabytes (which are still not called long megabytes in the standard, they are called mebibytes, which sounds silly and no one uses it).

    Who's with me?

    --
    Sunlit World Scheme. Weird and different.
  8. Re:But seriously by dtfinch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Those are too hard to pronounce. Who not just distinguish them by prefixing the metric ones with the word "metric", as we do with tons and metric tons.

    kilobyte = 1024 bytes
    metric kilobyte = 1000 bytes

  9. article sidesteps the entire issue by drfireman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The only relevant issue is the meaning of words like kilobyte, megabyte, and gigabyte. Wiebe describes how you can arrive at two different answers for drive capacity depending on how you define the word "gigabyte," but does so completely uncritically. For example, he describes the drive manufacturer logic and writes that "the drive's claim of 123.5 GB is verified with this simple mathematical formula." But the issue is what the word "gigabyte" means, and the formula presented sheds no light on the word's conventional usage or etymology. I personally was raised to use these terms to correspond the numbers that are powers of two. Wiebe doesn't give me any point of reference to shed light on whether it's reasonable to use the meanings drive manufacturers do. (Of course I already know the answer, but that's beside the point.)

    Wiebe uses some other odd logic, exemplified in point 3.7. He writes that the consumer was never cheated, because a drive advertised as having a capacity of 123.5GB had just that in "decimal based" capacity. This is a bizarre way to characterize the complaints. Consumers who believe they were cheated aren't claiming they didn't get 123.5GB for any definition of the word gigabyte. They're claiming they didn't get 123.5GB by the conventional definition of the word as commonly used in connection with computers. In my view, they're right, although I don't personally get too upset about it.

  10. Re:Naming reference by Piquan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But personally I strongly reject this "kibibytes" attempt at CS revisionist history. Stick with what CS people have been using as measurements for decades, I say,

    Why shouldn't CS people stick to what the rest of the sciences have been using for decades, that "kilo" means 1000? This CS thing of making "kilo" stand for 1024 is an attempt at revisionist history.

    There's always another perspective.