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U.S. Supreme Court To Rule On Online Porn Law
froggle2003 writes "Sites like goodfig.org and NEWS.com.au are among the first to report that the U.S. Supreme Court has decided to rule on the constitutionality of the Child Online Protection Act (COPA). The COPA was passed in 1998 in an effort to crack down on sites that don't block porn from children. It calls for 6 months in jail and $50,000 in fines for first-time violaters. Opponents of the COPA led by the ACLU are quick to note that the COPA makes criminals of many individuals using the internet for legitimate purposes such as providing information on anatomy, gynecology, safe-sex advice, etc."
Opponents of the COPA led by the ACLU are quick to note that the COPA makes criminals of many individuals using the internet for legitimate purposes such as providing information on anatomy, gynecology, safe-sex advice, etc."
But porn (for adults) is a legitimate purpose. Unsavory, perhaps, but legitimate.
I don't know if this is a cleat-cut as it could be, and the point about this filtering out sites on safe-sex is slightly preterbing.
The main thing is "children" is a very broad term, and while I wouldn't want a 4 year-old viewing information on contraceptives, I would if they are at an age where this information is relevant and important.
I think the definitions need to be tidied more than they are now, and also feel that this could possibly include sites to do with mutilation etc. With some of the horrific things out there, a child could easily see something really traumatic.
I don't know, this just feels a little like all the SPAM legislation, a nice idea but something which is going to take much more than a law to counteract.
I can't help but feel that better parenting would help. After all there are schemes in the UK which are predominantly to educate parents to watch what their children are doing etc.
People involved with the bill can be found with this press release.
COPA has its own site and a commision that put it together. Interestingly, they link to a bunch of research papers (many pdfs) Hearings and meetings too. Just skimming, it appears they made something of at least an attempt at a balanced inqury.
And what karma whoring post would be complete without a link to the statute?
This was a typical example of the government imposing unenforcable rules on the internet in the classical why-can't-they-just-hold-their-ID-up-to-the-screen style. Almost never before the internet came along did you have people who genuinely wanted to act legally but had no idea how. Credit-card verification is out, kids can have credit/debit cards at 13 now. No using checking accounts for verification, those can be had by kids even younger. Driver's licenses? Not nationalized. I guess until a generation which grew up with computer-in-hand runs the legislature, we'll be seeing more and more of this absurdity...
Actually I find that american culture tries too hard to keep thier children "innocent". They do this by "protecting" them from the harmless truth. And what purpose does it serve? Maybe pornography will keep some of those hormones back at home, and out of school. There is more good then bad in porn.
1. The actresses make money to support them.
2. Look at other countries and how they deal with porn, and how many rapes they have. I dont think that a sex open society is going to have as many rapes as one that isnt.
3. Its good clean fun...... Admit it, we all know you like porn, dont deny. and if you do deny(and your a man) then likelyhood is that your a liar.
Besides shouldnt we be more busy protecting our kids from voilence than from porn. Whats worse, having sex, or killing people. I would like to have any person prove to me why pornography is morally wrong, and no "they will become a sexual deviant" bullshit.
Ben Barber
Here's the BBC's story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3191676.stm.
The article also contains some interesting links, to the Internet Watch Foundation, ACLU, etc.
There are huge freedom of speech implications here. I'm not condoning pornographic content where it's likely to be seen by young, impressionable kids but it seems to me that you can't truly have freedom of speech unless you recognise everyone's freedom of speech, and not just freedom for those you deem morally or politically acceptable.
Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. This looks like one of those times.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
What I fail to understand is how they imagine to enforce this kind of law unless the US efficiently filter out all Internet traffic in and out of the country.
I am Danish and I am absolutely positive I can put all the porn (using models aged 18 and above)on my web-site that I like (which means zero - but that's besides the point) and I am equally positive that every online person in the US can access that page. Now - this is perfectly legal and acceptable in the country where my web-server is located, so I absolutely fail to understand the relevance of these laws.
Seems like an incredible waste of resources and energy implementing something that won't provide any child protection at all.
Hey! Are you trying to imply that pr0n isn't a legitimate online activity?
Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
It really bothers me when the government tries to legislate morality. Everything is up for interpretation, and what I may feel is ok for my child to view may not be the same as what the legislature has in mind. Reading through the COPA, it has vague statements such as:
(C) taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for minors.
or this:
(A) the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find, taking the material as a whole and with respect to minors, is designed to appeal to, or is designed to pander to, the prurient interest
What is art is certainly debateable. Magazines such as Playboy come across as more artsy to me than pornographic. Although, I'm sure if we apply "contemporary community standards" the law would be in disagreement with me. As for how they are to attain those standards, or whether the opinions of the community should dictate what every kid is exposed to is questionable at best.
- b
I do realize that it's important for sites to provide disclaimers, but shouldn't parents have the ultimate responsibility? Kids shouln't be allowed to browse alone, if you ask me.
.: Max Romantschuk
Just because some parents start to let their kids freely roam the web, doesn't mean we can prevent people from freeely posting whatever they want (ass long as copyrights are respected). It is their responsibiliry to supervise their children, not the web's. Like Mark Twain said: Censorship is like telling a man cannot have a steak because a baby cannot chew it.
There are 2 kinds of people in this world: Those who write in decimal and those who don't
That doesn't work, yet apparently a little button that says "I agree" on a software licence is a binding contract. Odd how that works.
I'd be in favour of making it an offence to allow a minor unsupervised access to the Internet. We didn't have such things when I was a kid. It didn't do me any harm. Of course, alongside that would have to be making it an offence to deny adults access to "objectionable" content.
There are many districts in many cities where all sorts of stuff goes on that you wouldn't want young kids being around. Solution? Don't let your kids go there, at least, not on their own.
We live in an adult world. The Internet is an adult invention. Nobody ever intended it to be suitable for children. Deal with it. For crying out loud! You can't watch certain films till you're 12 or 15; you can't buy fags or have sex till you're 16; you can't drink booze, bet on sporting events or watch other people having sex till you're 18. Anybody complaining about adults smoking, drinking, gambling, having sex and watching certain kinds of films is rightly denounced. What's to complain about? Sooner or later you'll be old enough.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
OK, I agree that pr0n is, in theory, fun and not inherently evil. You or I can surf for naughty pictures and so on with few harmful effects. But, let's be honest, I wouldn't really want a child to view some of the stuff I see.
Why? Context. I understand that the "freaky weird" stuff is a part of natural human sexuality - hermaphrodites & dwarves need love too after all! As a well-adjusted adult, I understand that group sex is just another sexual option if done safely and sanely. But... a child might not. I think kids need to go through a GOOD "mommy and daddy love each other very much and sometimes..." talk, or a GOOD sex ed program (none of this abstinence-only Jesus bullshiat), before they start seeing the less vanilla stuff that's out there. Kids are really impressionable - it's better for them to develop their own ideas and preferences about sexuality, rather than be heavily influenced by whatever variety of pornography they're first exposed to.
Which is not to say that censorship isn't evil. Parents/teachers have to do their best to guide kids' online activity and that's about the best we can justly expect in our society.
Freedom: "I won't!"
Whats worse, having sex, or killing people. I would like to have any person prove to me why pornography is morally wrong
;-)
OK, I'll take the trollbait.
What's worse? Neither, when 'having sex' is in the context of pornography. Both are about the same thing. They are about the objectification of other people.
Murder (notice I did not say killing) is the ultimate act of human objectification. It occurs only after a person has decided that another person is too much of an inconvenience or annoyance to let that other person continue to live. The victim is seen only as a means to an end and the murderer decides the means to his end, in this case, has outlived its usefulness. The victim is objectified.
Pornography (notice I did not say sex) is the ultimate expression of human-as-object. In pornography, we take one or more people and show them treating each other like objects upon which to achieve pleasure...ie, the participants in pornography demonstrate that they believe the other people in the scene are means to an end (the ends being self-gratification).
Under no circumstances should we ever forget that other people are ends in and of themselves and not a means to an end. When someone else annoys us or cuases us problems, we must remind ourselves that unlike a tool or other object in the world, these 'annoyances' or 'roadblocks' are people and are not here to serve us or anyone else. Likewise, when someone entices us or titilates us, we must remind ourselves that unlike a sextoy, these 'titillations' are people. They are someone's daughter or son. Even when they choose to act like a tool for our pleasure, we should never treat them like they are. They are worth more than that. Consensual sex isn't necessarily moral sex. And filming it so that others can also objectify the participants only makes it yet less moral.
Furthermore, even if you totally disregard the idea that other people are exactly as valuable as you and that you are too valuable to demean yourself, you must at least acknowledge that what we see and what we experience does affect who we are and who we become. That, in fact, is how we become who we are. We are an amalgamation of our nature and our experiences, with a dash of human spirit thrown in to offset the mix. When our experiences are pornographic, it affects us. Like it or not, there is no reputable psychiatrist who would suggest otherwise. Watching pornography does change who we are as does everything else we do and experience. The question is not "Does it affect who we are?" but rather "How does it affect who we are?" I hope you aren't going to argue that it affects us in a good way?!?
-Tom
-Tom
I remember a discussion a while back, after Starship Troopers was shown on television in the U.S. (USA network, I believe, so it was cable, not broadcast - although I don't see why that matters anymore).
There is a scene nearing the end where two characters have sex. In the uncut movie they show the breasts of the female character while they are in their tent. The next scene they are attacked by "bugs", and she gets ripped in half. Now, when it was shown on TV, they cut the showing of the breasts, and happily showed her being ripped in half.
Unbelievable.
I truly believe all of the anti-sex in religion is due to the ugly men (and often enough women) who weren't getting any and decided it was wrong. Even now I see the old fat women at church socials (not that I've gone latley), a much higher percentage of ugly than the general population, and it strikes me that I must be right.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
It seems that a lot of people are just flat out unaware of the scientific reasons (well... as far as psychology is a science) behind the 'keep kids away from porn' argument.
Children do not have the cognitive maturity to understand what it is they're looking at. Exposing them to it when they are too young to understand it warps their perceptions and confuses their understanding of a relationship. This is a fundamental truth.
For example - a 3 to 4 year old believes they can do anything... literally. In their mind they can climb as fast and as high as any world class rock climber. They'll believe this even after they've fallen off a 2 foot high chair 10 times in a row. They'll believe it in the face of every scrap of empirical evidence to the contrary, and if you tell them they can't they'll just try harder.
4 year olds can't lie - they believe you know the truth even before you ask the question. They don't understand that their thoughts are private to them, and even if you try to explain it to them, they still won't make the connection.
Sexual maturity starts between 9 and 14 (if I remember right), and it's a natural process that they go through with their peers all the way up through adulthood (19 to 22). They become progressively more curious as they get older, and willing to experiment. This provides normal healthy development, and they work it out by talking with thier peers (not you, as many parents would like to believe). Porn throws that development off a cliff - most will end up thinking that sex IS the relationship, and if they don't get it from their significant other, they get seriously confused. This confusion is manifested in everything from why doesn't he/she like me to violence (defense against rejection) and force. It also results in a fair amount of alienation from their peers (slut for girls / pervert for guys), which aggravates the confusion and reduces the pool of peers they can talk to about it (or are willing to talk to). It's also not something that works itself out when they get older, it's a belief system that's pretty hard to break.
So you see, it's not a morality thing, it's a social impact thing. Children should be protected from porn.
That doesn't mean censorship, it just means take reasonable steps to keep kids out - it's the beaded curtain at the video store or the entrance ID check at the local strip club. I'd say it's pretty simple - self regulation and common sense. If you try to pull the free speech defense when you're running a free porn site without a barrier to entry, your... screwed.