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Stealth Computers: NY Times on Mini ITX Modding
securitas writes "What's smaller than a breadbox? Or a toaster? Or a teddy bear? The New York Times has just discovered mini-ITX based computers (Google /CNET mirror, minus the pictures). It's a nice overview of the mini-ITX scene and suggests that small form computers are a hot growth area while the traditional PC business languishes."
...traditional PC languishes
What the heck? Pc business is growing, not too fast, but there are more and more PCs sold each year. Whatever product you come up with for post-PC era, PC kills it from the price standpoint. Network computer, dedicated e-mail devices, Internet-enabled frames, image viewers you hook up to a PC - all crushed by the PC.
Nader-2004
Things I would like to see.
A new Linux distrubution, one aimed at including the most efficient
programs currently being developed: Blackbox, Thunderbird, Firebird, Dillo,
etc. Debian C3?
A 2.6 kernel running on these things so they're more desktop resonsive, work on swsup to be stable enough that the computer will always be instant-on available, thus
never needing a reboot.
Start a project that aims to develop extremely efficient programs designed
to run very well with slow procs like these. Hell if you can web browse
on a C64, this can be done.
If word of this can get out, then more people will question the Intel and
Microsoft monopoly.
Any other suggestions?
--
For my first all-new PC in about a decade I wanted something that had good performance, all the various external ports (usb, 1394, audio, svideo) that I might ever want, and that was also semi-portable. A Shuttle sn41g2 fills the role nicely, with Nvidia video built in, a 2.5 Ghz Athlon, and a DVD writer. There's also an AGP slot if I ever want to get better video, and a PCI slot that I'll probably use for a TV-tuner card. It was a breeze to put together, actually easier than the larger cases I've dealt with in the past. And Linux (Gentoo) runs fine on it.
Just before buying, I had second thoughts, and checked out the price of a Dell system. They start at around $400, around $230 less than I spent. But... that's with only 256Mb memory, no floppy, and the CD wasn't even a writer (which I didn't think you could buy anymore). "Upgrading" all those thing brought the price considerably higher than what I paid, and then I'd end up with a system with unknown pieces that might not play well with my choice of OS.
The first time I saw one I thought I was looking at a desktop stereo -- you know, the boxy plastic-and-chrome kind you'd put in an office. I didn't believe it was a computer until I got a look at the connector array in the back.
And that was without putting it in an ET doll or a fishtank.
I want to get my hands on one of these. With a wireless ethernet card and a set of speakers hooked to a built-in sound card you could make a very nifty wireless MP3/streaming audio player -- one that the wife wouldn't object to having in the living room.
Someone you trust is one of us.
I applaud any company that is reducing the size of the components that we need in computers. While I'm not one to try and hide my computer in weird objects, the smaller the computer the more likely it will move into the living room as suggested.
My only reservation is the fact that this technology may lack the ability to upgrade, quite similiar to what we find with laptops.
That aside the PC industry has been pushing on with faster and bigger components (CPU, RAM) every few months, in an effort to stay afloat. The thing is that I still have a dual 166 which works quite nicely ( if a little noisily), under my desk. My point is that we have not needed to upgrade our computer half as much as we have.
Yeah sure those of us that want to do funky stuff like hardcore gaming, or video editing might be an exception, but for my dad who's sole computing experience is checking his hotmail account and typing up documents, this is far from necessary.
You're neglecting the Wow Factor. Wow Factor is street cred among most geeks. As an avid case modder (I re-use old parts though, I usually don't buy new), half the fun is having someone say "that's a computer?". (Please be gentle to my very low bandwidth - personal DSL - server) You can see two basic examples of my own work making odd firewalls here. They're nothing special, but I get the "that's a computer" stuff all the time about these two and they aren't even the good ones, they just happen to be the two I made for my own use.
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
I have three of the mini-ITX's in a rack that I made for $6 worth of home depot parts. I use them as diskless nodes. Total cost each is around $180, this includes board, power supply, ram, and network cable. The entire rack fits on top of one of my towers.
They take load off my desktop box by doing things like DNS, httpd, dhcpd, fetchmail, procmail, qmail, postgres, etc...
However I would like to see them move to gigabit ethernet.
For the robot geeks these boards offer a lot
After reading a lot of info about the various mini-ITX boards, cases, and so on, I settled on this configuration:
The total was less than $500, and I could have reduced it some more if I'd been willing to place orders with 3 suppliers, rather than getting everything from one place (logicsupply.com).
While this machine is underpowered for a lot of computing tasks, and is a joke for playing games on, it should do just fabulously as a SMB/NFS file server, web server for pictures of the new baby, and so on. I'm downloading the Fedora beta (Severn) as we speak.
The total power draw for this machine ought to be about 30W. Even at inflated California prices, that's less than $5/month to run. Plus, since the motherboard and case are both fanless, it should run very very quietly, and should be small enough to just tuck away on a shelf somewhere.
Now I get to wait anxiously and see if my expectations match reality.
They were referring to me.
Nader-2004
Only influential to server bandwidth.
No, they need to wait two years til the NYT discovers it, and THEN report it.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
This whole post is FUD or a troll... point by point:
Mini ITX is great... really... I mean, for $2000 I can build myself a Mini-PC that is kick ass (well, shitty video card, ac97 audio, integrated LAN)
I built my Mini-ITX for $480 with an ATI TV Wonder. Had I wanted to shell out another $100 I could've had it with an ATI Radeon 8500 AIW, which I would certainly not call shitty. And this box has remote keyboard, mouse, remote control, and DVD player included.
but if I spend $1000, I can have a kick ass PC, with the ability to expand it in the future!!!
In the theoretical world where I bought an ATI Radeon instead of a TV Wonder, I spent $400 less than you for the same thing. Of course a mini-ITX is expandable. It has PCI and USB 2.0. Sure it doesn't support AGP... but if you don't NEED AGP, that's not really a problem is it? It doesn't ALWAYS have to be JUST about framerates, people.
what is it with constantly trying to adapt an x86 architecture to solve all the real world problems out there? Whether you agree or not, the x86 is a PC solution, stop putting them in pagers, phones, cars, and whatever else...
x86 has a choice of robust and powerful operating systems that many people have lots of good experience on, as well as lots of cheap (in many cases free) easy to understand and powerful development choices.
Embedded architectures are limited to one or two scaled down flaky operating systems that most programmers have little to no experience with, and the development platforms are almost universally a barrier to entry in terms of cost, support, and functionality.
You tell me which one you'd rather work on?
Mini ITX is crazy, it prevents you from customizing the PC the way most PCs can be.
How so? Oh I see you list some points... let's look at them shall we?
You have limited space for expansion slots
2 PCI plus USB. With the number of integrated devices, you don't need more... especially if you opt for USB audio and bulk devices.
logistical problems with cooling
How can one possibly call a processor putting off 13W of heat a logistical problem with cooling? When I built my Mini-ITX I literally slapped the thing together. I didn't put a single extra fan in it. And it runs not only cool but quiet as well. The warmest part is the power brick which is OUTSIDE THE CASE... not really a problem in my book...
and adding storage/optical drives
I have one hard drive and one DVD drive in my Mini-ITX. Yes, I am out of room in my case. But I could've opted for the two-3.5" bay case for just a few extra dollars. But you don't need it. The Mini-ITX is supposed to be a second computer, not a first computer. Or its for the non-computer enthusiast who just wants a computer thats non-obtrusive and maybe a little stylish. In the first case, if you need extra storage, set up some server shares. In the second case I doubt the user is really thinking about one day adding a 500G drive...
and in the end the damn thing runs the same OS as your desktop, and is used the same way... WHY???
I beg to differ that it is used the same way. I use mine as a DVR. Others use them for jukeboxes, mixing computers, and even office tasks. While my main computer has to be mediocre at everything, my mini computer can afford to specialize and be very good at one or two tasks at the expense of others, because I have my main computer if there's something I need to do that it can't really handle.
There is a reason for the need of a small computer, and damnit, there is always a better more economical and practical solution than stripping an x86 to fit the criteria.
I would hardly call a mini-ITX a stripped x86. With onboard EVERYTHING, decent processor speeds (their design criteria was "good enough in a low-heat low-cost package", not "as fast as possible at whatever cost". I believe they succeeded), and industry-standard connectors it can do everything that any x86 can do. And do it cheaper and quieter.
I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
A true geek would never sexually reproduce, let alone have a girlfriend - everyone knows geeks just clone themselves using a RAID 1 DNA sequencer 3000 from thinkgeek.
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
In other news, motherboards "often" include CPUs. Meaning sometimes they don't. GHOST CPU! OooOOOOooOOO!!
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
Hell, who has mini-ITX hands? Not me. In fact, I want a case the size of a walk-in closet. I want to see everything at eye-level on the wall. I don't want to worry about bumping a ribbon cable and taking the CD-ROM drive offline. I want to be able to have lunch inside the case while I'm working on an upgrade. Yes, with a table and chair so I can put my stuff down. And I want a monitor inside the case so if I need to look up some jumper assignment or order parts I don't have to leave the case.
It's like cars. I like old cars, where you can practically sit in the engine bay while you work. Now to change the plugs in my car I have to remove the intake manifold and half the fuel injection harness. And damn if there isn't a computer under the hood too, so now I have to worry about bumping a ribbon cable lest I take the airbags or brakes offline.
Anyone who's truly a geek or just a regular slashdot reader already knows about case modding and the whole mini LAN brick size cases. HA, I have my copy of Maximum PC right next to me and every issue is about case modding, not to mention all the other case mod web sites.
I think the NY Times needs to do an article on phase cooling or water cooling.
Everytime I tell someone I have a watercooled case with water pumping through my system I get to see the largest eyes this side of the Mississippi.
120GB disk
Just any 120GB disk can be quite noisy.. here's a couple alternatives from storagereview.com's database:
Seagate Barracuda ATA V (120 GB ATA-100) - 37.8 Db
IBM Deskstar 120GXP (120 GB ATA-100) - 45.8 Db
Western Digital Caviar WD1200JB (120 GB ATA-100) - 47.3 Db
Decibel is a logarithmic scale unless you know, so this is a *lot*. Since the disk will be the noisyest part of the system, I'd definately go for a Seagate
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Why? Because they have "enough" space. I was planning to get one when I got my current PC, but it stopped on one thing only - the (then expensive) DVD writer. I knew I was getting one "soon" (I have one now), and there wasn't room for both my old CD-RW and my DVD reader.
Now, I would have. Two HDDs (no floppy as I never use it anyway), the 2x160gb Seagates I have now, would be plenty. Anything more could go in the hard disk rack in the server & mount them from there. You have your AGP slot for graphics, one expansion card (but pretty much all you can ask for on the mobo), fast processor and all that.
That, and an LCD to replace this 19" CRT. Why? Because neither got any style, and I don't mean to go down the case modding route. I've got the performance I want now, what I miss is style. Something that looks small & unintrusive, not something that looks like it's about to make the desk it's sitting on cave in.
That is, as soon as I get a job, sigh...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I've owned about 7 mini-ITX boxes, and 3 of them have had motherboard flaws when I unpacked them (2 had bad network ports, and one had no USB). Another one worked for a month or so before the network port went bad. Still another only boots about 2 out of every three times I push the power button on. I end up having to use the one PCI slot for an extra network card just to get the network to work. Has anyone else experienced issues like this?
I am not one to give up easily on something like this. The form factor and lower power consumption of these boards is very cool. But I've given up on Via's EPIA and EPIA-M.
Instead of the EPIA platform, I'm now deploying servers based on the Total Impact BriQ. And I'm much happier. I didn't need Firewire, USB (except for keyboard, and the BriQ has a serial port instead), or fancy graphics (BriQ has none, unless you count the VFD, heh). But they make slick servers.
And they run Debian/PPC nicely, but you have to use a network install to get it software on there.