Linux for Non-Profits?

Glowing Fish asks: "I am volunteering for a non-profit that is currently in the process of giving away grants of systems (some using Linux and some without an OS) to various non-profit organizations. One of the problems is that many of these organizations have a somewhat skewed version of what they need, thinking they need Pentium IV systems with 100s of megs of RAM with Windows XP installed. I have been given the job of politely explaining that for most non-profit organizations, it is not necessary to have this type of computing power. What is the best (and politest) way to explain to people that they don't really need this type of computing investment? Without Microsoft-bashing, how would you explain the ever spiraling relationship between RAM and OS bloat? What type of systems would you suggest to a non-profit organization for office work, and why?"

Comments

It's simple

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell em beggars can't be choosers, and this is the computer they're getting. If they can't deal with it, they can go elsewhere. This is what my parents told me, and I've turned out well.

Re:It's simple

[wolf-]

Arg. You beat me to that line.
And you are absolutely correct.

We get a lot of kit in from our small business customers at the end of a hardware cycle. Instead of just dumping them, we renew them and the company gets a charitable write off.

I remember one group that was real particular about what was donated. Today, they still only have one machine in their office. They turned down a series of PIII machines in excellent shape.

Their loss.

In today's world, a light office only requires a nice linux install and open office.

Re:It's simple

[Anonymous Coward]

Too true. People haven't a clue about their own computing needs most of the time. A few dozen P2 500mhz boxes more than met the needs of a local business I set up. For email, browsing, and office work you don't really need anything more. Although for using Open Office I would suggest a P3, just to make things a bit smoother. For the aforementioned setup Abiword and Gnumeric were used in OO's place. Works for them.

With proper advertising though I imagine that you could convince people that they need dual G5 workstations for even the lowliest secretary. People are sheep waiting to be sheared, how else do you explain colorized coins and the like?

Re:It's simple

[Anonymous Coward]

> In today's world, a light office only requires
> a nice linux install and open office. ...and someone to administrate them.

In my experience the computing requirements of a non-profit are just as vigorous as any non-tech business. Assuming that an organisation has heaps of time to play with old computers simply because it relies on the generosity of others is a mistake.

Non profit = need for free OS

[Kethinov]

Non profit organizations have no business going and buying expensive software like Windows. Unless they plan on using Warez, the obviously cheapest solution for an organization that probably won't have a lot of money lying around is to use Linux. Seems like common sence to me.

Re:Non profit = need for free OS

[Interruach]

Non-profits need to get the maximum amount of their money into doing what they do : if other solutions are better (Mac/Custom Hardware/Playstation) for their work they should get those.
Bear in mind that non-profits may rely on volunteer computer support, who are likely to be less adept at linux or other OSS than Windows. Plus if you force unsuitable things on people they will hate it.
If I were you (parent) I would get people to bid for computer roles - EG - Office desktop machine, accounts computer, fileserver, webbrowser. Allocate them virtual credit and tell them they can have 4 machines with XP on p4 3.2GHZ's or they can have 20 linux machines with OOo, webbrowsing etc etc.

Re:Non profit = need for free OS

[sahala]

Non profit organizations have no business going and buying expensive software like Windows. Unless they plan on using Warez, the obviously cheapest solution for an organization that probably won't have a lot of money lying around is to use Linux. Seems like common sence to me.

You state this as if it's a hard rule, but it's clear that you haven't done that much work with non-profit organizations. Non-profits work a little differently than for-profit companies. Although arguably they should be run like a business (in terms of accountability, etc), non-profits will sometimes apply for a technology grant or have access to some other public fund to provide for their tech needs. They'll typically draft a proposal that states the amount they need ($10k, $20k, whatever) and some governing body decides how much of this to provide. By pulling the right strings it's quite possible for a non-profit to order a fleet of high-end Dell workstations with Windows XP installed, complete with support. Also consider that they may obtain hardware/software for free (as a charitable donation) from a business, which in turn may have strings attached.

Now obviously they could save a bit by using Linux, but this opens up a support problem. Yes, I realize that there are for-pay Linux support organizations out there, and some computer vendors will bundle in Linux installation support with hardware sales, but these instances are unfortunately more rare.

In an ideal world, yes they would run Linux. In fact from a philosophical point of view all non-profits out to. But it's not an obvious solution to use Linux from a management/org point of view. For that matter most non-profits focus on their core mission/goals, and could care less about Linux vs. Windows.

Re:Non profit = need for free OS

[sql*kitten]

Unless they plan on using Warez, the obviously cheapest solution for an organization that probably won't have a lot of money lying around is to use Linux. Seems like common sence to me.

Mmm, yes, and thereby restrict their pool of volunteers to the Unix-savvy? Out in the real world, we have a thing called a cost-benefit analysis. This means that cheap isn't always better if cheap can't do what you want it to. You think a non-profit has the time and resources to retrain people who in all likelihood already know Windows and MS Office in Linux?

Sure, it's possible to produce great-looking documents with TeX or troff. But it's possible to produce documents 90% as good with 10% of the effort in Word. Open office is all well and good, but it lacks key features of MS Office and StarOffice, such as Windows metrically-equivalent fonts.

Someone who wants the best of both worlds is probably best off with Sun's Mad Hatter package. Yes it costs money, but it just goes to show, if you want a professionally-integrated system, you need to pay professionals for it.

Re:Non profit = need for free OS

[nmos]

Mmm, yes, and thereby restrict their pool of volunteers to the Unix-savvy?

Have you actually USED a modern Linux Distro? It's not any harder (or really even much different) than Windows for the sorts of things these folks normally do. That's especially true for non profits where they hardly ever even have two machines with the same flavor of Windows on them.

Open office is all well and good, but it lacks key features of MS Office and StarOffice, such as Windows metrically-equivalent fonts.

Someone who wants the best of both worlds is probably best off with Sun's Mad Hatter package.

Ok, now I KNOW you've never actually tried any of the stuff you're talking about. If anything Mad Hatter is a step BACK in terms of usability IMHO.

Rather Simple.

[wolf-]

We are going to GIVE you a leg up on technology.

Beggars cannot be choosers.

If you don't like what we are offering, get stuffed.

Sometimes the truth hurts but needs to be said.

If you want something else, go ask Bill to donate something to you.

Tell them the truth, simply.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about what they want the computer to do.

And while Intel, Microsoft hype might actually be accurate if they were buying the computer to play DooM 3, their functions are a little bit different.

It's like a car commercial, F350 are nice if you've got an gigantic boat to tow, and need to haul a ton construction materials while having room for your diamond plate tool boxes, but if you just need to get around town, buy groceries etc, it's not the best choice, and far from the best value.

Basically, you're selling computers. But in a really good way, your function is to find a solution that fits as opposed to pads your commision.

I might keep a record, formal is better, otherwise would probably work too, about common misgivings and misconceptions you're confronted with. Setup a laptop specifically to refute those, carry it with you, and become comfortable with the phrase, "Well...it just so happens...." Or send screen shots, whatever.

Re:Tell them the truth, simply.

[Uma Thurman]

Hardly anyone has a "gigantic" boat. Most of the time I see F350's towing rowboats.

Re:Tell them the truth, simply.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you don't live near Lake Washington then.

Re:Tell them the truth, simply.

[Anonymous Coward]

I really agree with this posting.

I would add however, that unless you're donating five or more machines to an organisation that knows how to handle them, your're not just providing computers but providing solutions.

One of the best ways to keep things workably simple is to use the old machines as thin clients, trying to have as robust as possible intranet or web-based apps.

If employees and voluteers can get produce and exchange documents via the web, then much time consuming configuration (on machines with questionable longevity) can be avoided.

Show a CPU monitor while they do office tasks

[linzeal]

Seup open office and have them do anything they can think of doing than show them that the CPU stays at a ~x% rate. That they have 8-12x more power than they need already.

Re:Show a CPU monitor while they do office tasks

[stile]

That won't work so well. They'll still see it spiking occasionally, because the CPU will do things as fast as it can. The point is that they don't NEED it to go as fast as it can, but I'd be willing to bet your little experiment wouldn't quite work.

All it would take would be one little 100% spike and the user would go "See?! I need 3.0ghz!". When possible, rig a demonstration, and when not, at least ensure that chance won't screw you.

Re:Show a CPU monitor while they do office tasks

[RevDobbs]

Yeah, that's all well and good, but these people aren't really going to realize what the squiggly line means. Showing them the CPU utilization is a waste of time, let along rigging a demo. I can already see their eyes glazzing over as soon as there's something other than Word, "The Internet", or Solitare on the screen.

On the other hand, I don't think it's a crime to be intentionally vauge of what you're giving these charaties, esp. if you're going to the trouble of doing the installs & LAN set-ups. Once they see it in working order, I don't see anyone clamoring to have their new tools taken back from them.

Cheap and effective...

[kenthorvath]

If I were introducing Linux to the newbie, and expected them to be productive, I would install Mandrake Linux, or Redhat Linux (depending on how much you expect them to want to install a posteriori, or in addition to what comes with the install CD's).

I would of course use OpenOffice.org, which has come quite a long way in terms of usability and compatibility (I even use it as my defacto word processor now).

I would splurge and buy Opera web browser for Linux, however, even though Mozilla is nice, I just find that Opera is REALLY nice - especiialy with the full scale zooming of text and images to a reasonable level. You don't even need to buy it, it is also ad supported if you prefer.

The Gimp is perfect for image manipulation and for designing graphics and things, depending on what your organization is going to be doing.

And evolution is the perfect replacement for Outlook, and even surpasses it in many areas.

Overall, any standard linux distro is going to come with most of this stuff and you shouldn't have any trouble deciding what you should and shouldn't need to install. It really is a simple decision to switch to linux, and if you need to have windows around for migration purposes, just keep a few PCs around just in case. It'll still be cheaper.

Perhaps you could say...

[Anonymous Coward]

"That is Windows XP, its just that some version boot with the Windows 3.1 screen".

and

"When they say 386, they really mean the brand new Pentium 386".

Re:Perhaps you could say...

[bhtooefr]

Oh (scroll down) yeah?

Re:Perhaps you could say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Even better. "It justs looks like Windows 3.1, and if you don't belive me check out the site at bootxp.net"

also

"We did this as a convience for your users, so they don't have to learn new technological interfaces."

What will they need the software to DO?

[DesScorp]

The first cardinal rule of informatin technology is that it's there serve us, and make things more productive (and preferably easier). If they have a requirement that mandates MS software, than that's that. If they're using Great Plains financial stuff, for instance, they have no choice.

Now, if they don't have any esoteric requirements, then your advocacy becomes much easier. Assuming that their needs are small, tell them:

* Older machines have plenty of computing power if they're not used for things like high end games or Photoshop.

* Linux and other free software comes with no strings attached (we're talking end user here, not code. No need to confuse them about that).

* That the free software is easy to use. Show them modern window managers and the Webmin app.

* Explain that Microsoft is not "computers" or the "Internet", and that many other platforms can fill their needs. This one is important. You'd be amazed how many people think you can't use the Internet without Windows.

* Demonstrate KDE/Gnome, OpenOffice, and Mozilla to them. Show them that they work pretty much like similar Windows up. Go through it with them from bootup to shutdown, to put them at ease and make them feel comfortable with the software.

* Explain that this kind of software comes from volunteers, and that, should they need help, or even some coding, that volunteer spirit might come into play. People are willing to work on their own time for a good cause.

* Point out the flexibility that this software gives them; freedom to use it however they like, with no worry of licensing issues, flexibility to expand their capabilities as they're able, without fear of the Business Software Alliance knocking on the door going "Let's see those licenses".

* Perhaps most importantly, point out the business that use Linux and other free software as successful examples, to stress that Linux/Open Source isn't a fringe product. When people see organizations they know about using Linux, it helps put them at ease.

* Point out the security benefits; far fewer vulnerabilities, and they won't be running virus traps.

* NICELY point out that "beggars can't be choosers". This is a fallacy, because they can choose not to use any computers at all. If you care about the mission of the organization, and you want them to adopt used computers and OS software to help them succeed, persuade them, don't deride them. As Winston Churchill said, "A fly will be more attracted to a spoonfull of sugar than a bucketfull of bile".

Microshaft offers substantial discounts to NP's

[cswingle]

I'm all for pushing Linux for all potential users, but non-profits can get Microshaft software at a **substantial** discount. They should still try to determine if the reduced cost is worth it, but the price you or I (don't) pay for Windoze and office applications from Micro$oft isn't what they're paying.

Re:Microshaft offers substantial discounts to NP's

[shaitand]

If all the microsoft software for the entire office costs $1, they would still have paid more for a very substantially inferior product for pretty much all uses.

Re:Microshaft offers substantial discounts to NP's

[MrResistor]

non-profits can get Microshaft software at a **substantial** discount.

That's true, but unfortunately it's often true in a "first one's free" sort of way.

Browse the slashdot archives, I think you'll find plenty of cases where free or heavily discounted MS solutions for schools and non-profits suddenly turned out to be not such a good deal.

Simple

[skinfitz]

Simply show them a lowish spec machine setup the way you would configure it and let them play with it for a bit. Explain the lack of cost - this normally gets people's attention.

Think like a non profit

[solman]

Computers are cheap, people are expensive.

Suppose a non-profit is using volunteers who are familiar with Windows. Do you force them to learn Linux? Not if you want to keep them. They're volunteering so they can feel good about themselves. One or two frustrating software problems can easily cancel this good feeling out.

Suppose the computer users are paid employees who are familiar with Windows. Maybe person X gets $30K/year. If, over the lifetime of the computer, that person wastes a week of time learning about Linux, it was a bad decision.

But, you protest, Linux isn't hard to use. Can they call you if they have a problem? They can't. They are frightned that there will be a problem that they can't solve. What do you tell a non-profit whose $1M grant application was rejected because Word was unable to open the document saved in Microsoft fomat by Open Office. If I was running a non-profit, I'd be panic striken by the possibility.

People who are familiar with Linux and Open Office cost more on average than people who are familiar with Windows and Microsoft Office. What makes you think that the cost of hardware and software is even a material factor in the decision?

Re:Think like a non profit

[etymxris]

You make some good points, but you are making some assumptions:

1) The non-profit has money to pay staffers, rather than relying on volunteers.
2) No techie experts are volunteering for the non-profit.

If you have a surfeit of human resources, and very little equipment, then open source makes a lot of sense.

My impression is that these non-profits receiving the donated computers are generally short on cash. If they have 30,000 to pay a staffer, then they likely have a few hundred to spare for a computer.

But they may not have Linux expertise, and that is a problem. On the other hand, no computer runs itself, and Windows problems can stymie all but the most ambitious self-learners.

Re:Think like a non profit

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not the issue he is talking about. He is with a group that is giving away computers. He says some have Linux and some have no OS (obviously they want you to purchase your own copy of windows if that is what you choose to do with the machine. The issue he is faced with is when they line up a computer and the person getting the computer wants the latest greatest believing that they can't do what they need on anything less. Obviously cost of hardware is an issue since this is a group giving computers to non-profit organizations. I doubt that they are granting them to the non-profits like the Salvation Army.

Re:Think like a non profit

[jgoemat]

The $200+ for the OS and another $50 plus a yearly subscription for anti-virus software are not small potatoes for a non-profit, especially if they are getting multiple-computers. If you have 10 linux-based computers there running OpenOffice, they should naturally develop some in-house expertise. If all they're doing is starting up and opening OpenOffice, there's really not that much to it.

If they have Windows and don't constantly check their security bulletins or accidentally open the wrong Outlook attachment, cleaning up their computer network could cost much more than the software ever did...

Re:Think like a non profit

[tigersha]

> My impression is that these non-profits receiving the donated computers are generally short on cash. If they have 30,000 to pay a staffer, then they likely have a few hundred to spare for a computer.

Not necessarily. Budgets for projects from funding agencies are sometimes very inflexible and have weird rules. The problem for a NP is, its not really their money. The dudes who gave it to them are looking over their shoulders and balk if they see purchases which look to them like luxuries or toys. For good reason, many times the money IS blown on toys and this sort of corruption with public money must be stamped out. But sometimes new techono comes in at a good price and then things get inflexible. For instance, 2 yerars ago a DVD burner was an luxury. Not is quickly getting cheap. If you did not budget for one 3 years ago when the grant came through, well, tough luck.

Re:Think like a non profit

[solman]

I addressed the volunteer situation first, because I am more familiar with it.

Volunteers still need to be paid, they get paid with the belief that they have made a difference, and contributed something good. You can't afford to train them, and they are very sensitive to anything that can interfere with the good feeling they receive. If they're forced to learn new software, and they aren't unusually technically savvy, you're liable to significantly reduce the probability of them volunteering again.

Re:Think like a non profit

[shaitand]

"Suppose the computer users are paid employees who are familiar with Windows. Maybe person X gets $30K/year. If, over the lifetime of the computer, that person wastes a week of time learning about Linux, it was a bad decision."

That's false, I fail to see where you come up with that math. A week would be a small price to pay. Windows system are expensive to keep up, they break constantly, and that isn't even considering the licensing cost. On average from experience working with both solutions I'd guestimate in the course of a year the average windows system has over a week of downtime compared with about an hour for the average linux system. And then there is the productivity gain that comes with using well chosen solutions.

It's not like linux is an almost as good or good enough solution, we shouldnt forget it's a superior solution, in the hands of a user who has learned to use it word is rapidly accelerated, in the hands of someone who learns just enough to get by, it will still outpace the same user on windows since there also they learn just enough to get by.

"But, you protest, Linux isn't hard to use. Can they call you if they have a problem? They can't. They are frightned that there will be a problem that they can't solve."

And this is different from windows how? The only difference I see is there is less genuine concern running linux since it typically has so many fewer problems.

"What do you tell a non-profit whose $1M grant application was rejected because Word was unable to open the document saved in Microsoft fomat by Open Office. If I was running a non-profit, I'd be panic striken by the possibility."

You don't tell them anything, you default OO to rtf, anyone who knows enough to make use of features which can't be saved in rtf format can manage to save in word format, and I fail to see where your going to come up with a grant proposal that justifies an advanced format. Not to mention despite what people like you would have us below, there are virtually nil features of word not supported by OO. I've never even heard of a case where an OO saved word doc wasn't readable by word, the other way around yes (actually no for word, but I've seen one or two advanced spreadsheets that wouldn't open in OO) but each and every detail of OO is used tested to work the other way around, in fact it's by examining the freaking word documents produced by word that they've come up with all of them!

"People who are familiar with Linux and Open Office cost more on average than people who are familiar with Windows and Microsoft Office. What makes you think that the cost of hardware and software is even a material factor in the decision?"

You need less such people to begin with, and likely won't need anyone in house at all in most cases. Those who you do hire when you need a tech to come in and fix something will simply be chosen for their knowledge of what you have and they won't have to be called often. Of course such infrequent visits could add an extra 30mins because nobody remembers your setup ;)

Re:Think like a non profit

[solman]

"On average from experience working with both solutions I'd guestimate in the course of a year the average windows system has over a week of downtime compared with about an hour for the average linux system."

This is an absurd and unsupportable accusation. Very few of the millions upon millions of people who used Windows for business last year lost a week of productivity due to their operating system. The director of the non-profit most likely has not had such an experience. By contrast, there are dozens of articles all over the web about people who spent a week just installing Linux. Telling a non-profit director, who has been using Windows successfully, that the average Windows system has a week of down time every year will do nothing but ruin your credibility.

"And then there is the productivity gain that comes with using well chosen solutions."

Real life businesses and non-profits are spectacularly sub-optimal. When they make decisions that deviate from the norm, they are generally flawed. If their success on Linux is dependent on choosing well, they will most likely fail. If they just copy everybody else and use Windows, they will most likely succeed.

"It's not like linux is an almost as good or good enough solution, we shouldnt forget it's a superior solution, in the hands of a user who has learned to use it word is rapidly accelerated, in the hands of someone who learns just enough to get by, it will still outpace the same user on windows since there also they learn just enough to get by."

But they don't know how to use Linux. Otherwise, they wouldn't think Windows was a requirement. Somebody who has been using Windows and Microsoft Office will find Linux and Open Office to be a clearly inferior solution. You are denying reality. In reality, if you pick 10 random business employees, they will consistently choose Windows over Linux, primarilly because they've seen it before and because it was designed for idiots. I doubt very much that a speach about how superior Linux is will change their mind.

"And this is different from windows how?"

They are comfortable with Windows, and that is all the difference in the world.

Re:Think like a non profit

[shaitand]

From your responses it's apparent we are debating, but not the same issue. I'm debate the fact of the superior solution, you are debating the non-profits perceptions which has nothing to do with reality.

The only point I'll debate is the one point in which we are both discussing fact.

"This is an absurd and unsupportable accusation. Very few of the millions upon millions of people who used Windows for business last year lost a week of productivity due to their operating system. The director of the non-profit most likely has not had such an experience. By contrast, there are dozens of articles all over the web about people who spent a week just installing Linux. Telling a non-profit director, who has been using Windows successfully, that the average Windows system has a week of down time every year will do nothing but ruin your credibility."

I work for an independant tech shop, for every business with a dedicated admin there are dozens and dozens who hire techs from shops like ours. Every day I handle calls for the hundreds of businesses that constitute our regular customer base, each with anywhere from 1 to 500 pc's. With 4 onsite technicians and 1 tech in the shop we administer all of them.

Furthermore we basically have a monopoly in central illinois, if you have anything other than the most basic windows setups we are the only option out there. As such I'm in a unique position to experience a vast array of solutions and work with all of them, not subject to any one bosses idea of what should be setup and not.

This includes linux solutions, MacOS, proprietary unix, and certainly windows. The first three options almost never require attention after setup and as such we use them anywhere we can. As a result about 50% of our customer base now uses these solutions, the other 50% has existing setups that require windows, insists on having what the jones do or some such nonsense. 50% of our customer base uses other solutions but 95% of my time is spent fixing windows problems...

Because of the large number of windows problems we are interviewing to hire more techs as if 4 shouldn't be enough to administer a few thousand pc's in a varying array of configurations. Our linux systems are the easiest to administer, they don't break, so we just have to keep them patched and that is accomplished simply by dropping the rpm in an apt repository located at our office. For the past 5yrs we have grown rapidly but have kept the tide managable by avoiding windows like the plague, so don't even think to try to tell me what none of the inhouse admin's on slashdot are in any position to know... windows DOES have more downtime on average than I'd dare to say MOST other solutions.

Re:Think like a non profit

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an absurd and unsupportable accusation.

No, it's neither.

Very few of the millions upon millions of people who used Windows for business last year lost a week of productivity due to their operating system.

How many windows viruses/worms have been active in the past 2 months alone? How much time was lost before these machines could be patched by their respective IT departments?

A week slips by faster than you think.

A million times...

[alexjohns]

I've been asked this question a million times, albeit in a slightly different form - "What kind of computer should I get?" To give a good answer you need to understand what they're going to be using it for. If all they want is to do some simple web browsing and word processing, you can show them how easy that is to do on a Pentium-100. If they need to run AutoCAD or something like that, then maybe they DO need a P-IV.

And if you're going to give them old Pentium 100's, you're going to have to find a source for old software if you're talking Windows. Where would you go to buy a copy of Windows 98 and Office 97? And if you're talking Linux, who'll be doing tech support?

I don't envy you. Everyone wants the new BMW, not the '94 Honda Civic. But, more importantly, if they're going to be hauling lumber, neither of those cars is optimal. Both you and your customer have to understand their requirements.

Boy, that just all seems so obvious. Have to get up the energy to hit 'Submit'...

Re:A million times...

[shaitand]

"do some simple web browsing and word processing, you can show them how easy that is to do on a Pentium-100"

Unless they have broadband or faster, in which case you might as well give them a high end PII or a PIII that will have a newer harddrive and gettable ram. Since that P-100 would need a new ide controller and hard drive and EDO ram (aka solid gold) just to render the pages as fast as a new computer. You could simply buy a better used machine for that $270 worth of additional hardware.

"Where would you go to buy a copy of Windows 98 and Office 97?"

win98 at least can still be bought from places like ingram micro. Office 97 is getting tough to find.

"And if you're talking Linux, who'll be doing tech support?"

It's not much harder to find support for linux than for windows and it generally needs drastically less support.

Re:A million times...

[vadim_t]

Nonsense. A P100 is perfectly capable of rendering pages with a very decent speed. It will take quite a while on really big pages though, but most people don't load the whole mySQL documentation as a single html file.

Add enough RAM (say, 256MB) and it should work well enough for any website. The performance problem will come from excessive use of Java, JavaScript and Flash, not HTML rendering.

Use an example if you can

[BrynM]

My idea? Bring in a 300-600MHZ laptop with 128MB RAM, running Linux. Show them an office suite, some 3D and some screensavers. If you can, show them the same types of things under Windows. Let them see that it's not a big deal.

Two things

[TeXMaster]

There are two things you should keep in mind. Ok, three actually

1. I'd say they would/should go for OpenOffice.org; now, OpenOffice.org needs X and is not very "lean and mean". This means they do need some RAM and CPU power. As far as the RAM goes, 128 would probably suffice, but if you can go for 256 please do; more than that is most probably not needed. For the CPU, also consider the next point.
2. The choice is somewhat limited by what you can find around. I doubt you can get anything less than a PIV these days, at least if you go for new hardware. And of course, you can probably go for Athlon-based systems, which is cheaper and better. If you go for older (existing, recylced, donated) hardware keep in mind the next point.
3. Hardware obsoletes rapidly. Very rapidly. Among other things, this means that if something breaks, for any reason, the older the stuff the more difficult it is to find a spare part --which might lead to extra expenses because you need to basically buy a new computer for the simple fact that you cannot find a piece to replace the single thing that broke.

This all having being said, your best bet to tell them what they need and why is to show them.

How is this different from...

[bscott]

Why is explaining Linux to people working for a nonprofit distinct from, or harder than, explaining it to anyone else? I've worked for nonprofits, for-profits and the federal government - I never noticed a generalized difference in average computer literacy OR overall intelligence amongst them.

I think most people can grasp:
- Commercial software costs a lot of money, partly because of the advertising they do. It's inefficient and requires some heavy-duty hardware to run.
- free software does not cost money, in part because you have not heard of it... But it does about the same thing anyway, and runs well on older PCs.

I realize you're trying to overcome FUD here and not just explain a simple A vs B situation, but I don't get why the nonprofit status of the workplace makes it any more difficult. To the contrary, they're often more amenable to cost-based arguments. And if the basic facts, backed up by a quick side-by-side demo, doesn't sway them - well, you've done what you can.

What a Np needs

[tigersha]

Unlike most of the other posters here, I work for a non-profit as sysadmin and have for several years.

Here are some comments.

First, the cost of scrounging for parts and fixing up and mucking about and getting your time wasted with older machines is quite often more than the cost of just bloody buying a new one. A new Pentium wazoo with all the bells and whistles costs maybe, what, 500 Dollars? If you go for a slightly older machine such as a 1Ghz Duron or Celeron you can get a powerhouse for half that which is pretty OK, but which does not have wear and tear on the harddisks, which has enough space and which will not self-destruct from heat fatigue next week. And is under warranty, which comes in handy when it does blow up.

Yes, Staroffice or whatever runs OK on a 500Mhz Pentium III. But that same second-hand Pentium III is going to have an old harddisk which is going to croak sometimes. Older machines are finicky about the RAM they take. Try to make it work with a USB scanner is going to cause more fuss than its worth.

Most non-profits have a LOT of interaction with funding agencies and such things. These people ALL use Word. In such a case your staff will balk (legitimately) if your office program is "pretty OK" with interoperating with Word. After OpenOffice f^Hmucked up a document for for the third time (even only slightly) when it got passed around to someone in some agency with Word it really gets pretty damn annoying for both you and the guy who decides if you get the money or not.

Non-profits do publications and presentations and such. Someone mentioned Gimp. Gimp is a toy. If you want to real publications you need a vector drawing program and page layout program anyways. Despite Scribus, the only choices here are Quark (mucho expensive) and Indesign (pretty expensive, but cheper than Quark, but not used outside very much. See interaction with others above). Photoshop blows Gimp out of the water over and again and Photoshop Elements is a damn fine program and not expensive at all.

Another problem is that, unlike a corporation, a non-profit's gifts tend to be a rather, em, interesting mix of several different kinds of machines with different parts and makes which makes maintenance a problem.

Linux does have a good role to play for servers though. All our servers run it and its really better than Windoze at working on older computers.

A super fast machine at a non-profit does have a use for machines that gets shared by several users, such as a fileserver.

So, basically, giving older machines to non-profits is a nice gesture but the extra maintenance and effort to keep a bunch of old somewhat cranky machines with hard-to get parts that do not always play nice with modern equipment is something to keep in mind. The cost of keeping admin staff to maintain is probably not worth it.

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Re:What a Np needs

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally, someone who's not a zealot speaks some truth! Well said, sir.

Old secondhand hardware is generally more pain than it's worth, and just because *you* happen to like and use Linux and OpenOffice, that doesn't for one second mean it's right for a particular client. Like the parent poster so rightly said, most non-profit organisations (and most organisations full-stop) are locked into the MS-Office document formats (similar situation for prepress, with even the mighty InDesign struggling to get a foothold against Quark), and unless the OpenOffice filters offer 100% compatibility (which'll probably never happen) then the clients *will* bitch at *you* when something breaks.

Note that I've also done hardware and admin work for non-profit organisations and, surprisingly enough, they all use Windows & Office, just like 90%+ of general businesses - it's not a perfect world, but that's the reality of it. Offer them a solution that's cheaper, more efficient, but only works with 80% of documents and they'll kick you to touch; just because they're non-profit that doesn't mean that their time doesn't equal money.

Nonprofits get a deal from Microsoft

[sid crimson]

A another poster mentioned, there is not much need to get the hottest equipment. Nonprofits should do what they can to spend as little as possible. That said...

Many nonprofits (i.e. a 501(c)(3)) get a deal from Microsoft. Office costs ~$75/ea. Windows server is $150. CALs for server is $10. You get the idea.

Some stores such as Tigerdirect have recent-model PCs with XP Pro preinstalled for $600 with a three year warranty. Add an LCD and you have a $1000.00 low-energy computer that's easy on the eyes and includes service for 3 years.

I work in a nonprofit. I use Linux where it makes sense: relay to Exchange, web serving, etc. As a nonprofit the cost-barrier for MS just isn't there. And since the boss doesn't see the $100 savings-per-computer as a reason to leave when most (all?) of the savings will be spent on training.

-sid

Re:Nonprofits get a deal from Microsoft

[shaitand]

except for a few things. Windows requires significantly more work to keep running. It's a security risk. You have to deal with viruses. And you only have to train an employee once. Whereas you have to replace computers and spend the $100 per machine again over and over and over again.

Re:Nonprofits get a deal from Microsoft

[sid crimson]

$100 per machine again over and over and over again.

True. Which means that I will be spending $500 extra during budget year 2004 to keep up with the new staff. In an organization with 70 employees that's not much... and when the boss doesn't consider $500 a barrier then there's little to push us to go all OSS.

Windows requires significantly more work to keep running.

Cold, hard facts, please. I don't visit my workstations unless the user has a question or the hardware fails. Hardware failure is not a Windows thing, it's a computer thing -- therefore I have spare workstations on hand to keep people running in case of problem. My time is best spent with the users, not dealing with computers. That's how it should be; that's how it is at my organization.

And you only have to train an employee once.

I prefer to consider training a process in the same way security is a process. We cross-train, and believe me when someone calls in sick or has to leave due to injury/illness there's nothing like a crew of employees that know their stuff and pick up the slack. The missing employee is missed, for sure, but we don't suffer for it.

It's a security risk. You have to deal with viruses.

Did I mention I used linux in front of the network to filter mail, etc? Besides, it is just as easy to admin a Linux network poorly as it is to admin a Windows network poorly.

I'm no MS zealot. I merely use the tools that make sense for the job. :-)

-sid

Re:Nonprofits get a deal from Microsoft

[shaitand]

"True. Which means that I will be spending $500 extra during budget year 2004 to keep up with the new staff. In an organization with 70 employees that's not much... and when the boss doesn't consider $500 a barrier then there's little to push us to go all OSS."

That's one way to look at it, another is that's $7500 that should be finding better use in the budget.

"Did I mention I used linux in front of the network to filter mail, etc? Besides, it is just as easy to admin a Linux network poorly as it is to admin a Windows network poorly."

If you were running linux across the board you wouldn't need to filter, and although you cleverly place your linux as the head of the security you leave your vulnerable systems on the inside were the greatest threat lies... the employees themselves. Filtering mail is great and all, but not needing to filter it is even better.

"I'm no MS zealot. I merely use the tools that make sense for the job."

That's as it should be, Linux is not always the right option, nor proprietary Unix, nor MacOS. It's just that I fail to think of many situations in which the tool that makes sense for the job is windows ;) It seems your implying that you keep windows out of your server room knowing it's not stable or secure and that's well and good. But you seem to feel for some reason you appear to believe obvious that it's the right choice for the job on the desktop.

Let's look at the obvious benefits of the platforms.

Mac, obviously the easiest to use, requires much less training but completely abstracts the user from the computer, as a result after working with mac for years the typical mac user still knows nothing about computers and what to do if something goes wrong.

Windows, has a large number of applications due to it's popularity, and has support from all hardware vendors due to it's popularity. The interface is counterintuitive jumping from abstract like a mac to exposing you to the way the computer works in a seemingly random fashion with no rhyme or reason to it. It breaks constantly in numerous ways, sometimes even calling broken behavior "features". As a result after a few years working with it pretty much everyone takes problems in stride and knows how to work around a number of flukes. After working with windows nobody calls the tech simply because a program crashes anymore, they just try whatever they were doing again and/or reboot and carry on.

Linux, the most stable and secure of the choices and by far the most flexible for the power user. Has a large number of applications available, far more than the mac, far less than windows. It has a gui which is far more intuitive and consistant than windows and less than the mac. It does not attempt to abstract concepts from the user, instead it seeks to simplify working with the true nature of the beast. The result is that after a few years the user knows a great deal about the system and as such understands what to do if there is a problem. If something goes wrong the user knows to contact the admin immediately since on this platform something going wrong typically means hardware failure.

All three have ups and downs, none is clear winner, but whichever clear winner you come up with it's surely not windows. It's only up is the large number of programs and vendor support for hardware and that is a superficial benefit that will automagically transfer to whichever desktop system becomes most popular.

Re:Nonprofits get a deal from Microsoft

[sid crimson]

but whichever clear winner you come up with it's surely not windows

I agree, Windows is not a clear winner for most situations. It's not perfect. I don't apologize or defend it. But my network doesn't exibit the plethora of problems I read about here on /. or other places.

Did I mention Wintel makes my boss feel warm and fuzzy? It's hard to put a price on that. ;-)

I didn't mention that our major application -- the one that the entire organization runs on -- requires SQL Server. There truely are no replacements for this package on other platforms -- not with the level of support or integration they offer.

I suppose I could roll my own package... but developement, support, maintenance, etc would eat up any savings ($7,500 as you noted) by going with Linux. I have even picked out OSS apps that fill many of the needs, but integrating them is no easy task. The question of Build-or-Buy is already answered here.

Even if I did chose Linux, or Mac, or I would still have to find a way to run the software my users rely on at the workstation. One choice here would be Terminal Service. RDP? MS RDC for Mac? A great option. But none of these remove our need for Windows at the server.

Exchange. Haven't seen anything to replace that. And my users are good at Exchange. They use the Journal. They use the Calendars. A few of them (offsite) even have meetings with Netmeeting. It works with Project, another package my users are good at. Granted, I could replace the systems I have with Mac systems... it's a viable option. It's an option I've considered over and over. The problem? It's nice to have a single set of problems... having Macs and Wintel mean two sets of problems to deal with. Replacing all the systems with Mac is not a cost-saving option.

The users -- being the biggest security risk (as you correctly state) are the biggest problem no matter which OS we choose. Since security is a process, not a button, choosing Linux does not make it more secure. Granted, running Linux properly is more secure than running Windows properly -- no question in my mind.

I have Windows and Linux in my server room. I have Windows on my desktops. I do have a couple Macs on the desktops too... these seem to be required tools of the artistic types. :-)

I personally have a couple of test-desktops with Linux only, and as time permits I attempt to to accomplish every daily task on them. I have Codeweavers for Project. I have Ximian's connector for Evolution. I have RDP for the SQL-based application. I have OpenOffice.

After purchasing Codeweavers and Ximian there is little money savings over the Wintel solution. Therefore I have to sell the Linux/Mac variant to my boss based on theory and reports from other organizations. That ain't easy... and I have it better than most because my boss it technically savvy and approves of Linux (he's an ex-programmer).

Filtering mail is great and all, but not needing to filter it is even better.

I wouldn't remove the filter simply because I had Linux. The requirement would disappear, surely, but the need wouldn't. :-)

-sid

Non-profits, old HW, etc.

[baka_boy]

Get one high-quality, reasonably-fast server box. Maybe two, if you've got the cash. Install a good UPS, RAID array, and backup drive (tape, CD-R, whatever). That box will run server daemons for POP/IMAP, NFS/SMB (for home directories), and whatever web-based business apps (timecard system, issue tracker, whatever) they need.

Then, accept whatever client systems you can get that will boot from CD with at least SVGA graphics support, and run everything as a "thick" client. Rip out the hard drives, or use them for little more than swap, browser cache, and tempfiles. When a client machine dies, don't troubleshoot it, just replace it with another one from the pile in the closet. Depending on the size of the office and resource requirements of the apps they use,

Yes, the whole system takes some setup. Once it gets running, though, the whole system should require about as much maintenance as your average web server. And the client systems are completely disposable.

Re:Non-profits, old HW, etc.

[krilli]

Smart.

But they DO need PIV's or athlons...

[shaitand]

No they don't need the horsepower (or aren't likely to at any rate), but they DO need the newer hardware.

I'm forced everyday to explain to companies that bought used computers because they "don't need anything that fast" why they have to upgrade sooner than someone who bought new. You don't have to buy high end, but you do have to buy new. Why? Because I don't have a ready supply of EDO ram these days, no I don't stock your AT power supplies sorry, nope no ISA slots here buddy and no ISA cards either. PCI video cards, wtf are you talking about, I had to LOOK to find somewhere I can still order them. PII fans... getting tough to find.

You also have a massive drop in value of older hardware in comparison with new. An athlon over 1ghz is still a fairly valuable machine and worth putting money into, a PIII or PII is not worth putting over a hundred dollars in today, and even then only the hardware could be used in a new machine if a more significant investment were required tommorow.

We made this mistake with mail servers for small businesses. We had PII's out the wazzoo, and many customer's had extra's from upgrades. So we'd sell them a nice linux mail/web/ftp/webmail/spamfilter/dns/dnscaching solution. They perform excellently, none have ever needed so much as a reboot (with one exception, it had bad ram).

After about 18months or so word was starting to get around, more and more customers were asking for these solutions.... the problem we are very much out of PII's!!!

Right now we have maybe 20-25 of these servers out there, they just sit and work and remote administration and updates from our office is a breeze, I perform monthly maintaince on all of them in less than an hour. I could easily triple the number and it would still take less than an hour. It also occurs to us, that 5yrs down the line, where will we be in terms of parts? Where will we find processor to replace the dead ones? Will we still be able to get PC100/133 ram?

Re:But they DO need PIV's or athlons...

[Stardate]

No, but by then you could ghost the harddrives to the old P4s you're going to have lying around. :) I would love to experiment with the AlphaServer we have sitting in the storage room (preacher), or fix the Sun Enterprise E250 whose processor fan broke (curtis). But why do that when we could just buy a $1000 Sun Fire V100?

Instead I replaced my SPARCstation 20 (hamlin) with a PII-400 Dell server running Solaris 9 x86 (gobi). I'd love to run Linux but I still need more time to absorb the ins and outs of it.

Damn I have been name dropping lots of things up there, these bong hits really get you fucked up. :-)

Re:But they DO need PIV's or athlons...

[IM6100]

I can understand your point of view, since it sounds almost as if you make most of your money on markups of new parts.

However, I can get buy Pentium Pro and Pentium II systems by the skid at auction and pay $1-5 per box. I think your pessimism is valid in cases where the customer comes running to your cash register waving a credit card, and less so when it's a non profit that has volunteer labor and might even have a few computer geeks hanging around.

MOD THIS GUY UP!

[shaitand]

Except on point one he is right there. Point one is not technicaly correct (except in terms of point 2 and 3), you could easily run a PIV with 256mb ram as a terminal server and serve to 20 clients.

Re:MOD THIS GUY UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

Also 2 is not correct--you can easily get a Celeron, substantially cheaper than PIV.

LTSP ?

[acesuares]

Maybe this info can help you: http://k12ltsp.org/phpwiki/index.php/Hardware Ace (www.suares.com)

How-To:

[Anonymous Coward]

Hardware
If possible a demo with the key decision makers would be highly effective.

This stuff tends to last quite a while, I wouldn't sweat this too much. Stay away from SIMMs, slot based processors, & the rest
will take care of itself. For those worried about failure of older drives consider that most of the new IDE drives sold these days only have a year warranty anyway!

Software
Demo as above.

If you're planning on using Linux/OO/Evolution et al., you're going to have to provide some level of training.

Many users I've worked with can't remember if their files are saved locally or on a server and/or where thier "folders" are in the FS - so in some sense there is no need to heed the M$ software familarity FUD.

And yes there are some diffences between OO & O2k but if you've leaned one spreadsheet program you can learn another - contrary to popular belief this is NOT rocket science...

My two cents.

Old PC's cant take new linux

[samjam]

I replaced a friends P100 32MB win95 with a P400 64MB Redhat 9

The redhat 9 desktop was deathly slow and always swapping. It was about 10 times slower than the old machine.

I add another 128MB of RAM and now its just 2-3 times slower than win95.

I'm going to install a cheap copy of win98 on that box and get rid of linux.

2 years ago I set my PC up to dual boot linux ready to make the switch.
I have My Documents on a FAT32 disk that is also mounted from linux so I can use openoffice on them from either linux or windows. I use Mozilla (where possible) 90% of the time.

I still haven't been able to make the switch and get rid of windows.

Strangely on my 700MHz linux is faster than WIN2K + virus-scanner.

Sam

Re:Old PC's cant take new linux

[tigersha]

Ok, my comment was mostly directed against old hardware, but we use Linux extensively for our servers. For something that only a techie is suposed to touch this is probably better (no idiot PHB fiddling around with Windows server because he is scared is a good thing :).

One thing to keep in mind with Redhat is that it installs a lot of servers in the background such as sendmail and such which is not win windows which tends to be a killer. My Linux machie is vastly faster than Windoze XP, but its also a fastish machine.

Re:Old PC's cant take new linux

[drsmithy]

I'm going to install a cheap copy of win98 on that box and get rid of linux.

If you don't have any requirement to use Win98 (eg: freaky old DOS software) then I'd strongly advise using NT4. It'll be pretty much as fast and a thousand times more stable. Heck, even Win2k or XP (sans the new eyecandy) is tolerable on a machine of that spec - my mother's computer is fast enough to use for all the things she does.

Linux bloat and which windows bloat?

[samjam]

Yeah, I think the lesson is linux bloat is faster than winxp or win2k bloat, but win95 bloat is faster than linux bloat.

Sam

Only in the USA

[Micah]

Outside the country, MS gives no discounts. And it's there where discounts are likely needed the most.

Re:Only in the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that's what Asia needs. Hint, they don't pay for software over there. Well not Microsoft at any rate.

Give them a solution, not specs

[toast0]

Find out what they want to do with the computer, not the specs they (think they) want.

Then provide a computer that will do everything they want to do; or tell them you don't have the raw material to do it.

If they still insist they need a P4000, with 50 Gig of ram, explain to them how you figured the p2 over there w/ 128 meg of ram will do everything they need, and ask them to explain why they need a p4000.

Re:A bit overconfident, I'd say

[symbolic]

I can't tell you how many times you run into the very same kinds of issues EVEN WITH COMMERCIAL SOFTWARE. Want help for Microsoft Windows? Oh sure, you can call someone, but be sure you whip out that credit card first. Then there's the issue of whether or not your call will lead to the ever-popular recommendation to get rid of the problem by reinstalling Windows.

Ever been caught in the middle of two vendors, both pointing their fingers at each other, claiming that it's the "other guy" responsible for the problem? Where does that leave YOU?

Please...anyone who actually believes that commercial software is the end to all of their problems, and that with commercial software there will always be someone accountable for the problems you encounter, dream on.