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Linus Holds Forth On the Future of Linux

Posted by timothy on from the and-who-better dept.

colinmc151 writes "As part of Geekcruises' Linux Lunacy cruise to Alaska, Linus Torvalds was interviewed and answered questions about where he sees the future of Linux with a particular eye towards developers. Great stuff."

28 of 249 comments (clear)

  1. Linus about Mac OS X? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How come nobody ever asks Linus what he thinks about Mac OS X ?

    1. Re:Linus about Mac OS X? by saunabad · · Score: 5, Funny

      In his book "Just for fun" he wrote about his opinion on the microkernel architecture and mach. I don't have the book at the moment so I can't give you the actual quote, but I think a word-to-word direct translation from Finnish to English would be pretty close to "it is from ass" :)

    2. Re:Linus about Mac OS X? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      from here:

      On Apple and OS X
      I never much liked Macs. All the interesting stuff is hidden away. They made the base of the house open source, but all the rest of the stuff, the wiring, is their own stuff. I don't want that to happen with Linux.

      [Mac OS X] doesn't give me the warm-and-fuzzies. I actually dislike Mach a lot. I think they made a lot of bad design choices.

    3. Re:Linus about Mac OS X? by daviddennis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Obviously, someone does. Look around you - the two highest ranking topics as of the time I'm writing are on this question. People are using moderator points to push them up, a strong indicator of interest.

      I've personally switched from SGI Irix to Linux to MacOS X on the desktop, for both home and work. There have been some articles, in Infoworld and elsewhere, about normally geeky guys who have seen the virtues of Apple's creations. And CmdrTaco is the proud owner of a Mac laptop, which he apparently liked so much that he created an Apple section here on Slashdot.

      Linux on the desktop seems to have done its best to imitate Windows on the desktop. If you want a user interface better than a pale imitation of Microsoft, then MacOS X is your OS.

      For cost reasons, I don't think this is much of a threat to Linux or Microsoft. But I think it's a very interesting phenomenon that deserves more coverage.

      D

    4. Re:Linus about Mac OS X? by Trurl's+Machine · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This question is sort-of-answered in "his" book "Just For Fun" (actually written together by Linus Torvalds and David Diamond). Linus seems to have almost religious anti-MacOS X stance. He is against anything that is proprietary - and MacOS X still remains proprietary on its most important layer. He is against the very idea of microkernel, so he is against Mach as such. It's funny, because this book is actually written on a Mac notebook, but as David Diamond notes, when Linus was reading his own words for approval, he payed more attention to the whole OS and the machine (and expressing his dislike for both) than to his own words. Probably that's how the silly mistake about "Apache, the most popular commercial Linux version" could have slipped.

    5. Re:Linus about Mac OS X? by axxackall · · Score: 5, Informative
      From the book review:
      Linus discusses why he continues to use a standard kernel as opposed to a microkernel. This discussion basically says that microkernels are not as efficient or easy to use as a standard kernel. The driving force behind Linus not using a microkernel approach is because he believes the parts are bigger than the whole, essentially saying it is more difficult to understand/develop a kernel with a modular approach as opposed to the standard kernel. Microkernels spend lots of time communicating from one piece of the kernel to another where a standard kernel has shared pieces so the communication doesn't have to take place. This specific piece is where the developers of microkernel implementations differ from Linus.
      --

      Less is more !
    6. Re:Linus about Mac OS X? by ergo98 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He is against the very idea of microkernel

      This is like saying that a husband is against the very idea of vacuuming, rather than simply doesn't want to vacuum. From what I have read of Torvald's opinion, the difficulty was that a microkernel isn't as easy to write, and can be less efficient (but on the flip side can be dramatically more secure and stable - see QNX). That's great that he feels that as a developer, but as a user, or as someone choosing products for embedded systems, etc, I think I'd take a microkernel.

    7. Re:Linus about Mac OS X? by Trurl's+Machine · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is like saying that a husband is against the very idea of vacuuming, rather than simply doesn't want to vacuum.

      But this particular husband says - for example - that "one of the arguments against vacuuming, pardon, mcrokernels has always been performance" (page 130 of the hardcover edition). There are also other anti-microkernel rants scattered all over the book, but I hope this example is enough. It's not that Linus says "I don't want to do this", he also says that it's the wrong idea.

    8. Re:Linus about Mac OS X? by JamesKPolk · · Score: 5, Informative

      Torvalds against anything proprietary? Where have you been since Torvalds has begun using Bitkeeper (a proprietary RCS) for all his kernel development?

    9. Re:Linus about Mac OS X? by FrozedSolid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think this is the wrong kind of comparison to be making. I for one never saw linux as a complete windows replacement. The desktop side of things is sort of a slowly evolving blob, as far as I've ever seen. Luckily "how it looks," isn't the reason why most people claim to use linux.

      Apple is a corporation. MacOS is (for the most part) closed source. That means that when you purchase software from them, you are stuck getting updates and fixes from them. I wouldn't say apple is as bad as microsoft, not yet anyway, but lots of stuff points out that Apple is working towards locking in their users. For example, the fiasco about security updates to the older versions of OSX a few days ago.

      I always hear people chastising Microsoft about their evil DRM-enhanced future. I don't see why people don't notice Apple doing it RIGHT NOW. Look at iTunes. You can burn your music, or you can put it on your iPod. I have an Archos mp3 player. I can't put music I buy from iTunes on it even though I've purchased the music. I'm by no means putting down Apple's use of DRM, after all, they have to make money somehow, but it's important to realize that they are just another corporation, and in parallel, they are just out to make money.

      With open source you don't have to rely on a central source for fixes, you can fix it yourself, you can modify the appliations to suit your needs and whatnot. MacOS X may look nice, but it's no develper's heaven. That's what linux is for.

      --
      When all freedom is outlawed only the outlaws have freedom
  2. One thing for certain by El · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The open source developers will be amongst the last to see their (volunteer) jobs exported to India and China!

    --

    "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

  3. Desktop by seanadams.com · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A very interesting read. However, I was surprised to find no comments at all concerning OSX, wrt the future of linux on the desktop. I mean, if anything in the last two years has obviated the need for linux on the desktop, this is it.

    It sounds like getting onto the desktop is important to him. He talks about the problems affecting kernel space - poor support from latop hardware mfrs being a big one... but really the kernel is NOT what's holding up the success of linux on the desktop. We need easier setup and a useable interface.

    1. Re:Desktop by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think OS X has obviated the need for Linux on the desktop at all -- and I'm an OS X user.

      I love Macs. I think they're great machines. Whenever anyone asks me for computer-buying advice, my first response is always "get a Mac." I would love it if Apple's market share blew up. My Mac does everything I want a computer to do. My last machine was a Mac, my current machine (obviously) is a Mac, and unless something drastic changes, my next machine will be a Mac too.

      But.

      What I would never want to see would be Apple becoming Microsoft. I don't want Steve Jobs to own the desktop any more than I want Bill Gates to. And honestly, assuming that the "Unix desktop" ("Unix" here being broadly defined, of course) ever becomes more than a niche market -- which I hope and expect it will -- I wouldn't even want to see Apple have 90+% market share there. Obviously I want them to do well. I don't want them, or anyone else, to dominate.

      What I want is competition. I'd love to see Apple and Red Hat and SuSE and Mandrake and yes, even Microsoft, all slugging it out on something resembling a level playing field. I'd like to see the market work the way it's supposed to: the companies that do truly innovative things get rewarded, and their competitors respond with innovations of their own, and we -- the great unwashed desktop-using masses -- are the ones who win.

      Obviously we're a long way from that. Right now, OS X and Linux play complementary roles. Linux ensures the growth of Unix as a whole, and that there will be lots of great Unix software out there available for free or for very low cost -- and that software almost always ends up on OS X as well. (Fink is my friend.) OS X provides an example of what a Unix desktop can be, and introduces users who would be put off by the inherent geekery of Linux culture to the wonders of what a Unix system can do.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  4. another interesting read... by mr_tommy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    An interesting read, but as ever i never seem to get an understanding of how Linux is going to convert the other 99% to microsoft.

    Torvalds might be saviour to the linux community, but thats where it stops. Frankly, The OS either needs some drastic marketting plans or a couple of well placed PR people if it ever wants to make some headway. Bill Gates & Microsoft didn't get rich of the quality of their programming.

    1. Re:another interesting read... by bstadil · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If you haven't read Clayton Christensen's theory about Disruptive technologies you owe it to yoursleves to do so.

      In the case of Linux the improvement in the OS is at a much steeper trajectory than Windows.

      It is starting in smaller pockets (I am talking desktop) where the requirement for compatability is somewhat lower. Pockets where only a smaller subset of functionality is needed etc. But the thing is that once in, it will not be replaced by Windows. The Niche is gone for good.

      Second Linux is Circling Windows from all sides. From big iron servers to cell phones. This means that the interoperability issue will become less and less. One day you will wake up and realize that it is actually smarter to ditch Windows than try to keep it in sync with it's surroundings.

      --
      Help fight continental drift.
    2. Re:another interesting read... by cpeterso · · Score: 3, Interesting


      Clayton Christensen's "The Innovator's Dilemma" is a great book. It is very similar to Richard Gabriel's "Worse Is Better". This theory also explains why inferior products like DOS, Windows, C++, and Java succeeded. They sucked in many ways, but they were better in some small, important way.

      --
      cpeterso
  5. Forth? by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 3, Funny

    I thought no one used Forth anymore. Now Linus tells us it is the future of Linux?

    Seriously though, is it just me, or is the title phrased in a peculiar manner?

    --
    Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
  6. Geekcruises by HBI · · Score: 5, Funny

    Someone should tell desperate, single women about this.

    There might be an explosion as the matter of women and anti-matter of geeks annihilate each other. What a way to go out with a bang, though!

    Besides, Linus could use some groupies. It'll make Gates jealous at the very least.

    --
    HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
  7. Geekcruises? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Is that where a huge luxury liner sails through beautiful waters and near exotic locations and not a single person is on deck because they'd a) be away from their computer and b) have to stand in the sun?

  8. New directions for kernal development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Hi all,

    Recently, I've been thinking a lot about where Linux development should
    head now that 2.6 is out. Specifically, I've been thinking about how we
    ought to make some cultural changes as well as technical changes. Now I'm
    not *entirely* sure what directions we should head in as we move towards
    3.0, but I'd like to point out a few areas that need to be addressed as well
    as propose some possible solutions. Nothing is set in stone yet, but these
    are definitely issues we need to work on.

    First off, I don't like a lot of the elitism that does on among Linux
    hackers. Just because you can tell what the following script does without
    executing it, doesn't mean that you're some kind of god.

    #! /usr/bin/perl
    @k = unpack "a"x5,'x_,d@';@o = unpack "a"x19,'Q8>tUxLm\@`Y%N@cIq]';
    while ($i19){print chr((ord($o[$i])-ord($k[$i++%5])+91)%91+32);}

    Learning to hack Un*x is an impressive accomplishment, but it's closer kin
    to solving a Rubik's cube than scaling Everest. If you think using Un*x
    makes you some kind of super genius who should be feared by mere mortals and
    end users, either get over it or start using *BSD. *BSD users (and
    developers) are all complete jackasses, so you'll fit right in.

    Secondly, I'd like to address the issue of cleanliness. Quite frankly, the
    standards of personal hygiene practiced by many members of this community
    are simply unacceptable. As you all know, I am a fairly clean cut,
    well-kempt person (I know, I have a bit of a gut, but compared to Maddog,
    Nick Petreley or ESR, I'm a modern Adonis.), and in the Linux community that
    is something of an anomaly. Virtually all users of Linux (and all other
    forms of Un*x) are unkempt, longhaired, beast-bearded dirty GNU hippies, and
    I am sick and tired of having to deal with them.

    The person I have the greatest problem with is that (in)famous communist
    RMS. Now, RMS may have been responsible for GNU, the GPL, GCC and many
    other contributions to the computing community, but his stance, as well as
    stench, displayed in his essays and actions, nauseates me. I mean, with
    that filth-ridden beard of his, where does he have room to demand that
    people refer to Linux as GNU / Linux? When he is as clean-shaven as I, he
    may claim that right, but until then, he should go back to playing his
    little flute and dropping acid like there's no tomorrow. Honestly, if he
    doesn't shut his mouth and go back to reading Marx, I'm going to shut it for
    him. I am sorry to sound so harsh, but a little hygiene every once in a
    while is a Good Thing(TM). Makes me wish I'd gone with a closed source
    license back in the day.

    Next in line of dirty scuzz-balls I have to deal with, and probably the
    worst thorn in my side, is Alan Cox, the primary coder of my kernel's TCP/IP
    stack (ha, what a joke!) and all around dirty GNU hippy. Alan views
    toothpaste the same way a vampire views garlic. The man's wife (who I spent
    a few years with at the University of Helsinki) often calls me crying in the
    middle of the night to complain of the rank, unbearable stench the man
    exudes after sex. On several occasions at trade shows, exhibitions and beer
    bashes, I have nearly fainted from the torrent of rotten odor that pours
    from every inch of his toxic person. Along with the typical GNU hygiene
    (mis)habits he practices, he also bitches and whines about... well,
    everything. He lies a lot too; evidence for this can be seen in the fact he
    almost always wears cheap black sunglasses when talking to people he knows
    are better than him (such as myself).

    And then we come to ESR. I won't reiterate the sewer-dweller like cleansing
    habits he practices as well, but I would like to focus on his general
    lifestyle. I like to refer to ESR as AGB or "Arrogant Gas Baron." The man'
    s flatulence is legendary. I honestly believe that given a meal of refried

  9. having a bias by argoff · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apparently people think it's allright when you have a bias for superior technology, or for example, a bias that the earth is round rather than flat. But when it comes to a bias in favor of free (as in freedom, not beer) then all of a sudden it becomes so taboo - not even Linus wants to have that bias. I think that is such a shame, hasn't history shown that it's a worthy and rational bias by now?

    Just my opinion.

    1. Re:having a bias by timeOday · · Score: 4, Funny

      We've still got RMS :)

  10. New sig for Windows Advocates! by DaneelGiskard · · Score: 4, Funny

    I would be happy to say anything bad about software patents if I could just ... formulate a sentence that makes sense.
    Linus Torvalds

    There you go. Don't tell anyone you got it from me ;-)

  11. linus the shrink by spacefem · · Score: 5, Funny

    "psychology is so important. It made a huge difference to call it [the newest Linux kernel] 2.60 Test 1. Because we started getting a lot of bug reports from people who would never touch 2.5.79 with a ten-foot pole. Even though it was the same code. Especially on the desktop that's the only way to test it. Because desktops are just so varied that you literally have to get it tested by the user base."

    I suddenly understand why 2.6 has been in the works all this time, it's brilliant. I'd think analysis like this would lend developers into more and more X.X changes instead of X.X.X.XX.X... going that deep into releases just isn't practical, especially when you're needing people to help out.

    I went into science a long time ago thinking it'd be so great because it wouldn't involve people's silly perceptions and personal idiosynchrocies but I've come to find the opposite, and I've come to find that it's not always bad to have technical people be "human" after all. If that makes any sense.

    In other news, I still don't know how to correctly pronounce Linux.

    --

    spacefem.com
  12. Augh! Geeks on a ship. by The+Ape+With+No+Name · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sub Captain: "Captain to ops."
    Ops: "Ops here."
    Captain: "I need a solution. Target bearing 323. Speed 16 knots. Distance: 5600 meters"
    Ops: "Aye Aye. Solution ready."
    Captain: "Tropedo room."
    TR: "Aye."
    Captain: "Ready and load tubes 1,3,5."
    TR: "Aye. Tubes loaded and ready."
    Captain: "Fire 1,3,5. Call run times!"
    Fire Control: "Fish away."
    Sonar: "Explosions, sir!"
    Captain: "Excellent."
    Sonar: "Sir, something disturbing."
    Captain: "What?"
    Sonar: "Strange screams of anguish."
    Captain: "Huh? Don't let your emotions rule you son."
    Sonar: "No sir. Just things like: 'I can't swim.' 'Where's my inhaler?' 'What? No backups?' 'Save the Anime DVDs!' 'There ain't no women and children here, save Linus first!' 'Leave RMS behind. He's old and bitter. Tis a better fate.' 'You have been, and always will be, my friend.'
    Captain: 'Surface!'
    Number One: 'Will we take on survivors?'
    Captain: 'Prepare the .50 cal on deck....'

    --
    Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
  13. Linux needs automatic configuration. by MtViewGuy · · Score: 3, Informative

    I think one of the big issues that is holding back Linux for desktop users is the fact the OS still does not completely support automatic configuration of hardware, especially hot-docked devices through the USB and IEEE-1394 ports. This is something that Windows has done pretty well, especially with Windows 2000 Professional and Windows XP Home/Professional.

    I'm hoping that Linux will incorporate the Open Source equivalent of the Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI) which has been used since Windows 98.

  14. Re:Linux on the desktop by broeman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I never got the feeling that the linux kernel is like the windows kernel32 ... I think he likes KDE because it is trying to move things (like windows is trying to), instead of GNOME, who wants to be perfect and clean (like Apple). Cloning windows/apple is only done because they in a hurry (if you call 5 years fast) wanted to create a usable desktop. Now that OSS is at the point of looking like Windows/Apple, the development can go even further and maybe in new innovative directions.

    --

    (yes this can be compared with sex)
  15. Re:coherent distributed filesystem by ComputerSlicer23 · · Score: 3, Informative
    Intermezzo and GFS/OpenGFS are two I know of.

    Intermezzo sounds like it wants to be the end all be all of every feature you could ever want in a filesystem. Hence I think it won't work.

    GFS is by Sistina (the people behind LVM and Device Mapper in Linux, but not ELVM) and uses SCSI3 locks as it's locking mechanism (the locking mechanism defined at the bottom of the SCSI layer, in version 3 of the standard).

    Sistina did it GPL'ed thru the beta, and then took it propriatary after the beta. Thus OpenGFS was spawned. I haven't seen much out of that. Never used it really.

    Kirby