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Artistic Freedom Vouchers Proposed

Corvus writes "Dean Baker of the Center for Economic and Policy Research has written a paper proposing a system giving everyone a voucher which they could use to support the creative artist/writer/etc of their choice, as a way of avoiding the intrusiveness and inefficiency of the current copyright system." I'm sure I'd use mine on MC Chris.

314 comments

  1. AFV == Good by dolo666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Before we get a whole bunch of people bitching about how this might be a kind of popularity contest, note this quote from the article: "Under plausible assumptions, the savings from reduced expenditures on copyrighted material would vastly exceed the cost of the AFV."

    Public domain software saves everyone money. It's about time something like this AFV came along and hammered out the details on how to achieve it in a way that's cost effective.

    I don't know about you, but my first voucher will go to the person who invented AFV.

    From the article: "There would be two alternative mechanisms through which individuals could use their voucher. As one option they could have the funds paid directly by the government to the creative worker or intermediary of their choice, by indicating their selection on a tax form. Alternatively, they could pay an amount equal to the voucher directly to the creative worker or intermediary of their choice, and then file for a refundable credit on their tax return."

    That's amazing. I hope Canada adpots this as law, and I will vote for any left-friendly politician who supports it.

    1. Re:AFV == Good by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      I will vote for any left-friendly politician who supports it.

      Are you lefty politicians better than ours south of you? Ours usually think that the "D" in front of their names in the congressional roster means "Disney". Frankly, I've got slightly more hope of the "righties" getting it.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    2. Re:AFV == Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Are you lefty politicians better than ours south of you?"

      Let me put it this way: Jack Layton, the leader of the NDP (the furthest left leaning party with a hope of getting anyone in), appeared on "Pot TV" talking about this wonderful substance.

      Jean Chretien, the leader of the Liberals (who are slightly left of centre) has given millions of tax dollars away to liberal supporters for things like virtually private airports on immense estates, while ignoring struggling airports in the west with nearly 30 times the traffic, where private citizens need to donate money just to keep them going. I can't understand why he kept getting elected, if this happened in the states he'd probably be in jail for some of the things he's done.

    3. Re:AFV == Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AFV == Good

      I dunno. Ever since Bob Saget left, America's Funniest Videos just hasn't been that good.

    4. Re:AFV == Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about we print them green and call them dollars ?

    5. Re:AFV == Good by be-fan · · Score: 1

      Sigh. Its a well known fact that conservatives can't read :) He said he'd vote for any left-friendly politician who supports it. This doesn't imply that leftist politicians are more likely to support it. Rather, it implies that the two criteria for him voting for the person are being left-friendly and supporting the proposal. Most likely, he is liberal, and would not want to vote for a conservative even if they did support this proposal --- because they are likely to disagree on most other issues.

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
    6. Re:AFV == Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      No way! The guy they have now is the funniest yet. I actually laugh at the majority of his jokes in a given episode.

  2. A more realistic and effective idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
    1. Re:A more realistic and effective idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, Penny Arcade sure is fucking terrible.

    2. Re:A more realistic and effective idea by Black+Hitler · · Score: 1

      I wonder if I could get a voucher to take money away from Penny Arcade.

    3. Re:A more realistic and effective idea by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say Penny Arcade sucks, but they're overrated. They've been propped up by a free link on the frontpage of Slashdot (one of the most legendary hit-referrers the web has ever known)

  3. Best radio station EVER: www.kexp.org by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd give mine to my local radio station.

    Support local artists by downloading their tracks to check them out, then going to see their shows and buying their CDs!

    1. Re:Best radio station EVER: www.kexp.org by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smart...since the radio station could use any IP for free and still charge for ads. The point is to reward those who create works (like copyright does now), not those who distribute it.

      Idiots like you are exactly why this idea won't work and that's disappointing because it is a great idea.

  4. I'd give mine to Bruce Willis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    If he continues to blow things up in his movies.

  5. So let's say I consider myself an artist... by Teppy · · Score: 2, Funny

    Can I use my voucher to support myself?

    1. Re:So let's say I consider myself an artist... by dolo666 · · Score: 1

      "Can I use my voucher to support myself?"
      That'd be less than a GST rebate. What's the point?

    2. Re:So let's say I consider myself an artist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, as long as you're actually producing something for the public domain.

  6. Just Wondering by Jameth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How they determine who you can give it to?

    I mean, my kid made this awesome finger-painting, so I wanna give the money to him, and thus to me, so I can use it, and I'm not being greedy or anything...really.

    Seriously. How do they define someone who can receive these? Can I give mine to Linus?

    1. Re:Just Wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean, my kid made this awesome finger-painting, so I wanna give the money to him, and thus to me, so I can use it, and I'm not being greedy or anything...really.

      Donanting the money would be a tax deduction, but receiving it would probably count as taxable income (the document wasn't quite clear about this). So the net gain would be 0.

      Also, a minor may not be able to register for the AFV, and I don't know if you'd have the right to register on your kid's behalf.

      Can I give mine to Linus?

      Only if he registered for this and was willing to settle for a much shorter copyright.

    2. Re:Just Wondering by geekee · · Score: 1

      "Can I give mine to Linus?"

      Not unless he renounce the GPL, which requires copyright. This is what the article wants to abolish.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    3. Re:Just Wondering by jadavis · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Agreed!

      This really would just create a "buddy system" where everyone registered with the feds and everyone exchanges with their friend.

      We live in a demand-based economy. Demand is measured with money. It's really hard to determine the demand for something creative with money, because it's not exclusive property. It's not worth $1M to me to develop some some software to use, but it's worth $1 to 1M people to have the software available.

      The solution to me seems to be large groups supporting the system by agreement and pledges. Some people equate this like a government with taxes, but I don't think that's the right approach. The problem with that approach is that the powers we've conceded to the government were designed to protect us against more substantial harm, like someone stealing from us or hurting us physically.

      Maybe the copyright idea will work, but we need to organize into large groups. Maybe the techies organize a software group that develops software, and anyone inside the group has copyright, but has to apy a yearly fee. No legislative changes, just citizens acting in an organized way.

      We don't want to get the government involved with laws an so forth... they will skew demand, and they have powers entirely unnecessary for this type of situation (i.e. jail time and guns aren't really appropriate for this type of situation). The government will still have to enforce the copyrights to encourage people to join these groups (and pay the fees that support, e.g. software), but it's going to be an entirely different scene, I can promise that.

      U.S. citizens need to stop relying on the federal government to perform every citizen organizational function. We're free, and we need to excercize our freedom to associate. If we let the government in on this one any more, they're just going to screw it up even more.

      --
      Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
    4. Re:Just Wondering by axlrosen · · Score: 1

      Donanting the money would be a tax deduction, but receiving it would probably count as taxable income (the document wasn't quite clear about this). So the net gain would be 0.

      No, donating is a tax credit, not a deduction, meaning you get all of the $100 back. The receiver only pays 28% or whatever in taxes, so it would be a net gain. Otherwise the system wouldn't make any sense.

    5. Re:Just Wondering by Hobbex · · Score: 1

      In fact, once he was recieving the money, Linus could probably not work on the Kernel at all. The AFV would compel his work to be the public domain, but any changes to the kernel have to licensed under the GPL.

    6. Re:Just Wondering by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Under this system the GPL would not longer be needed since everything would be in the public domain there is no risk of a corporation stealing it an closing it up.

    7. Re:Just Wondering by SheldonYoung · · Score: 2, Funny

      Can I give mine to Linus?

      I find Schroeder to be much more worthy of an artistic voucher. Man, that kid can wail on the piano.

    8. Re:Just Wondering by monkeyfamily · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, the GPL would still be needed and still need copyright to back it up. Source in the public domain can be used as the basis for a closed source project with intentional incompatibilities. Imagine if MS could take the linux source, add a MS compatibility layer that breaks interoperability with regular linux apps, and then market it as Windows LX. Their fork now has a corp with billions to develop it, but the public no longer gets the advantages source access gives. Without copyright, MS can still just keep their source secret. The point of the GPL is no binaries without source available to those who want it.

    9. Re:Just Wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      excluding your greed, the real question comes down to what is art? and what are expressions of creativity? broadly interpreting art allows people the possibility of keeping/trading/consolidating their vouchers. narrowly interpreting it (you call that music? he's just making noise with feedback...) disavows creativity.

    10. Re:Just Wondering by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      What you fail to recognize is that this proposal means you'd not be allowed to 'close the source' on any software projects.

      'The Freedom Software Committee' would send out an 'enforcer squadron' to your basement if you tried to release binaries without source. Their public domain rubber truncheons would swing forth with righteousness, and you'd find yourself in the back of a dark van headed to who-knows-where to toil for the rest of your life on embedded firmware, in 4-bit assembly language, for the touch panel controller of a children's play-robot.

      There's no way the kind of thing being proposed could be carried out in 'sweet niceness.' Force would be needed, and a very different sort of people would be attracted to the project.

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    11. Re:Just Wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > We live in a demand-based economy. Demand is measured with money. It's really hard to determine the demand for something creative with money, because it's not exclusive property. It's not worth $1M to me to develop some some software to use, but it's worth $1 to 1M people to have the software available.

      You don't understand economics. Demand is a line. The "worth" of a product is based upon the value consumers are willing to spend on it. The supply end, then, is a line for the cost needed to produce the product. The actual price tends to hange around where these two lines converge, in a competitive market. Now, the issue of course is that creative works are covered under monopolistic conditions (copyright). However, various monopolies can compete against each other for similar creative works (staroffice vs ms office, for instance).

      The result is an oligarchy, which isn't nearly as good as truly competitive market since in the end each product isn't a commodity, but then a truly competitive market would mean no copyright and the price of each product would go near the cost of reproduction (so, you'd probably see a lot of web sites who let you d/l just about anything and they'd be paid through ads).

      Now, this is obviously produces the issue that maybe no creative works will work because as you mentioned it probably wouldn't be worth $10M to me to develop. But, things like open source have proven that people *still* produce software even if they're not financial paid off. The problem is that copyright is in itself based on the foundation of censorship, in the form of government sanctioned publications. The fact that it is now being used to freely produce oligarchies doesn't help matters. For all those who claim that capitalism inately produces the "best solution" through the "invisible hand", why is it that they push copyright so hard to fix a problem which has been proven to not exist.

      On a side note, to all those who claim that it would mean the end to technological evolution, etc, I ask you even if there was no copyright, don't you think there'd be a *need* for a usable OS? Don't you think a few companies might form a joint venture to sponser its development? And once it's released, don't you think they'd try to use means other than copyright for lockin? In niche copyright markets, I think large service contracts (a la a lot of MS and IBM business) would work.

    12. Re:Just Wondering by s20451 · · Score: 1

      The solution to me seems to be large groups supporting the system by agreement and pledges.

      This has been tried before. Can you imagine: you're running Linux, and once a year, for a week, Linux stops running ten minutes an hour and bombards you with messages in which Betty White asks you to send money to support this quality program. Send in $30 and get a mug, send in $100 and get a lovely coffee-table book.

      Software supported by ... users like you.

      --
      Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
    13. Re:Just Wondering by Toddlerbob · · Score: 0
      U.S. citizens need to stop relying on the federal government to perform every citizen organizational function. We're free, and we need to excercize our freedom to associate. If we let the government in on this one any more, they're just going to screw it up even more.

      Please don't take this as a troll, because I'm mostly in agreement with many of your points. In a lot of ways I like your idea because it takes a small step in a particular direction, rather than setting up an entire new system from scratch, which is always bound to run into major implementation headaches, and the law of unintended consequences, etc. etc.

      I do think that some sort of change in copyright, or rather, a change in giving artists fair compensation for their work, would be valuable for the reasons citing in the original article -- that monopolies, particularly for-profit monopolies, tend to stifle not only access, but growth. Microsoft is the obvious example.

      Anyway, any change in our present economic system will of necessity require some change in government. One could even argue that the copyright groups you're espousing are a sort of government, or governmental extension.

      In this sense, corporations like Microsoft or Home depot or Walmart are also a sort of government. Government is simply working out a means of living together with one's neighbors. The nice thing about the Federal Government is that it is, at least ostensibly, a non-profit corporation, as are local governments, state governments, etc. That's a critical difference compared to "governments" like SBC or Time Warner.

      I guess my point is this. In everything one does, it's important to have the right tool for the right job. Only the federal government is the right tool for a lot of jobs, particularly those where the entire country has to stand firm, lest states or cities be played off one against the other to the detriment of all. If you read Grover Norquist, you will see that one of the dominent trends in political thinking, the neoconservatives, tries to do precisely that, as he recommends shrinking federal government so that capital in one state that's "badly behaved" can more easily go to another that's "better behaved," at least in terms of the corporate elites.

      If we are to live together, and if we really do want to have any sort of commitment to one another as countrymen, we will need a federal government to safeguard our interests. The twentieth century is a good example of how this can work. I mean, otherwise no one would see an 8-hour work day as anything like normal, and certain of us would still be riding in the back of the bus. Neither of these changes would have happened without a federal government or the American constitution.

      To me, as aggravating as government can be, whether federal, state, city, or township, it is one important way to excercise our freedom to associate, and by no means stands opposed to it. I also think that, particularly to the extent that it is nonprofit, government is not less, but more efficient than the forces that often oppose it, thinking of the trillions lost in savings and loan scandals, Enron collapses, private military contractors, etc. etc. I think that if the cost of that was more consistently factored in, then the "efficiency" of corporations would be seen for what it is.

      Rather than avoiding government, I think it's a better strategy to reform it, a process that's been going on in this country for over 200 years now. In this sense (and getting back to the topic) that's what these vouchers are all about, and also what your ideas about copyright groups are about. I'm excited about both of these ideas, because if we can solve this problem with copyright, there will be a richer and freer life ahead.

    14. Re:Just Wondering by jadavis · · Score: 1

      point taken, but that's the government trying to organize, which is specifically what I was trying to prevent.

      Also, I said members would share in the copyright, therefore fees would only go for future R&D on new createive works, i.e. new patches and so forth. If you're a member when an OS is made, you can use it as much as you want.

      --
      Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
    15. Re:Just Wondering by Dwonis · · Score: 1
      What you fail to recognize is that this proposal means you'd not be allowed to 'close the source' on any software projects.

      AFAICT, the proposal only suggests that Linus would not be allowed to close the source on the software project, but the project itself would be in the public domain. Since copyrights would still exist as an alternative, the GPL would still be needed.

    16. Re:Just Wondering by jadavis · · Score: 1

      Thoughtful post.

      I don't think that with copyright there's any kind of absolute solution. Some people like to think of things as black & white (like abortion), but I think many issues (including abortion) are more complicated, and can't be addressed in binary like that. If everything was like free software, there are certain types of creations that would be impaired due to a lack of incentive.

      I prefer a little bit more chaos that you seem to prefer. I'd rather have a little less unity in our laws between states, but that's a separate issue. Copyright really needs to be handled effectively on a national level, and I'll agree with you there, it's just a question of how much hand they have in deciding what's best. I haven't yet been convinced that any system is better than copyright, but copyright should be reformed.

      Regarding the corporations as governments, I agree, except that there's a huge difference: the government can imprison you, and no corporation can (refrain from obvious comments about Dimitri).

      I think it would go a long way if the timeframe for copyright was much shorter.

      --
      Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
    17. Re:Just Wondering by jadavis · · Score: 1

      You don't understand economics. Demand is a line. The "worth" of a product is based upon the value consumers are willing to spend on it. The supply end, then, is a line for the cost needed to produce the product. The actual price tends to hange around where these two lines converge, in a competitive market. Now, the issue of course is that creative works are covered under monopolistic conditions (copyright). However, various monopolies can compete against each other for similar creative works (staroffice vs ms office, for instance).

      [let Qs = quantity supplied; Qd = quantity demanded]
      If you're at the equilibrium price, where Qd = Qs,
      then P * Qd = revenue

      For a firm to invest in developing a creative work, revenue must be greater than the R&D costs. However, if anyone can copy their R&D work, the copycat firm is able to meet any supply at any price and still profit, thereby driving the supply curve far right and the price at equilibrium down to virtually nothing. So, the firm will simply not invest in R&D if the investment is not protected from copycat firms.

      The only time they will invest in R&D is when the consumer surplus (in this case the consumer of the research is the researching firm itself) from using their own research throughout the firm is greater than the R&D costs. Free software is SO EFFICIENT that this is often the case. It's cheaper for a company of 1000 people to research and fix the cause of a bug in a piece of software and apply it to all the employees' computers than to pay another firm to license their patch 1000 times.

      This is basically a more verbose version of what I was trying to say in my post above. $1M would be the R&D cost in my example, and also in my example, I implied that the consumer surplus for me using my own research (which cost me $1M) would be less than $1M. So, in my example, the firm would simply not produce, even though greater the Qd at $1 is greater than 1M.

      My statement was vague and thanks for pointing out its imprecision.

      For all those who claim that capitalism inately produces the "best solution" through the "invisible hand", why is it that they push copyright so hard to fix a problem which has been proven to not exist.

      First, I never said that. Second, where has it been proven that a world with no copyrights produces more creative works of every variety? Maybe software would benefit, and painting, but maybe movies suffer without copyrights? Maybe novels suffer? It's all left to personal opinion, because you provide no proof for any of that, and no proof even that software would benefit without copyrights, which is the only evidence you provided (an that's anecdotal, at best).

      We do need more scientific analysis in this area to determine what really produces the most creativity, but that's inherently a nebulous goal (creative is in the eye of the beholder), and also requires a lot of experimenting on a live system (which we might hesitate to do, for the same reason we don't replace the VM with the latest and greatest on mission critical live systems).

      Don't you think a few companies might form a joint venture to sponser its development?

      Yeah, that's what I was suggesting when I said that I thought people should organize into similar groups to develop in their common interest. If enough firms get together, their combined consumer surplus (again from using their own research) would be greater than the R&D costs.

      --
      Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
    18. Re:Just Wondering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>For all those who claim that capitalism inately produces the "best solution" through the "invisible hand", why is it that they push copyright so hard to fix a problem which has been proven to not exist.

      >First, I never said that. Second, where has it been proven that a world with no copyrights produces more creative works of every variety? Maybe software would benefit, and painting, but maybe movies suffer without copyrights? Maybe novels suffer? It's all left to personal opinion, because you provide no proof for any of that, and no proof even that software would benefit without copyrights, which is the only evidence you provided (an that's anecdotal, at best).

      I never said you did believe that. I'm sorry if it sounded otherwise. My point wasn't proving that there's "more variety" without copyright. My point was that when there's a demand, a supply emerges, which fulfills the two requirements for a capitalistic market. Maybe you think "more variety" is a good thing. That holds true in most goods because variety causes commoditization to a greater extent than a lack there of. But, the foundation of commoditization is that while there are a finite amount of resources in production which is the major barrier in producing a good, having a variety of substitute goods causes competition which drives the price down and increases consumer surplus.

      Ironically, this could hypothetically hold true for copyrighted works too. The "good" though would be the time/effort in arranging creative works and selling them creating a pretty low but still possible market (think how little things like toothpicks cost; while it is possible to make your own pretty cheaply (more true in the past when there were cuttable trees everywhere), the time spent making toothpicks has a higher opportunity cost than working any place (thanks to minimum wage) and buying them instead). So, I guess another point would be that the opportunity cost *now* of d/ling copyrighted materials is cheaper than buying goods, but that's a result of inflated prices. If prices were a lot more reasonable, the opporunity cost would be less to buy cheap CDs with stuff. There wouldn't be the same margin of profit and anyone could hypothetically sell the CD of stuff (I guess that's a form of variety), but there'd still be profit in the actual selling.

      I guess in the end, my real issue is the way in which most people use the term "more variety" as if it were a good thing. Quantity is not synonymous with quality. And making up laws trying to produce more quantity in the hopes that it produces enough quality to counteract all the possible negative effects caused by copyright is nebulous (nice word choice, btw). I personal believe that laws shouldn't be made up to try to hold up hopes and dreams. If capitalism doesn't work, we should admit it and try to fix it without creating artifical monopolies. We don't know if capitalism works or not with creative works, though, because we've never given it a chance to flurish, and the US government on behalf of copyright owners has consistently pushed the copyright owner agenda into other countries which *prevents* any means of telling how such a situation would work.

      Anything else I need to clarify or missed?

    19. Re:Just Wondering by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      We do need more scientific analysis in this area to determine what really produces the most creativity, but that's inherently a nebulous goal (creative is in the eye of the beholder),

      There's been a bit of scientific, economic, and even legal analysis in this area. The results firmly come down for copyright increasing creativity (at least the sorts of creativity that the public values). So the interesting question becomes "What length of copyright protection best encourages creativity?"

      Of course it varies across the different fields of endeavor. But it seems clear that although SOME copyright greatly inspires an artist to work, the additional incentive falls off quickly after a few years (Corporations decide whether or not to go ahead with a project based on predicted returns in 2 years or in 5. Potential royalties 30 years down the road aren't on their radar).

      And, every increase in copyright duration reduces the abliity of secondary artists to make creative additions in derivative works. Thus it very much appears that the WTO's 75+ year copyright period is at odds with the US Constitution's directive to "Promote the progress of science and the useful arts"

      Interestingly, the US Supreme court has stated that long copyrights are counterproductive in official statements... almost daring someone to launch a lawsuit on those grounds.

    20. Re:Just Wondering by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      No. "Public Domain" is a GPL-compatible license.

      Basically, Linus can take the money, and go ahead and make new Linux features, and release them into public domain. But immediately following that PD release, he (or any member of the public) can release them under GPL as well, for inclusion in the pre-existing Linux tree.

      His additions would be out there in PD for Bill Gates or any other software publisher to re-use, but they'd be in Linux too. I don't think Linus would want to do unpaid coding for Microsoft, so he probably wouldn't accept the voucher- but doing so wouldn't bar him from Linux contributions.

    21. Re:Just Wondering by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      Regarding the corporations as governments, I agree, except that there's a huge difference: the government can imprison you, and no corporation can (refrain from obvious comments about Dimitri).

      Actually there is very little difference between the two. Corporations gain power either through economics (ie. wealth/money) or through power. If they chose the latter alternative, they will use the government. The most powerful and wealthiest corporations are backed by the government. Think about why.

      Hopefully you'll realize one day that you are living in a plutocracy.

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
    22. Re:Just Wondering by Hobbex · · Score: 1


      I thought this way as well at first, but I don't think it's true. Patches against the kernel are (AFAIK) considered derived works of the kernel. Thus taking a patch one has written and saying "this patch is under the public domain" is considered the same as taking a modified version of the kernel and saying "this version is under the public domain". Both are violations of the GPL of previous kernel contributors.

  7. A good alternative to the NEA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    IMO, the National Endowment of the Arts is a waste of taxpayer money, because it blindly pays some unsuccessful artists. This would be a good alternative; give the funding to the artists whose work people actualy like.

  8. My voucher by Ralph+Yarro · · Score: 1

    My vouchers go to whoever will pay me the largest percentage of the value back. Start bidding please.

    --

    The real Ralph Yarro posts as Anonymous Coward. Anyone else is an impostor.
  9. Dead Ringer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ""Dean Baker of the Center for Economic and Policy Research has written a paper proposing a system giving everyone a voucher which they could use to support the creative artist/writer/etc of their choice, as a way of avoiding the intrusiveness and inefficiency of the current copyright system." "

    [Looks through wallet]

    I have a couple of those.

    [Looks again]

    Large demonination too.

  10. Here comes the wuffie points by iCoach · · Score: 1

    Anyone else see a strange correlation between a "voucher" and the wuffie points found in Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom?

    Are we moving to a more meritocratic society?

    'Scuse me I have to go work with my Ad-Hoc...

    -Coach

    --
    "Never upset a goalie, getting hit with a blocker is an unpleasent experience - facemask or not." -Me
    1. Re:Here comes the wuffie points by Jesrad · · Score: 1

      I see it this way:
      You create/invent something useful/recreational. You get paid in vouchers, for a total value that is determined by the rest of the population, in exchange for them to use/benefit from it freely. If you're skilled enough, you can make a living and even get rich (imagine the number of people who'd attribute their vouchers to Linus Torvalds and other Linux contributors).

      Makes sense to me, do I misunderstand something ? It only needs some mechanism to block everyone from using the voucher on themselves (voucher exchange with the neighbour ?), I think this is what Dean Baker means by making people eligible when they contribute to the public domain.

      --
      Maybe we deserve this world ?
  11. RE: I'm sure I'd use mine on MC Chris. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this is because you're a goddamn waste of space

    McEditor : skilless former short-order cook rescued
    from rehab by being given a job as a slashdot
    editor

    yes indeedy

  12. Maybe? by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Its an interesting idea, but its essentially creating a gov't subsidy for 'artists' or at a minimum, the support of artists. We already have a system like this, its called going to the show or buying a shirt and its not a gov't based cash incentive. moving along, this is not, in and of itself a terrible idea, but if the program increases, thats more tax revenue down the toilet. Most important, the idea is just one big IF, because as we all know, the music, tv, and movie industries have a fantastically well organized lobby that would be thrilled to clip the wings off this idea to keep it from taking off :0(

    just my 2 cents

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:Maybe? by cartzworth · · Score: 1

      How about buying vouchers for 1/2 the price you'd like to contribute to the artist - like a savings bond type thing.

    2. Re:Maybe? by Ancient+Devices+King · · Score: 1

      But that's not the idea. The idea is that you would still do all that stuff, but now instead of having to liscense an artist's work to make a derivative work (like sampling of one musician by another), you pay the originator some cash, and then they don't have copyright on their work for some amount of time, during which derivative works can be made. You'd still have bands performing at concerts and selling albums.

      --
      -"It seems like you're trying to exploit a security hole. Would you like help?"
  13. Just In Case.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Artistic Freedom Voucher:
    Internet Age Alternative to Copyrights

    Dean Baker[1]

    November 5, 2003

    Executive Summary

    The institution of copyrights has its origins in the feudal guild system. Copyrights provide an incentive for creative or artistic work by providing a state-enforced monopoly. Like any other monopoly, this system leads to enormous inefficiencies, and creates substantial enforcement problems. The size of these inefficiencies and the extent of the enforcement problems have increased dramatically in the Internet Age, as digital technology allows for the costless reproduction of written material, and recorded music and video material.

    The artistic freedom voucher (AFV) is an alternative mechanism for supporting creative and artistic work. It is designed to maximize the extent of individual choice, while taking full advantage of the potential created by new technology.

    The AFV would allow each individual to contribute a refundable tax credit of approximately $100 to a creative worker of their choice, or to an intermediary who passes funds along to creative workers. Recipients of the AFV (creative workers and intermediaries) would be required to register with the government in the same way that religious or charitable organizations must now register for tax-exempt status. This registration is only for the purpose of preventing fraud - it does not involve any evaluation of the quality of the work being produced.

    In exchange for receiving AFV support, creative workers would be ineligible for copyright protection for a significant period of time (e.g. five years). Copyrights and the AFV are alternative ways in which the government supports creative workers. Creative workers are entitled to be compensated once for their work, not twice. The AFV would not affect a creative workers ability to receive money for concerts or other live performances.

    The AFV would create a vast amount of uncopyrighted material. A $100 per adult voucher would be sufficient to pay 500,000 writers, musicians, singers, actors, or other creative workers $40,000 a year. All of the material produced by these workers would be placed in the public domain where it could be freely reproduced.

    Under plausible assumptions, the savings from reduced expenditures on copyrighted material would vastly exceed the cost of the AFV. Much of this savings would be the direct result of individuals' decisions to use AFV supported music, movies, writings and other creative work in place of copyright-protected work. A second source of savings would be the result of lower advertising costs, since much of the material used in advertising supported media would be in the public domain.

    In contrast to copyright protection, which requires restrictions on the use of digital technology, the AFV would allow for the full potential of this technology to be realized. Creative workers would benefit most when their material was as widely distributed as possible. They would therefore have incentives to promote technologies that allow for recorded music, video, and written material to be transferred as easily as possible. By contrast, copyright enforcement is demanding ever greater levels of repression (e.g. restriction on publishing software codes, tracking computer use, and getting records from Internet service providers) in order to prevent the unauthorized reproduction of copyrighted material. The police crackdowns on unauthorized copying by college students, and even elementary school kids, would be completely unnecessary for work supported by the AFV.

    Introduction

    In the last few years, it has become increasingly apparent that copyrights are an anachronism ill-suited for the Internet Age. The Internet and digital technology make it possible to instantly, and without cost, copy recorded music, movies, or written material. The response of the entertainment and publishing industry to the development of technology has been to demand more r

  14. I love it, but...let's be realistic by Gothic_Walrus · · Score: 2, Insightful
    As great as this idea is, it will never happen. The RIAA, MPAA, and the entertainment industry in general will blow their tops if anything similar to this appears in front of Congress.

    That said, I love this idea. Do actors and musicians really need millions to live on? No. $40,000 a year should be enough for most of them. Live with one car! One house! Don't buy $1,000 suits! Live like a normal American! You don't NEED to be rich to have a good life!

    Beyond that...free is always good. I still don't think it will happen, but I'll support it wholeheartedly if someone tries to make it so.

    /my $.02

    --
    Goo goo g'joob.
    1. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that they're perfectly placed to be the go-betweens in this system, as mentioned in the article... They might find a positive niche for themselves yet 8^)

    2. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you know what $40,000/year gets you in L.A.?

      A one bedroom apartment in a shitty area.

    3. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't live in L.A.

    4. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by mutewinter · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "In exchange for receiving AFV support, creative workers would be ineligible for copyright protection for a significant period of time (e.g. five years)"

      Though I am a strong advoate of copyright/patent reform myself, that does not mean copyright is useless. Without copyright Microsoft could take GPL'ed code, slap it in their software and sell it. Without copyright I, as a painter, could post images on a message board and some 15 year old could rip it off and win some art contest with it (ok, so this has happened anyways.) The point is, abolishing copyright altogether is going to solve very few problems. Copyright needs to be a tool for society as a whole.

      Vouchers? I'm not sure if I can use any adjectives to describe this without a lot of %&#@! To put it bluntly this idea is just dumb. If I want to be a n artist I shouldn't have to register with the government to get re-imbersed. "Sorry Mr. John Doe, but your song 'Fuck Bush' disqualify's you from recieving vouchers." Hell, forget censorship, perhaps the makers of GTA3 will just be ineligable for vouchers.

      $40k a year? Music, ok, but movies? With budgets in the hundreds of millions whose going to be getting all that capital? What a mess.

      Lets take a step away rather than a step toward becoming more dependant on government.

    5. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That said, I love this idea. Do actors and musicians really need millions to live on? No. $40,000 a year should be enough for most of them.

      One problem is that the $40K figure assumes there are only 500K "artists" that register. Banging pots together is "art", as is splashing paint on canvas. Who is to say it isn't? Given those modest requirements, we'll easily see upwards of 20M folks register as artists, diluting the $40K salary to $1K/year. Hardly worth it.

    6. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being able to make lots of money when sucessful is part of what it means to be American. To limit everybody to a certain amount because "that's all they really need" is communism. An actor makes more money for his employer than say an IT support guy, and hence deserves to get paid more. Regardless of the amount of actual work they put in, the quality of their work (relative to the amount of money in brings in for their employer(s)), has EARNED them the right to buy $1000 suits and own multiple cars.

    7. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by rollingcalf · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Without copyright I, as a painter, could post images on a message board and some 15 year old could rip it off and win some art contest with it (ok, so this has happened anyways.)"

      That is plagiarism, and copyright isn't needed to protect against that. If that 15 year old copied a 200-year-old painting (i.e. copyright no longer applies), pretending it was original, he would be kicked out of the contest if the organizers were told the truth. Anybody is free to copy art, music or novels that are no longer copyrighted, but they still can't legitimately claim to be the creator.

      --
      ---------
      There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
    8. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by jadavis · · Score: 1

      Yeah, ultimately vouchers just won't be effective.

      School vouchers, while some might disagree with the idea, at least makes sense. You can measure, to some degree, whether the school is teaching students facts, or just blowing it all on pizza parties. With art, no can do. The whole point of art is that it can't really be measured, so you can't certify someone as an "artist" and deny to someone who's just giving the money to their friend (directly or indirectly).

      --
      Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
    9. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Hobbex · · Score: 1

      Without copyright Microsoft could take GPL'ed code, slap it in their software and sell it.

      How can they sell it without any copyright?

      Without copyright I, as a painter, could post images on a message board and some 15 year old could rip it off and win some art contest with it (ok, so this has happened anyways.)

      Laws against plagiarism do not depend on copyright law, so this is statement is nonsense. (The kid cannot turn in work by Leonardo Da Vinci and claim to be the painter even though that work has no copyright.)

      Vouchers? I'm not sure if I can use any adjectives to describe this without a lot of %&#@! To put it bluntly this idea is just dumb. If I want to be a n artist I shouldn't have to register with the government to get re-imbersed. "Sorry Mr. John Doe, but your song 'Fuck Bush' disqualify's you from recieving vouchers." Hell, forget censorship, perhaps the makers of GTA3 will just be ineligable for vouchers.

      I tend to agree, but this proposal is not that bad compared to most "compensation via government" schemes. The choice on allocating the voucher would be individual - the governments roll is rather limited (the governments roll here is to put a gun to our heads and tell us we have to spend $100 on some artist).

      $40k a year? Music, ok, but movies? With budgets in the hundreds of millions whose going to be getting all that capital? What a mess.

      Eben Moglen made a very good analogy about this: pyramids. Multimillion dollar movies are pretty cool, but pyramids are much cooler. Yet we will not return to a society with human dieties and indentured mass servitude so that more pyramids can be built. Perhaps not having any more high budget movies isn't that great a price to pay for not getting stuck in an unsustainable and unfree society.

    10. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Hatta · · Score: 1

      You have a very strange definition of the word "earned".

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    11. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Meor · · Score: 1

      I don't even know with where to start on you. I'm very very glad you have no power to change laws, your ideas are terrible.

    12. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "As great as this idea is, it will never happen. The RIAA, MPAA, and the entertainment industry in general will blow their tops if anything similar to this appears in front of Congress."

      It's interesting that we so fear the RIAA, to the extent that they're considered to have complete control of congress.

    13. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by BuckaBooBob · · Score: 1

      Hollywood and the record industry have way too much focused on money... The product is the end result of marketing surveys and past history...

      It has been said that there are no new ideas for hollywood to explore.. Every origonal idea has been explored and now any movie can be descibed as a combination of older movies.

      How many times during a movie have you seen scenes that seem to be trown in that have little or nothing to do with plot development and any other aspect of the movie? or Pointless plot elements... This is the result of the Marketing Formula's that degrades the quality of the movie.. Valid elements are being left out to make room for this marketing mess...

      Its seems all too common people think money will fix problems... so they trow money at the problem in hope it will go away... or achiving quality...

      Saleries of Actor's/Actresses are far too high.. again for the most part Marketing experience says they this actor will attract people to the theater... and if we spend X ammount on advertising we should see this ammount of return on investment as long as the movie doesn't suck too bad... I think maybe somethime in the not too distance future they will start to realise they are brewing thier demise.

      --
      Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
    14. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by peddrenth · · Score: 1

      "Banging pots together is "art", as is splashing paint on canvas. Who is to say it isn't? Given those modest requirements, we'll easily see upwards of 20M folks register as artists, diluting the $40K salary to $1K/year. Hardly worth it."

      You assume that as many people will donate their voucher to an unemployed scammer, as to the musicians they regularly listen to. Is such an assumption really valid, or would you expect the 1/x statistical distribution that you see in every other such market? The better the work, the more you get paid.

    15. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Lehk228 · · Score: 1
      Though I am a strong advoate of copyright/patent reform myself, that does not mean copyright is useless. Without copyright Microsoft could take GPL'ed code, slap it in their software and sell it.
      and without copyright you could crack Microsoft software and give it away for free, so it balances quite nicely, the greedy can take what they want but won't make any money while those creating for recognition and the benefit of all will do well.
      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    16. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by mutewinter · · Score: 1

      Let me refine that arguement with a specific example. There was a website that published original articles about sea survival as well as some other general survival topics. Well aparently some other company ripped the content, slapped it together, and put it in some book that ended up in grocery stores. If there was no copyright, whichever company that spent the most on marketing or had the greatest distribution would profit the most from original work.

      Just because an item has no copyright and is available for free doesn't mean its not profitable. I can get any number of public domain works from Project Gutenburg but I if I really want to read them I don't. Its those companies that print the public domain material that are getting the profit from it. Even if there are vouchers someone is still going to be selling CDs, books, music, etc. (at a much cheaper price of course)

      Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean I think public domain is bad. What it means is that I think that there should be a reasonable limit (20 years sounds good to me) were the creator of a copyrighted work is entitled for commercial profits from something he created. Of course the defination of commercial profits opens up another whole can of worms. Copyright reform is by no means an easy subject to tackle.

    17. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by mutewinter · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that there are people out there who buy one painting in their lifetime, and theres others who buy one hundred. Spreading this out through society as a whole like butter on bread creates gross distortions. As you said measuring the value of art is hard to do (I'll take that a step further, measuring the value of anything is *extraordinarily* hard to do without a free market.) If John-who-just-dropped-out-of-art-school gets paid as much as Boris Vallejo, everyone working at McDonalds is suddenly going to want to be John-who-just-dropped-out-of-art-school, and Boris might just consider a new career in teaching art rather than producing work for the enjoyment of his fans. Sure there are people who do work for "the love of it" as many open source programmers here can relate, but when push comes to shove money plays quite an important factor (which isn't a bad thing either because the world may need a million farmers not a million Bill Clintons.)

    18. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "That said, I love this idea. Do actors and musicians really need millions to live on? No. $40,000 a year should be enough for most of them. Live with one car! One house! Don't buy $1,000 suits! Live like a normal American! You don't NEED to be rich to have a good life!"

      The sad thing is that many people who are in favor of this idea seem to be driven by jealousy.

      I don't begrudge anybody who's successful, as long as they've done it legally and ethically. If somebody's managed to sell a million copies of a CD filled with music that I personally find to be terrible, or gets a million people to see their terrible film or read their awful book, I'm not bothered much. It's differences in artistic taste that make our society such an interesting place, and if somebody can get a million people to buy anything, then God bless 'em. They deserve it.

      Another thing I like about our society is the notion that if you get the right education and make the right choices, you have the ability to make a lot of money. I'm not about to say that any class of people only "deserve" a certain level of income, and I certainly wouldn't anybody saying it about people in my profession. And the rationalization that any artist who would be uppity enough to want to make more than $40K a year isn't a true artist is absolutely bogus.

      By the way, if you've read the article and $40K a year sounds like a lot of money to you, it's not. As you get older and you start taking on responsibilities, you need more money. Characterizing somebody who makes more than $40K a year as somebody who wears "$1,000.00 suits" is another dangerous mistake. Making more than $40K a year also allows you to have children, to feed and clothe them, to spend money on the arts, and to hopefully leave something for them when you pass on.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    19. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by mutewinter · · Score: 1

      How can they sell it without any copyright?

      The same way CDs sold when Napster was around. Not everyone has the knowledge, ablity, or resources to obtain things that are free somewhere in the world. Granted it would be hard for Microsoft to sell software. I'd venture to guess there'd be 50 startups trying to copy and box the software as cheap as possbile, and 50,000 websites offering for download.

      Laws against plagiarism do not depend on copyright law, so this is statement is nonsense. (The kid cannot turn in work by Leonardo Da Vinci and claim to be the painter even though that work has no copyright.)

      I just answered this in another thread, one up I think.

      I tend to agree, but this proposal is not that bad compared to most "compensation via government" schemes.

      I agree with you there

      Perhaps not having any more high budget movies isn't that great a price to pay for not getting stuck in an unsustainable and unfree society.

      Pyramids may be cool to us, but at the time they weren't cool to the people who built them. More or less they were built for one person. As far as I can tell movies are pretty cool for the people who make them. They must be cool for most of the people who shell out $7+ to go watch them (I'm not sure why they would otherwise, short of some trailer that didn't quite show the movie in its true light.) Either way people do go see movies time and time again and have been for decades so they can't be all that bad. As for society being unsustainable if technology stops progressing at the rate it has for the last 100 years, yes. Unfree? I'm not sure we are there yet but I would agree with someone who said we were getting close.

    20. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "You have a very strange definition of the word "earned"."

      Actually, he's right on the money.

      If you paint the world's most beautiful painting and you sell it for $1MM, you have earned that million. If you somehow manage to sell a million chunks of dried rat turd for a buck a piece, you've still earned a million bucks. And if you have a million dollars in the bank, you have the right to buy a $1,000 suit, to give $1,000 to a homeless puerson, or light ten $100 bills on fire. It's a free market economy.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    21. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by mutewinter · · Score: 1

      Too much money? Maybe, but thats because people went and saw their movies, or bought their albums.

      No new ideas? I could argue with you there. Maybe theres not alot, but I wouldn't go as far as saying none.
      As far as marketing, don't forget who the movie is for. Its not for the hardcore film buff, its for the people who actually go see them. If I do something and people like it, I'm going to do it again. Eventually they'll get bored, but it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to do something absolutely completely different. When you are talking of hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe risking it all is worth it once and a while. If you had 100 million how much risk would you take to turn it into a billion?

    22. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Hobbex · · Score: 1

      Just because an item has no copyright and is available for free doesn't mean its not profitable. I can get any number of public domain works from Project Gutenburg but I if I really want to read them I don't. Its those companies that print the public domain material that are getting the profit from it. Even if there are vouchers someone is still going to be selling CDs, books, music, etc. (at a much cheaper price of course)

      Just because people are printing and selling books with a certain text on them, does not mean they are making money off the text. People also make and sell books with empty pages - are they making money off nothing?

      The world is full of low margin markets for products that include absolutely no intellectual property. Somebody is making money off nails, paperclips, cottonballs, etc etc - things anybody could make if they just invested in them. People publishing public domain books are just like that - they make whatever unspectacular margins that natural competition establishes. To say that they are making money off the texts or authors is silly.

    23. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by 2short · · Score: 1

      "Pyramids may be cool to us, but at the time they weren't cool to the people who built them."

      Just for some random nit-picking: Pyramids may well have been cool to the people who built them. While the slaves-under-the-taskmasters-whip theory has been popular with Hollywood, there's not much evidence that's how it was. Many experts would suggest that the experience of those who built the pyramids might not have been "slavery" but "religious fervor".

    24. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Eben Moglen made a very good analogy about this: pyramids. Multimillion dollar movies are pretty cool, but pyramids are much cooler. Yet we will not return to a society with human dieties and indentured mass servitude so that more pyramids can be built. Perhaps not having any more high budget movies isn't that great a price to pay for not getting stuck in an unsustainable and unfree society.


      I don't think pyramids are cooler than big budget movies at all. I don't see how anyone beside an archeologist would enjoy a trip to a pyramid more than a trip to see Raiders of the Lost Ark. I also see no reason to think that human deities and slavery are necessary to build one today. In fact, I would suppose that building one would be easy and extremely cheap compared to most modern construction projects. This hasn't been done because, uh... there are so many other cool things to do with big money -- like make movies for example. As far as your point about sacrificing big budget movies for a greater good goes, I've got to wonder exactly how the production of Terminator 3 or Titanic engenders an "unsustainable and unfree society".

      ...the governments roll here is to put a gun to our heads and tell us we have to spend $100 on some artist...


      Well if I thought there was something incredibly stupid about this idea at first glance, I know it's not worth thinking about at all if it can be spun like that...

    25. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you been to Vegas lately? A society with human deities and indentured mass servitude is not a -requirement- in order to build pyramids.

      Especially as newer archelogical evidence shows that the builders were fairly well paid craftspeople.

    26. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      I highly doubt that. The reason many people don't push the slave theory is because it is very hard to obtain proof.

      I, as well as many, believe the slave theory. Egyptian economy ran on slavery. They were probably the first civilization to use slaves en masse. That is pretty much accepted by anthropologists and some sociologists (what is not accepted is whether slaves were used to build the Pyramids). Given that, it is plausible that slaves were used in construction of the Pyramids. Was religion involved? Sure. But it was the slaves doing the work.

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
    27. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      It has been said that there are no new ideas for hollywood to explore.. Every origonal idea has been explored and now any movie can be descibed as a combination of older movies.

      People who say that are conservatives or moderates. There are a ton of new movies every year. Instead of watching the big blockbusters, why don't you watch the smaller, unheard of, gems?

      How many times during a movie have you seen scenes that seem to be trown in that have little or nothing to do with plot development and any other aspect of the movie? or Pointless plot elements... This is the result of the Marketing Formula's that degrades the quality of the movie.. Valid elements are being left out to make room for this marketing mess...

      I agree...but you have alternatives. Why not watch some foreign films? Why not watch independent films? Why even rely on Hollywood?

      Saleries of Actor's/Actresses are far too high..

      Under capitalism, there is no such thing as salaries being too high. There are sports athletes, "consultants", political aides, and CEOs making millions (in some cases 100milllion per year). Under capitalism, whether you make $10million or $100million, it's cool; just like, whether you make $100 or $10000, it's cool too (although minimum wage legislation blocks low wages).

      Having said that, I'm an anti-capitalist and hence agree with you that salaries are too high. But changing it would require a REVOLUTION. You can't do it under capitalism (after all, if movie stars make too much? how about CEOs? how about football players? etc)

      I think maybe somethime in the not too distance future they will start to realise they are brewing thier demise.

      No they wouldn't. My theory of capitalism is that free markets will result in oligopolies and monopolies. So what would happen in this case is that the studios (and others with vested interest) will monopolize the market such that there is no other competition. This is already happening. Hollywood is far more powerful than ever and can run over an independent studio, or a foreign studio any day of the week. So, what I expect is the opposite: instead of they brewing their demise, they will lock up all consumers with their goods.

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
    28. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      The sad thing is that many people who are in favor of this idea seem to be driven by jealousy.

      Are you sure about that? I, being a socialist, will claim it has more to do with ideology than jealousy. It is basically a conflict between egalitarianism and elitism masquerading itself as meritocracy.

      Another thing I would like to add is that this conflict has nothing to do with money. Instead, it is all about POWER. Since money is the most powerful entity under capitalism, that is what we talk about. However, if we were living in an alternate society, it could be respect, or fame, or something. What is troublesome to me is not the fact that some people are extremely rich. I'm not materialistic and I could care less (my goal in life is not to live in a big house in a gated community, with a sports car, with a beautiful wife--I mean it, it's not my desire :) ). What is important is that money can be TRANSLATED to power under capitalism. The fact that a rich guy gets preferential treatment from the police, or the fact that a rich guy can avoid paying taxes by declaring himself a corporation, or the fact that you literally need to be a millionaire to run for president, or the fact that rich corporations have greater access to government, is what it is really all about! Money is not important...power is.

      I don't begrudge anybody who's successful, as long as they've done it legally and ethically.

      I claim that ethics and success are mutually exclusive...

      Another thing I like about our society is the notion that if you get the right education and make the right choices, you have the ability to make a lot of money. I'm not about to say that any class of people only "deserve" a certain level of income...

      You just contradicted yourself. Do you claim that certain jobs deserve low pay? Or do you not? You cannot say that you believe the "right" education and "right" choices will make you rich, and then claim that you are not making a statment on the class nature of society. Either you support classes or you oppose them!

      By the way, if you've read the article and $40K a year sounds like a lot of money to you, it's not.

      This is probably the only thing I agree with. I agree that $40k is not much. It has to be adjusted for inflation and cost of living (eg. location). In rural areas, $40k is good but in cities, $40k is just enough. Having said that, the $40k, which is probably the American and Canadian average (in CAN$), is what most people live on. It shows the pathetic state of the world.

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
    29. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that those who change the laws have bright ideas?

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
    30. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's interesting that we so fear the RIAA, to the extent that they're considered to have complete control of congress.

      What's your point? The RIAA has demonstrated its substantial (not complete, but substantial) control of Congress. A lot of people (too few to be effective at the ballot-box, but still a lot) have noticed. What's interesting about that?

    31. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "Are you sure about that? I, being a socialist, will claim it has more to do with ideology than jealousy."

      Sadly, I am. While you have the inarguable courage and the conviction of your beliefs, too many of the responses have that reek of resentment toward uppity artists who have made more than they deserve.

      "You just contradicted yourself. Do you claim that certain jobs deserve low pay? Or do you not? You cannot say that you believe the "right" education and "right" choices will make you rich, and then claim that you are not making a statment on the class nature of society. Either you support classes or you oppose them!"

      "Right" is contextual. The right thing is whatever makes you happy. For me, that's money -- and for those who point out that money doesn't buy happiness, it sure beats the hell out of being poor. And to be clear, by "right education" I certainly don't exclusively mean prep schools and Ivy League universities. I have no such thing, but I knew what I needed to learn and I worked hard at absorbing the right things. It's served me well.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    32. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 1
      There was a website that published original articles about sea survival as well as some other general survival topics. Well aparently some other company ripped the content, slapped it together, and put it in some book that ended up in grocery stores. If there was no copyright, whichever company that spent the most on marketing or had the greatest distribution would profit the most from original work.

      You mean the book publisher showed initiative which the original website didn't. The publisher maximized the market value of the work, thus showing how the free market increases the value of the whole.

      This is bad how?

      Rich.

    33. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by mutewinter · · Score: 1

      They are making money off whatever they are doing. If they aren't then they aren't going to be doing it for long. Why would I invest say $100k in a company with no return if I could throw it in something as simple as a bank account and actually get a return off of it. Unspectacular or not, they are doing so in hopes that they will at sometime be able to make an above average return some day. Maybe printing public domain books for a few years is all a start-up printer has the capital to do.

    34. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by mutewinter · · Score: 1

      Great, now your trying to make me argue against a completely free market :)

      The problem is it disconnects the market value from the person who originally created the intellectual property. Because this person can not value their work because some one else is depraving them of numbers coming in, they can not judge whether or not they should continue doing what they did in the past.

      This does not mean, however, that intellectual property rights should be permanant. They should be limited to ensure that after a set period of time, in which an IP owner may abandon that IP, others can then move in and capitalize on that work.

    35. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 1
      OK, this is a good argument you're making. Basically that artists only work when they get paid.

      I don't know if it's true or not. Intuitively I think it could be argued either way. We might equally make a case that artists work for their art, and don't give a toss about money.

      I don't know which of these ways of looking at it is correct. But it is at least measurable. It should be possible to perform a scientific study to find out which is correct, then adjust copyright laws, or remove them, as appropriate.

      Of course I'm living in a pie-in-the-sky world now, considering our current politicians!

      Rich.

    36. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by 2short · · Score: 1

      The economies of the Middle and Late Kingdoms certainly ran on slavery, and used slaves "en masse". But the Early Kingdom, which built the Pyramids, had much less contact with the outside world (i.e. they did not conquer vast swaths of their neighbors as the latter kingdoms did). So one might reasonably assume they had less in the way of foreign slaves to press into pyramid building labor.
      All that said, when you have peasants in a theocracy who are building Pyramids at the direction of a deified monarch, and who presumably could not choose to go do something else if they wanted to, whether you call them "slaves" or not is fairly academic.
      After generations of theocracy, you're going to have a fair number of willing local laborers. The entire society was directed at pyramid building to such a degree it eventually collapsed under the economic weight of so much effort going to non-productive use.
      It seems to me the Early Kingdom would not have had massive numbers of unwilling foreign laborers, but would have had massive numbers of willing locals. So it seems reasonable to me to that most of the people pulling those blocks up to the top were pulling because they thought it was a good thing to do; or at least, because everyone else was doing it; but probably not because some taskmaster was whipping them into pulling harder.
      Anyway, I'll happily debate whether foriegn slaves played a significant part in pyramid building, and happily admit I don't know for sure.
      What gets me annoyed is I know a depressing number of people who think the image from "The Ten Commandments" of the Egyptian taskmaster whipping the jewish slaves into pulling the blocks up the pyramid is established historical fact. Dreck. When Egypt conquered Judea, the last pyramids were already 500-1000 year old ruins being stripped to build cities.

    37. Re:I love it, but...let's be realistic by mutewinter · · Score: 1

      Not exactly. I wouldn't go as far as making a blanket statement like that. Everyone works for any number of personal reasons, whether money or otherwise. What I am saying is that without money the artist is more working for his or herself rather than producing content that others demand. Even this isn't a very clear example as I'm sure the majority of artists work reflects their own enjoyment. It could even be argued that some artists would produce best without having to worry about money, and that an arguement I'm not going to try arguing against.

      I think it would be extremely hard to conduct any types of studies and then attempt to apply them to society as a whole. Some things work for some people, other things would be a disaster. Obviously we have laws against murder and rape, but very few people not only in society but history seriously question these. Perhaps simply relaxing existing laws might give everyone a more comfortable future.

      What I do know is that we have too many laws reguarding copyright and IP today and those that we do have serve the interests of a few. Over the next decade or so conflicts between the DMCA and fair are going to make life quite hard for certain people. The current legal situation practically makes everyone a criminal, and thats where the real problem with copyright lays. This opens a hole allowing lawyers to engage in legal terrorism against people who are otherwise doing everything right. This is what SCO and certain other companies are doing right now with their so called patents.

      I think that the best thing to do might be create several different groups, each trying their own thing. And yes even a group of artists that does accept vouchers. I think on a much smaller scale this could indeed work, but to throw every artist out there into it would be a mistake.

  15. Re:Not an alternative to the NEA by Jameth · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Heck No! Not a replacement at all!

    Without funding for unsuccessful artists trying random crap, you get recycled crap. And, yes, I honestly prefer random crap to recycled crap.

    The NEA is still useful, as the majority of people have shitty taste. Just using this vouchers system would result in most of the money going to Britney and N'Sync. And then, I'd have to kill myself (shortly preceded by a few hundred random idiots).

  16. Secondary Market for AFV by G4from128k · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Interesting idea. I wonder how long it will take before a secondary market forms to buy/sell these vouchers. Since the cost of vouncher to the owner is less than voucher's benefit to the artist, there is opportunity for the sale of voucher rights. For example, an artist might pay $10 (up to $99 if the artist is in a 0% tax bracket) to people to sign their $100 voucher over them. The voucher owner gets cash and a tax break, the "artist" gets $100 minus what they paid to buy the vouncher.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:Secondary Market for AFV by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      What you are saying already happens, although it is done convertly. It is called advertising and promotions. When companies advertise, they are spending money to court customers. It's the same thing as what you are saying. In some sense, the artist is "advertising" to get your money. THe only difference here is that it is direct promotion as opposed to indirect ones carried out by businesses and large corporations.

      When you watch television, the station is not showing programs to you; they are selling you to the advertisers.

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
    2. Re:Secondary Market for AFV by spitzig · · Score: 1

      People can do that anyway, and cut out the middle man(vouchers). Just give someone the money.

  17. I see on major weakness. by amcnabb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the article he said that under the current system a minority of the artists are making a majority of the money. I think that under the proposed system this would not be solved and might be even worse. There is a small number of artists that most people consider their favorites, and people would tend to elect for their money to go to them rather than going to all of the people they listen to. So the most popular artists would still make tons, and few people would send money to the little guys. The proposed system of intermediaries might help a little, but I still think that come April 15, most people would just write down the first name that they think of.

    1. Re:I see on major weakness. by dolo666 · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing it wouldn't be Britney Spears.

  18. MC Chris sucks, no really he sucks! by t0qer · · Score: 1


    I'm sure I'd use mine on
    MC Chris.


    On a whim I thought I would check out MC Chris and try and find any music
    samples I could listen too. I found
    one and I have to say that
    is the worst thing my ears have ever heard. Did I mention I work weekends
    at a karaoke bar? We have regulars that think they're going to be
    discovered there, and this guy sounds about 10 times worse.



    1. Re:MC Chris sucks, no really he sucks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? It's just MC Pee Pants getting down with his jive self. It's cool, it's cool.

    2. Re:MC Chris sucks, no really he sucks! by Quobobo · · Score: 1

      You obviously don't watch Sealab 2021 or Aqua Teen Hunger Force then...

    3. Re:MC Chris sucks, no really he sucks! by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      If you said that MC Chris's music sucked poop through a straw made of frozen poop, it would be unfair to music that in fact did suck poop through a straw made of frozen poop.

      With the exception of how funny the MC Pee Pants stuff was, MC Chris is awful.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    4. Re:MC Chris sucks, no really he sucks! by shaitand · · Score: 1

      wtf are sealab 2021 and aqua teen hunger force and why on earth would I want to watch either?

    5. Re:MC Chris sucks, no really he sucks! by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      wtf are sealab 2021 and aqua teen hunger force
      They are cartoons on the Cartoon Network Adult Swim

      and why on earth would I want to watch either?
      because they're funny as hell (YMMV)

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  19. Just crossed my mind by Jameth · · Score: 1

    What happens when most people don't bother?

    I mean, most people don't vote for president, or bother with much of anything else. How would they make this easy enough to do that it would be resilient to fraud and commonly done?

    1. Re:Just crossed my mind by osmodion · · Score: 1

      This was the first thing to cross my mind - even though the proposed system is tax deductible, you still end up with less cash in your pocket.

      Along those lines, the RIAA has placed most of the blame on college students, who typically don't have a lot of spare money to begin with. Who's going to convince them to switch from free (albeit illegal) music to spending the cost of text book on music?

    2. Re:Just crossed my mind by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >college students, who typically don't have a lot
      >of spare money to begin with.

      Around here, they seem to be able to afford 2004 model cars, they buy houses instead of renting, they wear designer clothes, and they make a nightclub scene rich with their drinking.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  20. Vouchers by JamesKPolk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We already have a system of vouchers which can be given to artists, who in turn can exchange them for goods and services. Those vouchers are called "money."

    1. Re:Vouchers by Peyna · · Score: 1

      But how do I give this money to artists directly? Everytime I try to it seems like this mysterious group of people wearing black coats that say things like "MPAA", "Producer", "Agent", and "Record Label" mug me and take 99% of the money away. By the time I get to the artists house to give my voucher to him, all he gets is a little nip off the corner.

      --
      What?
    2. Re:Vouchers by JamesKPolk · · Score: 1

      At no time does anything stop you from sending a check to an artist.

      We're talking about giveaways here, not buying CDs or paintings or whatever.

    3. Re:Vouchers by axlrosen · · Score: 1

      Yes, but that stops working if people can get the goods for free over file-sharing networks. This proposal is trying to solve that problem, as well as do away with copyright, which some people would like to see axed.

    4. Re:Vouchers by Peyna · · Score: 1

      So, if I want to listen to their music, I have to pay $15 for a cd. If I want to actually support them so they can make more music, I have to send $15 to their house?

      Here's a better idea. Give them 50% of the original $15.

      --
      What?
    5. Re:Vouchers by Spy+Hunter · · Score: 1
      Yes, but giving artists money costs us money, and therefore we won't do it without an incentive. The incentive used to be that we would get a copy of the artistic work, but on the Internet where any artistic work can be copied instantly for free that incentive is out the window. Using one of these vouchers costs nothing to the person using it, so artists can still get money from us even though we have less of a reason to pay them because we can get their works for free.

      When the artists' works are free, the only reasons we have to pay them are our sense of fairness (the author deserves to get paid) and to encourage more works (if the author gets paid, he will produce more cool stuff). These reasons aren't enough to make us spend our own money, but we'll happily spend someone else's money if it costs nothing to ourselves. That's what these vouchers are: a way to spend someone else's money on supporting artists that you like.

      --
      main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
    6. Re:Vouchers by JamesKPolk · · Score: 1

      That's the artist's choice to make, not yours.

    7. Re:Vouchers by kfg · · Score: 1

      No, only a facsimile of an artistic work can be exchanged over the internet. If you want "Stary Night" you'll still have to buy it. It is unique.

      So are my musical concerts. True, you may well record one on stick on the internet, but that isn't the artistic work.

      The problem with plans such as the one proposed is they don't essentially solve the problem, but more importantly they actually entrench the problem by mandating a particular, and rather myopic view, of just what the problem is. Art is not defined as a file on the internet, but it could be through a formal system.

      I like to define what I think is art with my dollars. I do not want someone to vote some of my dollars to say that Britney Spears is an artist. It cuts both ways you see.

      I support artists directly. I put money, directly, into their hands.

      It works for me. It could work for just about everybody, if they started thinking of "artists" as people who produce art, rather than "product."

      KFG

    8. Re:Vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why limit yourself to $15? You are free to give the artist whatever you want.

    9. Re:Vouchers by Spy+Hunter · · Score: 1
      No, only a facsimile of an artistic work can be exchanged over the internet.

      There are two kinds of works produced by artists: ones that are easily digitized and copied and ones that are not. They are both valuable to society, and both equally worthy of the name "art".

      Some types of artists produce more of one, and some produce more of the other. Artists such as sculptors who produce hard-to-copy works can continue to use the copyright system as it was designed (...until we get our 3D printers!). But artists such as movie directors who produce nothing that is hard to duplicate will have a hard time surviving when all their works can be had for free over the Internet. Artists who produce both kinds of works equally will have their revenue suddenly cut in half.

      The government would like to encourage the production of easily-copied works. Copyright isn't a good solution to the problem because it requires us to enforce the law in a heavy-handed way and cripple technology, losing many of its benefits. In addition, even the heavy-handed law enforcement may fail, making copyright basically useless. Abolishing copyright with no replacement isn't a good solution because that would be a serious disincentive for the production of easily-copied works, which are valuable to society. This system seems better than both alternatives to me.

      --
      main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
    10. Re:Vouchers by CanadaDave · · Score: 1

      Don't blame them. Blame the artist. If the artist wanted your money directly, he would ask for it directly. But instead, he/she decided to go through a "record label", "producer", "agent", etc... That's the way the business is. Blame the stupid artists, IMHO. And if it's too hard for independant's to get their foot in the door, ie. to see their home-burnt CDs at Virgin, HMV, etc... then blame the record stores and/or anyone else that prevents this from happening. And if no option feels right for you, leech off Kazaa while it's still quasi-legal... I mean quasi-decriminalized. Or leave the US if that's where you live now. And start LEACHING!!!!!!!!!!!! Those things you listed aren't mugging just you, they're mugging the artist.

    11. Re:Vouchers by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      We already have a system of vouchers which can be given to artists, who in turn can exchange them for goods and services. Those vouchers are called "money."
      Exactly. What I'd really like to see is no government involvment where doesn't have to be any. Here are some ideas for a system: Every artist should create their own PGP-like key, have a central registrar like IP addresses in the DNS - so that no 2 keys are duplicated, just like IP addresses. Then that artist can include this indentity key into any creation they make - software, music, movies, books. This way everyone is uniquely tagged and at least when you consume a movie, you automatically have a list of identities that created it. Next you need a private software utility to aid you, sort of a monitor/journal that keeps track of what artistic things you consume - say you surf with mozilla a 90% of the time and 3 hrs a day, that's a bit of info, then yahoo is your homepage and you look at finance and news there, or google is your search engine, and you use linux a lot, and you listen to music made by a band of 5 musicians) You might wish to be able to see at the end of each month a statistic - a bar chart of what you actually used. Then you can make up your mind how you want to donate to these people. For instance say there was a movie like Basic Instinct. This is a collective art - so how do you reward the individuals in it? Does everybody gets paid equally including the lighting technician and Sharon Stone? That'd be wrong. Well you could either click high votes for Sharon Stone flashing her cooter for you, but also to the writers to come up with such a funky content, or agree with a group of like minded people who have already come up with a collective discrimination of what the % would be for each person - for instance a database like cddb/slashdot could show the current rating of how other people donate - 30% to the writers/20% to Stone, 20%% to the director, with the distribution curve down to some standard 1% for the lighting tehcnicians, etc. If you really want, you could tweak this curve up or down say up stone to 31%, director to 19%, leave the lighting techs and makeup artists alone - those could be kept at the default of "manufacturer recommended setting." You could hire professional critics to do the work for you, because all this is a hassle, just like you can hire accountants and tax people to handle a similar information hassles for you. Or, you could rely on the average of a bunch of critics. Or you could go by some standard understanding that in a restaurant you tip 15%. Yeah some people tip 30%, some tip 5% but very few tip 200% or .05%, unless you have very speacial reasons. Just as interest rates could go up and down, so could these %s. Then you decide you're about to donate say 100 bux, and look at your bar chart of who gets how much of it: - the linux team would get 5%,(out of witch say KDE would get .1%, gnome would get .1%, (out of which Miguel de Icaza 0.001% - you get the picture)), Sharon Stone would get 1%, the Basic Instinct lighting techs fund 0.0001%. You'd look at this, and say nah, Stone is getting too much, and Linus not enough, so you tweak it til you like it. Is it fair? No. You could get circular things that don't make sense at all when you want to rank people: like Linus>Sharon, Sharon>Britney, Britney>Linux - ok not a good example, but you get the point. How do you measure artistic value exactly? You can't, artistic value is not measurable, it defies logic. So what's the whole point then to measure? Well, the whole point is a sustainable economy where the artist gets to feed. This depends purely on your donations. It would be like tips in a restaurant - sure if you don't want to, you don't have to tip - in a restaurant you stare the waitress in the face, it's one on one there so it's stressful not to donate. In a church of 100 people, it's even less stressful not to donate. And in a society of a few hundred million, just taking and not giving back,

    12. Re:Vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So my $0 is still good?

  21. you say MC Chris by zephc · · Score: 2, Funny

    I say M.C. Hawking

    "E" stands for energy, yo that's me,
    I'm a brilliant scientist and a dope MC.
    Before you step to me I'd think twice G,
    I'm the Lord of Chaos, King of Entropy.

    --
    "I would say that 99 per cent of what my father has written about his own life is false." - L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
  22. Give me a break by alex_ant · · Score: 0

    The only reason slashbots don't like the current copyright system is that they want to be able to get all their mp3s and divxes of copyrighted shows/movies for free, legally, like they can the latest linux distro.

  23. copyright != feudalism by geekee · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The majority of important work in a book is the actual writing by the author. Other costs such as printing are incidental, and are becoming even less of a factor with digital reproduction. Therefore, it is even more important now then ever to protect copyright. An author needs compensation to pursue his trade. Copyright didn't originate with feudalism, but as an attack on feudalism. It was the merchants and craftmans that formed the middle class which helped destroy feudalism, a system in which land was owned arbitrariyl by aristocrats, who forced peasants to till the land and took most of the profits, distributing a small amount to the peasants to keep them alive. So familiar. Socialism is not much different than feudalism. A small minority (the rulling class or govt.) comtrols all the wealth, and doles out enough for the proletariat to keep them alive. Albolishing copyright is socialism, a concept where the public automatically owns the work of an author. Supporting such a concept is supporting theft, and hinders creativity and productivity by forcing the talented people to support themseves by means other than by using their real talent.

    --
    Vote for Pedro
    1. Re:copyright != feudalism by SkArcher · · Score: 2, Informative
      Socialism is not much different than feudalism. A small minority (the rulling class or govt.) comtrols all the wealth, and doles out enough for the proletariat to keep them alive.
      I don't know what world you come from, but on my planet, Socialism is a community supporting essential services (health care, public parks, transportation) by taxation. What you describe is Total state ownership, which is a society that is basically a C+C game from the central command. And Feudalism is again different, as it relies on a small competing group (the aristocrats) negotiating amongst themselves for power.

      All of that is very simplified, but it does explain where you are wrong.
      --

      An infinite number of monkeys will eventually come up with the complete works of /.
    2. Re:copyright != feudalism by Jonathan · · Score: 1

      It was the merchants and craftmans that formed the middle class which helped destroy feudalism, a system in which land was owned arbitrariyl by aristocrats, who forced peasants to till the land and took most of the profits, distributing a small amount to the peasants to keep them alive

      Look up the "iron law of wages". In the 19th century, it was considered a *good* thing that capitalists only paid their workers starvation wages -- the silly workers would just waste any excess anyway. No wonder socialist ideas were attractive to workers.

      Socialism is not much different than feudalism. A small minority (the rulling class or govt.) comtrols all the wealth, and doles out enough for the proletariat to keep them alive

      That's pretty much a troll. While it was clear that the socialist nations during the Cold War didn't have as good quality of life as the first world nations, people there lived much better than in most capitalist third-world nations.

    3. Re:copyright != feudalism by molafson · · Score: 1
      Socialism is not much different than feudalism. A small minority (the rulling class or govt.) comtrols all the wealth, and doles out enough for the proletariat to keep them alive.

      You've got it all backwards, buddy. In a purely socialist society, the proletariat becomes the ruling class, hence the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat." Of course, once private property is abolished and industries are nationalized, class divisions evaporate altogether -- such that the initial dictatorship of the proletariat becomes unnecessary. That's the theory, anyway.

    4. Re:copyright != feudalism by Peyna · · Score: 1

      Abolition of private property doesn't mean that people will automatically ignore the right that they believe they have to acquire it.

      --
      What?
    5. Re:copyright != feudalism by molafson · · Score: 1

      Oh, and you can read about it all in this piece by Engels, if you want.

    6. Re:copyright != feudalism by incom · · Score: 1

      Abolishing copyright isn't socialism by any means, it is more anarchist or libertarian than anything. Copyright requires government enforcement. That socialism may not favor copyright is coincidental and irrelevant, and it would be more accurate to say that capitalism does favor it, and most other situations do not.

      --
      True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
    7. Re:copyright != feudalism by Eamon+C · · Score: 1
      A small minority (the rulling class or govt.) comtrols all the wealth, and doles out enough for the proletariat to keep them alive.

      Yeah, I'm worried about where the U.S. is heading too. Wait, what were we talking about again?

    8. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Socialism...A small minority (the rulling class or govt.) comtrols all the wealth, and doles out enough for the proletariat to keep them alive. Albolishing copyright is socialism

      The system being proposed would remove the RIAA, a small minority controlling the wealth in the music industry, and replace it with a system where the proletariat controls the distribution of wealth to musicians. Artists under this system are able to support themselves by their art, better than they do today under the RIAA's feudal system. The government exercises no control, it simply keeps the books. These are new ideas, not to be found in the history you have expounded. Please read the paper and open your mind.

    9. Re:copyright != feudalism by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1
      Albolishing copyright is socialism, a concept where the public automatically owns the work of an author.

      The public does automatically own the work of an author as soon as he discloses it. Check the Constitution. It clearly states that the public licenses the work exclusively to the author for a limited time. It also states the reason for this: to promote the production of useful arts and sciences. It does not say that the author owns copies of the work, nor that the goal of establishing copyright was create a new type of personal property. (If it were an item subject to natural property rights, then the expiration of a copyright would be an unethical confiscation of personal property. It isn't.)

      Note that in all cases, a content creator has an easy way to retain to retain complete control of his works: he can simply keep it secret. If he doesn't keep it secret, the cat is out of the bag and the knowledge belongs to the public. Too many people these days assume that "temporary exclusive license from the public" == "my personal property", and anything else must == communism.

    10. Re:copyright != feudalism by Geno+Z+Heinlein · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Copyright didn't originate with feudalism, but as an attack on feudalism.

      The attack failed. Copyright only helps the artists if they never sign a contract. If artists never sign, the artists keep the money, and the labels, professional middlemen, get nothing. Unfortunately, the labels now hold the copyrights (by contract), and artists receive only a tiny percentage of the revenues from their work.

      Until recently, though, the best way to promote your music was with a contract. The artist provided talent and the label provided promotion. If artists could find a method of promoting their own material without the labels -- something with low overhead and access to customers all over the planet -- the labels would slowly start to lose their source of income.

      That method is the internet.

      The hookers-and-blow crowd might still prefer going with a major-label contract, but the labels no longer have their de facto monopoly on distribution. That's why the RIAA and others are desperately trying to portray all downloading as a criminal act. They're engaging in a campaign of psychology to create an unthinking aversion to non-label distribution -- not copyright violation, that's just an angle.

      The oft-referenced Courtney Love does the math is recommended reading.

    11. Re:copyright != feudalism by swillden · · Score: 1

      Copyright didn't originate with feudalism, but as an attack on feudalism.

      Actually, copyright originated as a means for the Queen of England to censor publications she didn't like.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    12. Re:copyright != feudalism by smiff · · Score: 1
      Albolishing copyright is socialism, a concept where the public automatically owns the work of an author.

      Capitalism is all about the free market. Copyright is a regulation of the market. Those who would have the government grant monopolies are anti-capitalist. The fact is, copyright doesn't fall under any of the three big economic ideologies (Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism). You could just as easily say:

      Abolishing copyright is capitalism, a concept where people are free to compete by manufacturing any product they want.
    13. Re:copyright != feudalism by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      While it was clear that the socialist nations during the Cold War didn't have as good quality of life as the first world nations, people there lived much better than in most capitalist third-world nations.

      Indeed. Under socialism, most people are sentenced to live in a permanent lower-middle-class existence. There's no economic reward for striving to do better, so they just exist.

      However, some people won't settle for living a small petty life in a dusty suburb or housing project. They'd be boxed in or, worse, isolated and ostracized under a socialist regime.

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    14. Re:copyright != feudalism by geekee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In the world I live, socialism is slowly creeping over the US and Eurpoe. They haven't learned a thing from the USSR collapse. The only services regulated in the US currently, involve some scarce resource, such as wiring infrastructure for power and phone, roads, airwaves, etc. It's not difficult to show that govt. involvement has caused as many problems as solutions in these areas. Nationalizing health care and regulating drug prices are a big mistake. Regulating drug prices will kill incentive to invest in drug companies. Regulating health care will kill incentive to become a doctor. who the hell wants to spend all that time in school to end up a govt. employee. There's no reason my tax dollar should pay to support authors, particularly those I dislike. Let free market decide, not the govt. That's the principle that the US was founded on. People claim the love the US, but they constantly try to change it from what was intended, think they know better than the founding fathers. If authors want to give up their copyright to some foundation that hands them a bone, fine. But that foundation better not use my tax dollars.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    15. Re:copyright != feudalism by geekee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Look up the "iron law of wages". In the 19th century, it was considered a *good* thing that capitalists only paid their workers starvation wages -- the silly workers would just waste any excess anyway. No wonder socialist ideas were attractive to workers."

      Labor unions solved that problem. Socialism in the USSR did not, as history shows.

      "While it was clear that the socialist nations during the Cold War didn't have as good quality of life as the first world nations, people there lived much better than in most capitalist third-world nations."

      Name a 3rd world country that has a free market system. There aren't any. The governments are corrupt and don't allow free market to flourish. Mexico is practically socialist for instance, and Iraq was no better under Hussein. You need to understand fundamentals. People only work productively when they profit directly from their labor in some way or another. Socialism and govt. corruption destroys this by stealing the product of labor and distributing to people underserving of the product.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    16. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well except for the millions and millions murdered ,tortured, and starved to death by their Government.

    17. Re:copyright != feudalism by geekee · · Score: 1

      "n a purely socialist society, the proletariat becomes the ruling class, hence the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat."

      A purely socialist society is unrealizable. People act in their own interest. Someone must decide how to distribute wealth. That class of people will inevitably favor themselves. This leads to a system where it is more important to get in those peoples good favor, to be able to pursue a profession, rather than to actually have talent in that field, as free market favors. Just look at the USSR as a classic example of what really happens when socialism is put into practice.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    18. Re:copyright != feudalism by geekee · · Score: 1

      No true libertarian would talk about abolishing copyright. They believe that the purpose of govt. is to protect individual freedom. One of these freedom is the ability to own property, including intellectual property. It is no cooincidence socialists don't believe in property. They don't believe in individual rights, only collective rights. This proposed system wants my tax dollars to pay authors and musician I don't necessarily care about or may even want boycotted. That's a socialist system.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    19. Re:copyright != feudalism by geekee · · Score: 1

      The RIAA is a lobby group. Recording labels sign musicians they think people will like. People either buy their album or they don't. That's capitalism, not feudalism. No one points a gun at a musician and forces him to sign a recording contract. No one prevents a musician from starting his own label if he can't find a contract he likes. Under the proposed system, my tax dollars pay for musicians that other citizens who may pay no taxes vote for. No one has the right to steal my money and give it to a musician I don't like. The govt. is pointing a gun at me and forcing me to pay taxes, so they have ultimate control. If the proletariat wants free music, they can start their own foundation with their own money, and sign up their own musicians, but don't force me to pay for it.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    20. Re:copyright != feudalism by geekee · · Score: 1

      What do your comments have to do with the proposal? If you think Britney Spears is just scraping by, you've been misled (watch South Park?). The internet may help musicians bypass the normal route to fame, but the RIAA hasn't purposely sued any uploader who was distributing his own music. You're just spinning the facts. The Courtney Love number assume all musicians are successful. They don't account for all the failed musicians that declare bankruptcy and stick the industry with the loss. If it was so easy to be successful in music, any musician could walk into a bank, get a loan, and start his own label.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    21. Re:copyright != feudalism by geekee · · Score: 1

      "Capitalism is all about the free market. Copyright is a regulation of the market. Those who would have the government grant monopolies are anti-capitalist. The fact is, copyright doesn't fall under any of the three big economic ideologies (Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism). You could just as easily say: Abolishing copyright is capitalism, a concept where people are free to compete by manufacturing any product they want."

      Wrong. Abolishing copyright is like allowing shoplifting. Would you say breaking into a store and stealing a book is capitalist? No it's theft of property. Copyright violations are also theft of property. The govt. is simply protecting a basic property right. You'd think digital copying would highlight the real work is in the creation, not the distribution. But instead, it's done the opposite. People think that because it's easy to copy, the creator won't care if you make a copy without compensating him.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    22. Re:copyright != feudalism by Jonathan · · Score: 1

      Labor unions solved that problem. Socialism in the USSR did not, as history shows.

      Oh, I agree that the various patches to rampant free-market capitalism were more successful than the Soviet experiment.

      Name a 3rd world country that has a free market system. There aren't any

      Well, Chile under the murderous and corrupt dictator Pinochet was well regarded for its economic freedom, although certainly not for any other form of freedom.

    23. Re:copyright != feudalism by spitzak · · Score: 1

      You are confusing Capitalism with Anarchy. They are different.

    24. Re:copyright != feudalism by molafson · · Score: 1
      Someone must decide how to distribute wealth. That class of people will inevitably favor themselves.

      During the time of Marx and Engels' writing, the proletariat class was by far the largest. The theory was that by becoming conscious of itself (as a class), the proletariat would become aware that it could seize power (owing to its greater numbers and especially its labor power).

      So, the proletariat would seize power. In so doing, it would be a class acting in its own self-interest. There is no contradiction here between socialism and the majority pursuing its own self-interest (to wrest control from the elite class). And as I said, once private property is abolished, social class effectively disappears, so that no one class exists to exploit another.

      As for the USSR -- I have not studied the modern history of socialism. But I suspect the failure the USSR can mostly be blamed on Stalin turning the country into a totalitarian terror state before pure communism had had a chance to take root.

    25. Re:copyright != feudalism by Geno+Z+Heinlein · · Score: 1

      ... but the RIAA hasn't purposely sued any uploader who was distributing his own music.

      Their press releases don't point out the facts. Musicians are uploading their own music, you're allowed (even under current copyright law) to duplicate your CDs for backup purposes, and you're allowed to burn tracks to your hard drive for your own personal use. The RIAA never mentions these exceptions. They make blanket propaganda statements, including the use of terms like "piracy". Unless you're getting MP3s with a cutlass and an eyepatch, it's not piracy. The RIAA prefers "piracy" to "copyright violation" because one sounds violent and the other sounds like lawyers are involved, and they figure they can sway more people with an emotional appeal than a legal one.

      They don't account for all the failed musicians that declare bankruptcy and stick the industry with the loss.

      A lot of those musicians (for instance, Toni Braxton) were extremely successful in terms of sales and had to declare bankruptcy due to the prejudicial terms of their contracts. These contracts would never be held up in court if they were between two individuals. Only the undue influence of the RIAA has allowed these contracts to stand.

      Unsuccessful musicians fall into two cases. Some would have been successful if they were marketing over the internet and pocketing some actual cash instead of paying huge percentages and fees to their labels. Others would still have been unsuccessful, but would have spent less money failing. In either case, the industry wouldn't be stuck with the loss; they would never have been involved in the first place.

    26. Re:copyright != feudalism by incom · · Score: 1

      I never said I agreed with the proposed system with it's stupid "art tax" or whatever. But imho part of being libertarian is being against excessive government intervention, and intellectual property protection is an excess to me, though it may not be to you. How many of my tax dollars could be saved without the RIAA tying up the courts etc.

      --
      True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
    27. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the world I live, socialism is slowly creeping over the US and Eurpoe.

      Your world must be a pretty fsked-up place.

      See, in everybody else's world, most (all?) of Europe has been socialist for longer than you've been alive.

      They haven't learned a thing from the USSR collapse.

      And evidently, neither have you. You might want to start by learning the meaning of the word, before you use it in conversation - you'll look a hell of a lot less stupid.

    28. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Under socialism, most people are sentenced to live in a permanent lower-middle-class existence. There's no economic reward for striving to do better, so they just exist.

      I'm sorry, but WHAT!?!?!?

      Learn the meaning of the word before you use it in a sentence like that.

      Perhaps you meant communism.

    29. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People only work productively when they profit directly from their labor in some way or another.

      Care to explain exactly what this has to do with socialism (which is, after all, the topic at hand.)

      Socialism and govt. corruption destroys this by stealing the product of labor and distributing to people underserving of the product.

      Nope. Government corruption might, but socialism certainly doesn't. I have to quote Princess Bride here - "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

    30. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Abolishing copyright is like allowing shoplifting.

      How, exactly?

      Would you say breaking into a store and stealing a book is capitalist?

      No, would you?

      Copyright violations are also theft of property.

      NO, THEY ARE NOT. Copyright is not property. Theft is taking something that belongs to someone else. Copying something CANNOT in ANY way, shape, or form - be construed as taking something from it's owner, it is not theft.

      The govt. is simply protecting a basic property right.

      You're just so fucking stupid it's unbelievable.

      How are you not yet extinct?

    31. Re:copyright != feudalism by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I mean any economic system where if you earn more than average, 70-90% of it is taxed away to give to other people.

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    32. Re:copyright != feudalism by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "The hookers-and-blow crowd might still prefer going with a major-label contract, but the labels no longer have their de facto monopoly on distribution."

      Distribution of physical CDs to stores is just one part of the services that a record label offers an artist. The record label typically finances the production and and promotion, as well -- these things can be hugely costly. The labels recoup this investment by selling recordings.

      "That's why the RIAA and others are desperately trying to portray all downloading as a criminal act."

      I see this mentioned fairly often on slashdot, but I have yet to see a link to evidence that backs this up. Do you have a citation for this? I'd really be surprised, as iTMS is doing gangbuster business and the record companies must be thrilled that it's taking off. A sale is a sale.

      "They're engaging in a campaign of psychology to create an unthinking aversion to non-label distribution"

      Wow, that sounds pretty bad, if it's true! Do you have a citation for this, as well?

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    33. Re:copyright != feudalism by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "Unless you're getting MP3s with a cutlass and an eyepatch, it's not piracy."

      If you're getting them against the wishes of the copyright holder, it's piracy. Here's the dictionary definition. That's the accepted term, whether it's software, music, or any other copyrighted material. Let's not fool ourselves. Pirating $1,000.00 worth of music is just as illegal as pirating $1,000.00 worth of software or any other copyrighted material. Musicians are not second-class citizens; this is no "some copyright holders are more equal than others" situation.

      You make some good arguments but pretending that music piracy isn't really piracy won't help anybody's cause.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    34. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That definition is a relatively new one that has been created by copyright holders to be deliberately prejudicial towards anyone comitting copyright infringement.

      ANY use of the word "piracy" with reference to copyright infringement is propaganda, pure and simple.

      That it's reached the point it's in the dictionary should be an indicator just how powerful the pro-Copyright lobby is.

    35. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Copyright violations are also theft of property."

      No.

      Theft requires that something is taken such that the legal owner is deprived of the item.

      This is patently not true in cases of copyright violation, since the original is not deprivied of the material.

      Thus, it is not theft.

      Perhaps if copyright terms were reasonable, I'd find copyright violation to be far more unacceptable than I do right now. But as it is, the pro-copyright-holders lobbies are excessively influential and have taken a system that was reasonable and distorted it to the point it's almost unrecognisable.

      If anything, the ease of copying and distribution of the digital age are reasons copyright terms should be *shorter*, not longer.

    36. Re:copyright != feudalism by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      AC says:
      That definition is a relatively new one

      True, as long as you accept that 100 years is "relatively new". "Piracy" as copying documents came about at the end of the 1800s, and was used by British publishers to complain about US companies that reproduced their work without payment (since copyrights had no international validity, this was legal). That usage has exponentially gained acceptance sense then.

      However, by legal definitions, piracy still means precisely "a violent crime committed on or near the ocean". No judge will call someone a "pirate" for anything less.

      In the 1700s and earlier, piracy had occasionally applied to some "intellectual property infringements", in the sense that one of the most valuable things that could be copyrighted was a book of navigational charts, which real pirates were fond of grabbing.

    37. Re:copyright != feudalism by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Feudalism is a concentration of capital in the hands of a single group that hierarchically leases it to those who need it. (If US anti-trust law was magically abolished, the next successful mega-monopoly would automatically become the equivalent of a feudal state.)

      Feudal lords didn't point a sword at your head and tell you to work- they merely owned 98% of all arable land (Churches had the rest). Peasants could either farm it according to the owner's rules, or be chased off his property (and onto someone else's)

      Any system where one group has a virtual stranglehold on the means to success in an industry is an approximation of feudalism. And it does seem that the RIAA controls about 98% of record labels.

    38. Re:copyright != feudalism by shark72 · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. The definition's been around since before you or I were born.

      Back when I was young, Apple software pirates used the term with pride. I'm talking the Apple ][, not the Mac (ask your parents). They adopted names like "Jolly Roger" and, on the whole, warmly embraced the term.

      It's just a word. Don't be afraid of it.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    39. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention controlling Clear Channel and MTV.

    40. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The record label typically finances the production and and promotion, as well -- these things can be hugely costly.

      And we don't need the labels for those, either. A musician starting out can make a pretty good recording with a low budget. A musician with a strong fan base can get the fans to front the money for a topnotch recording, as Marillion did quite successfully (their fans put up a $300K advance, paid directly to a trust account, no labels involved).

      As for promotion, why should I pay for the industry to market to me? Word of mouth is all I need to find music I like, and lots of musicians are served quite well by that system. I'm not interested in paying more just so a corporation can shove its latest incarnation of Britney Spears down my throat.

    41. Re:copyright != feudalism by Geno+Z+Heinlein · · Score: 1

      Do you have a citation for this?

      Why do I need one? Has the RIAA stated in its press releases that there is legitimate downloading going on? No. Does the RIAA say that you are allowed to copy your CDs for backup? No. Does the RIAA mention that you are allowed to burn tracks to your hard drive? No.

      Are you saying they are mentioning these things?

      Do you have a citation for this, as well?

      Once again, why do I need one? Is the use of the word "piracy" in question? What about the use of the word "theft"?

      Piracy is not actually happening. Theft is not actually happening. Piracy is a violent act, not copying something. Theft is taking something, not copying something. Making a copy of an mp3 doesn't destroy or remove the original, so it's not theft. The people downloading have no physical contact with the RIAA members, so it's not a violent act.

      The RIAA, to protect a dying monopoly, has engaged in pure manipulation of facts and emotions. The proof is their use of words like "piracy" and "theft".

      Is the language of the RIAA the language of your friends and neighbors? Is their language of the RIAA the way people actually talk and think about downloading? Does the position of the RIAA on downloading touch -- even remotely -- the point of view of the millions of people who download? No. The RIAA's language is their propaganda about why control of music distribution needs to remain strictly with them.

      The RIAA indicts themselves on this issue. The evidence that the RIAA is distorting the facts comes straight from the RIAA. Do you really need a citation? Here you go: Recording Industry Association of America.

    42. Re:copyright != feudalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I don't know if you would consider Thomas Jefferson a libertarian, but he disagreed with you that "intellectual property" is a natural property right...look up his famous quote "He who receives an idea from me receives [it] without lessening [me], as he who lights his [candle] at mine receives light without darkening me."

      If it's not a natural property right, it's public policy. It's a monopoly enforced by government at the point of a gun, for the collective purpose of enriching the public domain. A true libertarian would disavow all "intellectual property" and leave it to the marketplace to come up with ways of funding new art. There have been a number of funding experiments not involving the threat of enforcement by government, and they have been quite successful.

      If you think IP is a natural property right, then it should never expire, any more than your ownership of your house expires. We should still be paying license fees to the descendants of Ben Franklin for bifocal glasses...except Franklin refused to patent his inventions, saying "As we enjoy great Advantages from the Inventions of others we should be glad of an Opportunity to serve others by any Invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." (link)

    43. Re:copyright != feudalism by Dave2+Wickham · · Score: 1

      Why does everyone seem to think that it is a given that any national healthcare system will be granted a monopoly? I really just don't get it, it's perfectly possible with a national health care service to still have the private sector...

    44. Re:copyright != feudalism by shark72 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, didn't think so. The RIAA is going after people who download copyrighted material for which their members own the copyright. Except when mistakes happen (the "usher" file name brouhaha), they're not after people who trade music for which the copyright holder has given permission; they have no right to and no need to. Nor have they stated that this is wrong.

      "Piracy" is in the dictionary as synonymous with copyright violation. You're tilting at windmills on that one at best, and if you're actually implying that software piracy is piracy but music piracy isn't, you're giving the impression that you believe copyright holders have a different value in society depending on whether they choose to write code or compose music.

      "The RIAA, to protect a dying monopoly, has engaged in pure manipulation of facts and emotions."

      Remember, the RIAA is a trade organization that represents members of the recording industry. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of record labels, so the industry has no more of a monopoly than the auto industry has a monopoly on making cars. Anybody with the means and the talent can start a record company. Whether your new record company presses hard CDs or distributes music online, and whether or not you choose to join the RIAA is up to you, either way, you're now a part of the recording industry.

      Perhaps what you meant to say is that a copyright holder has a monopoly on how their work is distributed. If so, you are absolutely correct. This is what copyright means, in a nutshell. If you write a book or a poem or a play or a fugue or a command-line utility, you hold the copyright and only you get to decide how it is distributed. As it should be.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    45. Re:copyright != feudalism by Geno+Z+Heinlein · · Score: 1

      ... if you're actually implying that software piracy is piracy but music piracy isn't...

      Hanh? You've got me confused with someone else. Whose post did you mean to reply to?

      I never said anything about software "piracy", and if I had said anything on the topic, it would have been to point out that there is no such thing as "software piracy". The term "software piracy" is just more psychological warfare.

      Said warfare has apparently worked on some people. Between your login, your belief in dictionary definitions and your defense of the current legal system, I'm starting to wonder if you're actually a law student.

  24. What about grade-school kids? by deanj · · Score: 1

    Why not spend the money on the grade-school kids that need an education? The money would be far more useful there.

  25. Stupid Overly Complex System by cronian · · Score: 1

    How about I want the money myself? I don't really like it. Why can't people just be expected to donate on their own accord. If no one wants to donate to the artist then too bad. What is soo dificult about this?

  26. Creative entitlements? Lets just buy them off. by rs6krox · · Score: 1

    I have mixed feelings on this. It's interesting, though. The government actually saves money, cause it costs more than to 20B now to issue and enforce copyrights and all the overhead that goes along with it. But, I have a hard time supporting another "entitlement".

    Also, $100 per person isn't enough. What you'll get, IMHO, is simular to today's "free" music scene. The little guys get more exposure, but they're drowned in a sea of content. Just finding the good stuff can be difficult. The entertainment industry currently employs a heck of a lot more than 500,000 people, most of them making a lot more than $40k a year, so anybody that's ever been in anything won't go for it.

    The current system COULD work, unfortunately the "Mischiefs of Faction" have induced our government into perverting the original intent and plan of copyrights.

    What I'd like to see is a way for individuals to give money via paypal to whatever cause they want, and the money goes directly into buying off politicians. Really, the amount of money some of these companies pay political campains to curry favor is pittiful if spread across a large group. It's about time our government came clean, usually the biggest wallet get's their way, let the people put their money where their poll numbers are. SCO and M$ would be toast just based on the donations from the /. crowd.

  27. "virtual tip jars" with a catch... by extrarice · · Score: 1

    Only things the masses like or know about would get funding. That leavs a lot of people out in the cold. If we paint this in terms of music, only the mass-consumed features would get funding, and the independent, lesser-known things would not get enough funding to continue, regardless of quality. Once again, mass-consumer-appeal (boy-band-of-the-week, etc) would take precedent over real talent.
    Basically, I just don't see this solving any problems.

    --
    "Jesus saves, but everyone else in a 10 foot radius takes full damage from the fireball."
  28. How about my system? by bussdriver · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't use special vouchers; just these little green paper things.

    Problem with my system is the green paper things I give never get to my artists although that is my intent...

  29. India-Boom, or bust? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "That said, I love this idea. Do actors and musicians really need millions to live on? No. $40,000 a year should be enough for most of them. Live with one car! One house! Don't buy $1,000 suits! Live like a normal American! You don't NEED to be rich to have a good life!"

    So when are musician and actors jobs going to be outsourced like those "Made too much" tech dot-boomers?

  30. This is a silly idea by fname · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This idea is a silly, feel-good proposal that will not compensate artists in a reasonable way. Instead, people will assign their voucher to a friend, whether or not they'd ever pay for any of their music. Cash is a very effective way to compensate artists, and consumers choosing to use their own cash (not some free voucher that every taxpayer will subsidize) is the best way to allocate these scarce dollars.

    Music consumers like these "compulsary licensing" schemes because it means that non-music listening people will be forced to subsidize their favorite things. Seems like a good idea. Let's require poor kids to pay $10 a year so the rich kid driving his dad's Ferrari doesn't have to spend an extra $100 a year on his music.

    It's nothing more than a naked political grab, and the EFF is losing mainstream support because of their regressive stance.

    1. Re:This is a silly idea by Hobbex · · Score: 1

      This idea is a silly, feel-good proposal that will not compensate artists in a reasonable way. Instead, people will assign their voucher to a friend, whether or not they'd ever pay for any of their music. Cash is a very effective way to compensate artists, and consumers choosing to use their own cash (not some free voucher that every taxpayer will subsidize) is the best way to allocate these scarce dollars.

      Copyright makes more economic sense then any of these other proposals. Probably, copyright is ultimately more fair to all parties involved then any of these other proposals. Copyright is also probably more effective at stimulating creativity then any of these other proposals. I can agree with these things.

      But, copyright is fundamentally at odds with the information society. The idea that people should be able to control when copies are made and transfered of certain information is an essential contradiction to having free communication in the age of high speed computers. The only sustainable information society that can support copyright is an information police-state. That is why we have Palladium and TCPA, that is why we have multi-million dollar suits against thousands of Internet users, and that is why it is only going to get worse.

      I am a libertarian: the idea compulsary anything turns my stomach. The idea of supporting artists through taxation systems like the one proposed is contradictory to my position in every other issue. But loath it as I may: I would rather have these things than an Internet ransacked by the tyranny and insanity of attempting to treat bits and bytes as if they were physical things.

      Just about anything is better than copyright.

    2. Re:This is a silly idea by serutan · · Score: 1

      Did you actually read the article, or just see the word "voucher" and start typing?

      First, there is nothing compulsory about this scheme. It's clearly stated that an artist would get to choose whether to use copyright protection or the voucher system.

      Second, under this scheme any artist who receives voucher payments becomes ineligible for copyright protection for 5 years. Seems like a big commitment for a musician simply to get a few hundred dollars in vouchers from friends.

      The thing I don't like about this scheme is that it really doesn't address any of the problems it brings up about copyright. The copyright system would still coexist, and we would still have DRM mania and the RIAA wanting to strip search everybody. But on its own I think it is a pretty well thought out idea, at least better thought out than some of the criticisms here from people who don't appear to have bothered to read the article.

    3. Re:This is a silly idea by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      I donated a tiny amount of money to the EFF using PayPal last week.

      I did it hoping that their overhead cost for accepting and acknowledging the donation would exceed the amount I gave.

      Next, I am going to see if they accept an even smaller amount through PayPal.

      I encourage others who find the EFF annoying to do the same.

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    4. Re:This is a silly idea by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 1

      Instead, people will assign their voucher to a friend, whether or not they'd ever pay for any of their music

      So we get free cash from our buddies and free music? Why are you against this?

      --
      "I only speak the truth"
      Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
    5. Re:This is a silly idea by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      It's nothing more than a naked political grab, and the EFF is losing mainstream support because of their regressive stance.

      Having just read the article, I must ask what the EFF (Electronic Freedom Foundation) has to do with anything?

      The paper is from CEPR, and the word "Freedom" in its title is a generic reference to principle, not an allusion to a separate political organization. Compulsory license is related to what CEPR just proposed, and it is something that EFF discusses (but does not directly endorse) on their website.

    6. Re:This is a silly idea by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Seems like a big commitment for a musician simply to get a few hundred dollars in vouchers from friends.

      Not if he isn't seriously a musician at all. Maybe he's an unskilled hobbyist, or even a freeloader who picked an untuned guitar from the sidewalk. Whatever. He can declare himself "an artist willing to accept vouchers" and then setup a storefront, taking a voucher from anybody who walks in and redeeming it for cash value (minus his 20% "processing fee").

  31. Forced donation by giblfiz · · Score: 1

    As I understand this, it is basicly a proposal to do away with copyrights, and in turn force donations from the people to artists. The donations would be collected via tax, but there destination would be determined by the population on an even basis.

    While this on the surface looks like a great idea, it strikes me as one of the sorts of Ideas which has a huge collection of hidden negitive repercussions. One which comes readily to mind is that for large projects the star or lead would get most or all of the money regardless of how much work, say, the lighting guy put into it.

    It is also worth pointing out that there is a great deal of cultural interia which would fight this. Media producers would work against it (put them out of bussness) republicans would work against it (government supported art). Its a nice thought exsparement though.

  32. Government's role? by Stile+65 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Hate to say it, but is it really the government's role to promote the arts?

    I'd rather see the government relax its regulation of various forms of communication. Deregulate LPFM, for example, and let small hobbyists operate LPFM stations that give play to local artists. This would help to break the monopoly of "Big Media," which IMO has a stranglehold on what we listen to mostly because of the scarcity of legal broadcast media.

    At the same time, this would allow "open-source" music to thrive. You could just donate the money directly to artists in appreciation of their music. It (kinda) works for NPR. Under the current tax scheme (scam? hehe) artists could even unite under not-for-profit umbrella organizations that would pay them to produce music and accept tax-deductible donations to help pay the artists.

    --
    I claim first use of "Error No. 0B" - or "No. 0B error." It'll be the new ID 10T!
    1. Re:Government's role? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, I don't want my tax dollars going to support authors I disagree with. The last thing I want is Micael Moore and Al Franken getting tax payer dollars to produce their crap.

    2. Re:Government's role? by Stile+65 · · Score: 1

      I'd personally extend this to any politically-motivated "work of art." This is also why I'm highly opposed to publicly-funded elections. The parties that get federal funds are generally the two ruling parties.

      --
      I claim first use of "Error No. 0B" - or "No. 0B error." It'll be the new ID 10T!
    3. Re:Government's role? by danila · · Score: 1

      Hate to say it, but is it really the government's role to promote the arts?
      Well, may be not government's, but surely it is one of the state's roles. Remember why patents and copyrights exist - to promote the progress of useful arts (and science). The whole institution of copyright was created to do exactly that. If we find out it doesn't work all that well, it's a good idea to replace copyright with something that works better.

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
  33. Artists still stuck in poverty? by G4from128k · · Score: 1

    What happens if an artist signs up for AFV, but gets only $1000. They are screwed because in signing up for AFV, they had to sign over the copyright to their works for 5 years. Without copyright, no traditional publisher will sign them.

    So any artist who enters the AFV program better have a good marketing budget to ensure that they get their promised $40,000. Maybe they can get marketing help by signing over some of their AFV money to a publicist. Maybe they need to promise the first $20,000 to the marketing person, and a fat percentage of any AFV money above that $20,000. Maybe this look just like a traditional publishing deal.

    Whoops! We're back where we started. The artist is poor and the people so sell art to the public are rich.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  34. Re:Not an alternative to the NEA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If you like random crap then I agree that you should be entitled to pay for it. It's forcing the rest of us to pay for it that I find objectionable.

  35. O.S.S. is art. by giblfiz · · Score: 1

    Under this modle it would be quite possible to support your favorite peice of O.S.S. via voucher. Every little bit of cash helps, particularly for small projects.

  36. I'd give my voucher. by stephanruby · · Score: 1

    I'd give my voucher to the Disney Corporation. They've been ripped off on Mickey Mouse one to many times.

  37. Wouldn't this become a commodity? by Sebby · · Score: 1
    I like the idea, but I can see it being used as a commodity where these are 'bought' so that they can be claimed to specific people...

    --

    AC comments get piped to /dev/null
  38. How about my system?-Postman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Problem with my system is the green paper things I give never get to my artists although that is my intent..."

    [Taps on shoulder]

    Addressed envelope with "green paper" enclosed mailed to favourite artist. If it doesn't get there, then, your country has collapsed.

  39. Unlikely to work, no one will do it. by MyNameIsFred · · Score: 2, Insightful
    If I did my math right, the author assumes that 200 million people in the US will use their vouchers -- that gives the 500,000 artists at 40 Grand a year. Does he honestly expect the vast majority of Americans to use their voucher? I think it is safer to assume maybe a few percent of the population will use it.

    People who already follow the arts, are donating money to causes such as symphonies, local plays, etc. People who are less interested -- those that just turn on the radio and listen to whatever is played are not going to be bothered with finding an person or group to support.

    In my view, this is an idea that will never work.

  40. Vouchers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they are happy to download the music to see if it belongs to them, consider the mistake if it did not.
    If someone has a name similar to that of their artist (or not), records some copyright material to mp3 and then puts it on the network. The condition is it is free for anyone to download, except the major record labels, their employees, agents, contractors or affiliates. By virtue of their copyright laws, they are not allowed to download it (aka steal it) and are subject to $1500 or $150,000 fine if they do.

    All we need to do then is monitor the downloads of this mp3, and then sue the RIAA when they download it. If there is more than 216 of us doing this, then we can easily outweigh their laws and settle this similar to how the large companies settle patent lawsuits, you lower your weapons and we lower ours.

  41. ^MOD PARENT UP Re:I see on major weakness. by BigRedFish · · Score: 1

    people would tend to elect for their money to go to [favorites] rather than going to all of the people they listen to.

    BING BING BING! Do this, and it's entirely possible to make money purely by advertising an 'artist' who never produces any work and may not even exist, and by pure name-recognition gaining the royalties that would be paid to other artists who did produce work that consumers are enjoying. This scheme sounds like a great way to make Milli Vanilli clones rule the music world. It manages to take the blank-media tax idea and make it worse. As an artist, I just see people listening to my tunes, and then giving the voucher to whoever had the fanciest commercial on MTV.

    I have a better idea though, as long as we're using government and texes to redistribute wealth to be spent on services, how about this: We all pay in to a pool with our taxes, and then, if we get sick or injured and need to go to the hospital, we can get the service and the hospital expenses can get paid out of the pool. Why don't we do THAT first, then worry about freaking pop-music records?

    1. Re:^MOD PARENT UP Re:I see on major weakness. by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      As an artist, I just see people listening to my tunes, and then giving the voucher to whoever had the fanciest commercial on MTV.

      If that was the case, you probably wouldn't be part of the program (you wouldn't sign up). And I guess the system would be reduced to the present system (where a few artists get a lot while many don't).

      I have a better idea though, as long as we're using government and texes to redistribute wealth to be spent on services, how about this: We all pay in to a pool with our taxes, and then, if we get sick or injured and need to go to the hospital, we can get the service and the hospital expenses can get paid out of the pool. Why don't we do THAT first, then worry about freaking pop-music records?

      Socialist ideals are enemies of capitalism. Since USA is capitalist, don't expect such a thing being passed any time soon. The only time USA ever implemented anything socialist was right after independence (Bill of Rights), and during the Great Depression (New Deal).

      In any case, people are proposing ideas for art because of the "MP3 revolution" and the battle with piracy and freedom. In other words, more reseach is being done with respect to music, MP3s, etc.

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
  42. Already have this, it called MONEY. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have plenty of them. Start sending them to the creator if you're so interested in supporting them.

  43. Unnecessary Crap by Jason+Earl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You can already give money to the artist of your choice. Just send him or her a check, purchase an album, or, better yet, go to a concert. There is no need to get the government more involved than it already is.

    If you want to make a political gesture while supporting this artist make sure that you pay the thousands of artists that already offer their material in unencrypted formats. It really is as simple as that. If you don't like the media companies, buy from artists that aren't part of the media conglomerates. There are thousands of artists to choose from.

    Artistic vouchers would be the worst possible solution. If you think that the credit card companies take a bite out of transactions they are involved with then you never have dealt with the government. The taxpayer would almost certainly end up paying at least $20 for a $10 voucher, and the record companies would still get all of the money because they still control the most sure method of getting the publicity that is necessary to make it big. The only difference would be that the RIAA companies would get paid in "vouchers," which, with our luck, would probably be tax-free money.

    Not to mention the fact that you are volunteering my money, which I don't feel like spending on your "art."

    Further government intervention in this arena would be the worst thing that could possibly happen. Anyone that thinks that this is a good idea needs to take a history class, at the very least, and a remedial economics class would probably be a good idea as well.

    1. Re:Unnecessary Crap by BroncoInCalifornia · · Score: 1

      First RTFA.

      This is an attempt to adress the fact that copyright law is not working out that well in age of Internet, hard drives and CD burners. This is an attempt to come up with a solution that does not require subjecting 12 year olds to million dollar law suits.

      Second.
      Copyright law is major government intervention in the free market! The government says who can and can not make and distribute certain things. If one thinks government intervention in the free market is bad, then one must be suspicious of copyright law.

      I think government intervention in the free market is needed sometimes and I think copyrigth law ( In moderation) is a good thing.

      Third.
      This attempts to come up with a parallel system to our present copyright law. It does not do away with it.

      Fourth.
      There is no way this kind of thing will happen. The suits in Hollywood who get almost all the bucks from CD purchases, iTunes downloads etc. will never let this happen. They will pay the best congress money can buy to make sure it does not happen.

      --------------
      If we want a sensible solution to the copyright problem we first have to do something about the suits in Hollywood. We have to cut off their "air supply". Then they have no money to buy congress. We have to stop buying RIAA music. Buy from unsigned artist. This takes more work but it is guilt free music.

      --

      Religion is the main cause of atheism.

    2. Re:Unnecessary Crap by Jason+Earl · · Score: 1

      Actually, I would bet that the music industry would love these vouchers. It would be far more profitable to simply skim a percentage off the top of all taxpayers than to wheedle CD purchases out of teenagers (far and away their largest market). There would be two major advantages to such a scheme. The first advantage is that they would no longer have to worry about protecting copyrights, as they would get paid either way. The second advantage is that they would be freed even more from the burden of finding "good" artists, as they would get paid a certain percentage of this voucher money either way. After all, when you control the primary means of distributing and marketing music you win no matter how it works out that artists get paid.

      If you want to break that up, you have to purchase your entertainment from the competition.

  44. State Control of Art = Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this middle step really necessary?

    Why not go a step further and have the government directly fund all arts and creative science?

    All of the programs written by companies like Microsoft were written for greed, and not for the needs of the society. With the state taking control of the funding of IT, IT will take on a greater social meaning than it does in this petty commercialized setting of the corrupt western bourgeoisie.

    OSS can and should rule. The whole problem with this Windows crap is that it is so blatantly American middle class. The lowest common denomenator culture that has yet to scurge the face of the planet.

    This is truly a revolutionary step. Hopefully, more and more left-friendly politicians will realize the need to take software from the control of the corrupt business sector and into the public sector where society will benefit from the software.

    This is a nice forward looking half-step. But it seems that it would be better for the state to simply nationalize IT and publishing industries. When the means of production are owned by the state, then we will create a paradise for programmers and other creative artists. We could get the middle class out of the creative process and put it back into the universities where a higher form of art will evolve...one that is in tune with a higher universal conciousness.

    1. Re:State Control of Art = Good by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "When the means of production are owned by the state, then we will create a paradise for programmers and other creative artists."

      I think the middle step is definately neccesary. The state is grossly inefficient at anything it does. The state funding something is one thing, if they just write a check and walk away (which they never do, they attach 10,000 forms and piles of red tape on anything they touch), but actually controling it? My god no, tech moves slow enough as is without the government at the reigns!

    2. Re:State Control of Art = Good by dreamchaser · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Almost everything that is run by the State is inefficient and wasteful, yet you propose nationalizing IT? Hasn't nationalized medicine in places like Canada and the UK already done enough damage to clue you in?

    3. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Craig+Davison · · Score: 1

      We're doing just fine with our healthcare system, thanks. Do they send out anti-public healthcare propaganda in the US, or something?
      - a Canadian.

    4. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And in fact, the problems with the NHS system in the UK set in when Maggie Thatcher started encouraging the NHS to contract back out to private companies rather than employing people and owning assets directly....

    5. Re:State Control of Art = Good by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      No, I just go by what my (quite numerous) Canadian friends tell me. Those of them who can afford the time and money travel to the States to get their healthcare.

    6. Re:State Control of Art = Good by yintercept · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is funny. The Canadians that can afford it come to the US for the doctors. The US citizens who can't afford the local health care buy their medicine from pharmacies in Canada.

      The US has a great health care infrastructure and the best doctors. All of the problems with the US system are summed up in a single word: "Insurance." Insurance is big business at its absolute worst. Insurance is a highly regulated and politicized industry that has taken the ability to control health care expenses from the individual and given it to the bureaucrats.

      Insurance is very much like this quasi government controlled content funding scheme where you introduce a corrupt middle layer into content purchases.

      IMHO, the biggest problem with the current music industry is that there is a massive group of media conglomerates that have taken control of the industry. The media moguls have inserted themselves between the musicians and audience. They define what is popular and take the lion share of the profit. The same is true with health care. The problems lie with the middle layer.

      I would think the solutions to our problems is to find ways around these middle layers, and to find better ways for the public to buy directly from musicians and to remove the expensive and ultimately oppressive middle layer of insurance companies and media moguls.

    7. Re:State Control of Art = Good by dolo666 · · Score: 1

      Are you telling me that Canada has bad medical coverage? Tell that to the millions of Americans that sneak over here and use it! I'm Canadian and I'm happy that I'm not having to auction my house for the surgery I had last week.

      Politics can go back and forth like a ping pong match, but one side has to win eventually. :)

      Justice and goodness will always prevail, in time.

    8. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Are you telling me that Canada has bad medical coverage? Tell that to the millions of Americans that sneak over here and use it!

      The Canadian healthcare system is bad in the long run. In fact, it matches a technical definition of "evil". I refer specifically to their drug-sales system, which is the part that US consumers are most eager to take advantage of (and am not talking about the surgical aspects really). Drug production is legally and economically similar to the music industry, as both are selling intellectual property that is expensive to create but cheaply replicatable.

      The reason Canada's drug prices are vaguely evil is that if the US adopted a similar pharmacutical pricing scheme, medical improvements would slow down. A main driver of advances in drugs is the high price US customers pay for them. Other nations may piggyback off the inventions of a free-market in medicine. But if every country arbitrated pricing like that, there'd be nobody pushing SOTA forward.

    9. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      I find it funny that capitalists and right wingers like you consider nationalized healthcare to be evil, while endorsing monopolized/oligopolized drug monopolies.

      I guess as long as the few corporations that control the drug industry benefit it's find and dandy...

      I wonder why you aren't criticizing the computer industry, where we know that many other countries/corporations/regions benefit off the US research. Shouldn't you like try to monopolize the computer industry too?

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
    10. Re:State Control of Art = Good by velo_mike · · Score: 1

      And when control of the state swings back to the likes of Bush and Ashcroft; or Reagan and Meese, what kind of art will be state approved?

      All painting will be Norman Rockwell - I'll point you to Meese's war on porn and ashcroft covering the justice dept statues. Remember the shrill cry of indignation over Robert Mappelthorpe and "Piss Christ"? Yup, He'll be unemployed.

      Music, this is the only time in history that music isn't under the thumb of the state, or the church with back in the day was the state. Hope you like Sinatra (though he can get a bit racy), Tom Jones, or Englbert whatshisname. What won't make the govt approval list? Well, anything in the Rap genre causes crime. Heavy Metal? Nope those kids listening to Ozzy killed themselves. Country/Western - too much alcohol and besides, those damn dixie chicks spoke out against the war. Oh yeah, Bob Dylan, Arlo Guthrie, the Dead, the Airplane -- they'll all be cleaning toilets, we don't need that devisive protest music.

      We've still got TV and the movies but I'll let those thoughts sink in for a bit first.

      --

      At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
      Alan Greenspan

    11. Re:State Control of Art = Good by dolo666 · · Score: 1

      Calling Canada's drug prices evil is like calling Geroge Bush a saint -- it's just not true (not even his pundits believe it). The drug prices in Canada are usually reasonable. Sometimes, they are too expensive, but we can get total coverage for drugs in Canada at a reasonable insurance rate.

      Americans come here for free surgery, and if they legally cross-border shop for our prescription drugs -- so be it. I don't think even Uncle Sam minds if that happens. Provincial Healthcare doesn't pay for prescriptions, FYI.

    12. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The state is grossly inefficient at anything it does.

      Americans say this all the time. Has it ever occured to you people that it might just be the US state that is grossly inefficient...?

    13. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are kidding right? This has to be satire. I don't want the government controlling *anything*. Good satire is hard to tell from the real thing.

    14. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's an idea. Leave the state out of it and let artists sell their own art.

      I have no problem with things like Piss Christ, but I don't want to pay for it with my tax money. I don't even want to pay for Rockwell with my tax money. If I want it, I'll buy it.

      Why exempt artists from reality? Let them produce anything they want. If someone buys it, fine. If not, they'll have to find another way of making a living, just like the rest of us. There's no law against indulging in your own hobbies on your own time.

    15. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Eiki · · Score: 1

      Has it ever occured to you that thinking you can just replace the state with your own guys and everything will be all right is naive utopianism?

    16. Re:State Control of Art = Good by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Nope I've dealt with foreign governments as well, and have yet to see any that wouldn't require ten rems of paper before dispersing a quarter to allow a guest to use a coin operated toilet.

      After all, we have to make sure the funds aren't going to be used to fund the creations of WMD or for greedy purposes, or anti-government movement. Can't have any of that now can we?

      Even if you believe your lawmakers come up with good laws, it hardly changes the fact that it takes them months or years to do so. If you want rapid action and decision in government you want a monarchy or a dictatorship, and even then you've only accomplished it on the top level of government.

      Now can you imagine what life would be like if all this red tape and overhead were applied to patches? X has nowhere near the red tape we'd have with government control and at how long it takes for anything to get in if ever!

    17. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Eiki · · Score: 1
      He didn't say we should monopolize the drug (or the computer) industry, merely that we should liberalize the market and let it decide the best organization. Anyway, how exactly does one "monopolize" any market? Would it be like seizing the assets and nationalizing the industry? It think it would ... and find that this is exactly what you propose!

      _I_ find it funny that lefties like you consider monopolies evil, while endorsing the worst monopoly of all - the state. Seriously, at least an oligopoly has more than ONE producer!

    18. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LMFAO: "When the means of production are owned by the state, then we will create a paradise for programmers and other creative artists."

      No sane person can seriously believe this.

    19. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Carnivorous+Carrot · · Score: 1

      We need drug and medical technology advancing as quickly as possible. Having government AND private, greedy industry dumping hundreds of billions a year into it is a good thing.

      But for it to work, they have to recoup their investments. If you get some (scientifically illiterate) politician pandering who reduces the sell rate, the profits come in more slowly, and there's less for future investments.

      As the years go by, the society's medical technology lags further and further behind where it otherwise would be.

      In fifty years, one culture is bragging about how they give out free AIDS drugs and blood pressure medication, the other is saying, "WTF, we cured that shit ten years ago."

      Which society would you rather live in?

      And in any event, why in god's name do you think you have the right to force others to live in that inferior society?

      Anything that slows this technological advancement is demonstrably evil.

      --
      "Has [being a kidnapped teenage girl, raped repeatedly for months] changed you?" - Katie Couric to Elizabeth Smart
    20. Re:State Control of Art = Good by Carnivorous+Carrot · · Score: 1

      Remember: To a politician, a dead guy in the hand now is worth a hundred million unnecessary dead over the next 30 years.

      They just developed a synthetic cholesterol that clears out arteries. If the FDA delays that for two years, that would be well over a million unnecessary deaths in the US alone. Safety? Compared to what? Efficacy? Compared to what?

      --
      "Has [being a kidnapped teenage girl, raped repeatedly for months] changed you?" - Katie Couric to Elizabeth Smart
    21. Re:State Control of Art = Good by dolo666 · · Score: 1

      "Which society would you rather live in?"
      The one where there is no AIDS, no corporations and no government. Where we all get along because it's the most logical and good thing to do. The one where dreams can come true for anyone. You know -- The Matrix.

  45. Re:Not an alternative to the NEA by Hatta · · Score: 1

    Forcing Brittney Spears, Madonna, Eminem, Jennifer Lopez, etc... down our ears to the point that I'd pay NOT to hear it is what I find objectionable.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  46. For all the cries of this killing the GPL... by shaitand · · Score: 2, Funny

    Under this system or any other in which copyright were abolished, indeed the GPL would lose it's might. But that is a moot point since the GPL would lose it's purpose as well. In a world where everything is in the Public domain there is no longer any risk of a corporation closing it up since their derivative would also be in the public domain.

    In essence this is the ultimate GPL.

    1. Re:For all the cries of this killing the GPL... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Under this system or any other in which copyright were abolished

      Read The Fine Article, it does NOT abolish copyright and it would have no effect on the GPL.

      It's still a lousy system tho.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    2. Re:For all the cries of this killing the GPL... by smallpaul · · Score: 1

      The GPL requires the delivery of source when binaries are redistributed. If copyright law were abolished, software companies would have no reason to give out source code with their (automatically redistributable binaries).

    3. Re:For all the cries of this killing the GPL... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      If copyright law were abolished anyone could freely decompile those binary and run them through an asm2c grinder and distribute as is. Certainly less than perfect but it would apply to EVERYTHING.

  47. The government is already in this business. by mellon · · Score: 1

    The mere fact that the government is in the business of enforcing copyright means that they are in the business of supporting the arts. As the joke goes, we know what they are. Now we're just haggling over the structure of the deal.

    1. Re:The government is already in this business. by Stile+65 · · Score: 1

      Still, ideas like the GPL circumvent the government (in a way) and their enforcement of the application of copyright law to "close" art. Why can't a similar idea be applied to music and art?

      Also, just because the government is "in the business" doesn't mean they should be. :)

      --
      I claim first use of "Error No. 0B" - or "No. 0B error." It'll be the new ID 10T!
    2. Re:The government is already in this business. by mellon · · Score: 1
      Also, just because the government is "in the business" doesn't mean they should be. :)

      That was my point, actually. Although realistically I don't see the government getting out of this business, and I therefore feel gleefully justified in haggling over the structure of the deal. :')

    3. Re:The government is already in this business. by Stile+65 · · Score: 1

      Absolutely, agreed with ya there.

      I have the same philosophy with taxes. I would prefer the government getting out of a lot of businesses and greatly reducing our taxes, but if I can't have that, I'd at least like to replace the income tax with something like the FairTax.

      --
      I claim first use of "Error No. 0B" - or "No. 0B error." It'll be the new ID 10T!
  48. The real way to do it.... by IshanCaspian · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...is to just monitor consumption of copyrighted works. Everyone pools 200$, and each song just gets a percentage based on its "mindshare." If, say, Madonna's music constitutes 1% of all music downloads, she gets 1% of the pool. Of course, this requires huge amounts of monitoring of popular media, but it is the only way to allow art to embrace technology.

    --

    But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
    1. Re:The real way to do it.... by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      it is the only way to allow art to embrace technology

      Wow. What a bold claim.

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    2. Re:The real way to do it.... by IshanCaspian · · Score: 1

      If art can be copied infinitely, it has no value in a scarcity-based economic model such as our own. Technology is, among other things, the most efficient tool for reproducing art the world has ever known.

      --

      But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
  49. Kick'em while there down. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real question we should be asking ourselves is. Why the double standard when it comes to artists and everyone else? When everyone else wants to make a living they invest time, money and energy learning what they need to know. Then they go out and engage in the time honored exchange of skills-knowledge for money, and while there's the usual bickering (not being paid enough. work conditions suck, etc). Most people don't see anything problamatic. Now when an artist tries to do the same. To start with. There's lack of respect (Oh what you're doing isn't a "real" job, or career). Then there's people who think that what you're doing has little or no value (but don't see the contradiction in downloading, keeping and enjoying what you've produced). Grudgingly give you your due (Oh you're making too much money. You should be poor. Huh? I will if you will). Then proceeds to kick the foundations that help make your career possible (I have a hankering to abolish some "at will" laws). All artists want is the same that everyone else want. To make an honest living like everyone else, free of hassle.

  50. Fascinating by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Count me in, but here's an interesting question. I have a degree in Fine Art and a number of other experiences that I believe would qualify me for the program. What should really be the criteria for being accepted to the program?

    --
    stuff |
  51. Re:AFV == Bad Bad Bad by BigRedFish · · Score: 3, Insightful

    my first voucher will go to the person who invented AFV

    ...instead of any artist whose music you enjoy, demonstrating why this half-baked idea won't work. Not for artists, anyway - I have hundreds upon hundreds of names in my collection, I perfer micropayments to each rather than having to give the whole pot to one of them, shutting the others out of the music biz. If I were in a monopoly position and had a large advertising budget, like say, the RIAA, I'm pretty sure I could use this system to make it almost impossible for competitors to get paid, that's for sure.

    You think commercial music's bad now, try compulsory royalties: the record industry gets paid no matter what, and with this scheme, you can only support one competing artist per year. Sounds like an RIAA wet dream to me. Hope you like Justin Timberlake and Britney.

  52. The paper is riddled by bad premises by morelife · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Copyright is about ownership, not about the government or taxpayers "supporting" artists.

    Art is not the only case where copyright comes into play.

    Copyright and fraud are mutually exclusive ideas.

    All of the material produced by these workers would be placed in the public domain where it could be freely reproduced.

    Because you say so? What if an artist doesn't want her work in the public domain, or reproduced?

    If either artists don't sign up for the program (maybe distrust of government, looking at their past record in funding the arts), or taxpayers fail to contribute. You would quickly have a non-program.

    Even if all this is blatantly incorrect, I can't see any idea remotely like this going through the House and Senate; they're not gonna let a "Piss Christ" (remember Andres Serrano, Robert Mapplethorpe, the NEA, etc etc) become Public Domain.

    1. Re:The paper is riddled by bad premises by Alsee · · Score: 1

      While I agree it's a lousy proposal, it's your post that is riddled with problems.

      House and Senate; they're not gonna let a "Piss Christ" (remember Andres Serrano, Robert Mapplethorpe, the NEA, etc etc) become Public Domain

      The House and Senate can't prevent Piss Christ from becoming public domain. The constitution REQUIRES it to become public domain after a "limited time". The artist is also perfectly free to release it to the public domain immediately simply by saying so.

      >All of the material produced by these workers would be placed in the public domain
      Because you say so?


      No. First of all it MUST become public domain one way or another. Secondly if you RTFA you'd see that "these workers" reffers to people who have specificly granted permission for their works to be released to the public domain without the usual X-year delay.

      Copyright is about ownership

      No it isn't. Check the constitution, copyright is "To promote the progress of science and useful arts". Copyright is a government policy for the purpose of giving people an incentive to create and to get those works into the public domain. The constitution states that copyright protections may only exist for a LIMITED time. That means the constitution REQUIRES all works to become public domain. The originally intended duration was 14 years, with a possiblity to request a single 14 year renewal if the creator was still alive.

      Copyright exists to promote more creation in order to get more works into the public domain. Copyright is not a property right. For one thing property rights never expire.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    2. Re:The paper is riddled by bad premises by morelife · · Score: 1

      it's your post that is riddled with problems.
      Ok there, let's try and keep it impersonal and professional :)

      Actually I did read the FA, and realize that the "workers" 1) would have to enter the program, and 2) could release their work under that program into the public domain prior to the standard length of time.

      While you were busy figuring out the details there, you might have missed the point which is that no artist, that I have ever heard of, would prematurely give up the copyright and allow work into the Public Domain -- even if this was ultimately going to happen. Artists who do work of any merit or importance (yes, we make those distinctions) usually arrange for their estate to extend the copyright after their death in the interest of protecting their work - not protecting as in a property right - but as an idea.

      Creators of works made after 1978 hold copyright for their lifetime PLUS 70 years which is a damn long time, which you didn't mention in your posting. It would be highly UNLIKELY AND UNUSUAL THAT ANY ARTIST WOULD WILLFULLY RELEASE THIER WORK INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN BEFORE THEIR LIFETIME PLUS 70. And I include software authors here.

      And that is because the concept of copyright, as seen in the practical workings of the society we live in, is used ENTIRELY as a protective measure -- regardless of it technically correct meaning or the original intent at creation time.

      >>Copyright is about ownership
      >No it isn't.

      Yes, it is - people think of it as the property right to their idea, and that's how they use it.

    3. Re:The paper is riddled by bad premises by Alsee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you might have missed the point which is that no artist, that I have ever heard of, would prematurely give up the copyright and allow work into the Public Domain

      Sure they [many] would. Did you miss the fact that in exchange they would be given the opportunity to collect cash(vouchers)? Getting money is a pretty good reason to waive copyright protection. Theoretically it is a reasonable choice for at least some artists to make, though the system would be a mess in practice.

      Artists who do work of any merit or importance usually arrange for their estate to extend the copyright after their death in the interest of protecting their work

      Yeah, an artifact of abusing the words "limited times" and making copyright effectively endless. The fact that some artists now want copyright to never expire does not make it right or good. The purpose of copyright is the public benefit. The orginal duration of copyright was set to expire on average around the same time as the creators. To approximately quote Jefferson: the earth belongs to the living, the dead have no right to bind them. There is no public benefit in enforcing copyright restrictions on the works of people long dead. The only reason copyright should ever be enforced on the works of dead people is because the copyright should simply have a fixed duration.

      the concept of copyright, as seen in the practical workings of the society we live in, is used ENTIRELY as a protective measure -- regardless of it technically correct meaning or the original intent at creation time.

      Because copyright law has been drifting in harmful ways. The copyright lobby is very powerful in influencing congress and there has been no lobby to represent the public interest. Just because the copyright lobby has been sucessful in pushing through bad copyright law is not a valid justification to support bad copyright law.

      The oringinal intent is quite important because congress is only capable of making copyright law because the constitution gives them that power, and they are bound by the constituion. In my oppinion they have gone beyond constitutional limits and passed unconstitutional (invalid) laws.

      Yes, it is - people think of it as the property right to their idea

      There are certainly people pushing the concept of "copyright as property", but it is a new concept. An invalid, lousy, and harmful concept. Information is not a peice of property. It has an entirely different nature than a peice of property and it behaves in an entirely different manner than physical property. It is covered my an entirely different body of law, and that law functions in an entirely different way and grants entirely different rights and protections. The rights of copy are far far more limited than the rights of property. They are SUPPOSED to be far more limited than the rights of property. The copyright lobby WANTS property-like rights, and by changing the language to call it "property" they are tricking prople into thinking that the law already treats copyright like property and that the law needs to be "fixed" when it doesn't give copyright holders property rights. Just because the copyright lobby wants to call it property does not mean the law should be changed to give them more rights.

      Copyright law would be a good thing if we just rolled back some of the increases to copyright law. Copyright law was good. It has been growing like a cancer unchecked. The expansions have become harmful.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    4. Re:The paper is riddled by bad premises by swillden · · Score: 1

      Because copyright law has been drifting in harmful ways.

      That's a very kind way to say "Has completely abrogated the social contract upon which it's based".

      By way of example, find some random, non-geek, non-copyright-holder and ask him or her who owns the copyright on Shakespeare's plays. Nine times out of ten, the person will consider this to be a reasonable (albeit pointless and obscure) question.

      Copyright terms have gotten so long that the average person doesn't realize that they ever expire. And, of course, if some copyright holders have their way, said average person is completely correct.

      I think that in one way, the kudzu-like growth of copyright law has backfired on the copyright holders who lobbied for it: Because most people don't understand that copyrights are limited (both in time and in extent), they don't see the underlying social contract. They just see the version of it pushed by Big Content, which is that copyright exists so that producers get paid. When said producers are already millionaires, the average person has few moral reservations about infringing.

      Stated a bit more concisely: People don't feel bad about copyright infringement because they see that copyright is one-sided and unfair to the public.

      The result? Rampant piracy. P2P file sharing would still exist if copyright were fair, but I think the public would look far more favorably on the copyright-holders' arguments, and I think they'd have a much easier time with enforcement.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  53. my response by WankersRevenge · · Score: 1

    From an old joke:

    In capitalism, man exploits man
    In communism, its the other way around

    1. Re:my response by geekee · · Score: 1

      "In capitalism, man exploits man In communism, its the other way around"

      If their is exploitation in capitialism, at least the exploited person chose that poison. In communism, there is no choice. You are always exploited for the good of the collective, and have no choice.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
  54. A cool idea, but there are some issues... by axlrosen · · Score: 2, Funny

    I really like the general idea. Capitalism works great for material goods, but it has a lot of problems for digital goods, in the face of unstoppable copying. It would be interesting to try a whole new system and see how it works. I think you could add software to this system as well as music and movies and such.

    That said, I see a few problems:

    - It depends on each taxpayer to be (slightly) altruistic. You have to take the trouble to remember and then designate a recipient on your tax form, but you get no direct benefit from this. What if you don't put anyone down, is the money lost? What if 75% of the people are too lazy to write down a recipient? Maybe the unassigned money goes proportially to all the artists that people did put down.

    - How do you remember which artist(s) to give it to throughout the year? I predict that every album and every movie will come out in March under this system.

    - How do you define a "fraudulent" registration? What if me and my buddy both register, then we each make a finger painting and give it to each other, and then we put each other down on the tax form? Who's to say that that art wasn't good enough to qualify as a "registered" artist? I think you'd have to make people pay $100 to register, to prevent this from happening.

    - Do people in other countries get to copy these works? If so, then the country that implemented this system would essentially be subsidizing
    listeners in other countries.

  55. Jessica Lynch was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:Jessica Lynch was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No she was fingering her hot wet PUSSY!

  56. AVFs market-based, good artists still make more! by monkeyfamily · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Let's get a couple of things straight. Under the AFV plan:
    • The gov't has no creative filter, just a system to make sure each person's only in the system once, and that real people submit their own work into the public domain in return for AFVs
    • Each citizen can direct their AFV toward whoever they choose. This means that really popular artists, or groups of artists like you need to make a movie, will get vastly more than $40k a year, and that people just noodling around in their spare time might pick up a supplemental income. In other words, the government creates an alternative market system without artificial monopolies - realize that copyright is a governmental intrusion even worse than AFVs.
    There is room for improvement in the proposal. A constant dollar amount (or even an inflation-pegged one) for the voucher would have the market-distorting effect of fixing the ratio of public domain artists to the population as a whole. The proportion of our dollars spent on entertainment fluctuates under the copyright regime; CD sales drop in a recession, or when people are spending their money on cell phones instead. Can anyone think of a better way to set the values for AFVs? You wouldn't want it to depend linearly on the number of artists enrolled, because that would have no mechanism to discourage entrance to a glutted market, but you do need the money available to info producers to increase as manufacturing and service industries are further automated.
  57. Indier Than Thou by tedrlord · · Score: 1

    Sure, MC Chris is good and all, but he's no Frontalot.

    --
    [insert witty quote here]
    1. Re:Indier Than Thou by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Holy crap -- there's no other reasonable explanation other than that you're my twin brother.

      How I've missed you.

    2. Re:Indier Than Thou by tedrlord · · Score: 1

      Wow. It's like some sort of weird psychic connection. What number am I thinking of?

      --
      [insert witty quote here]
    3. Re:Indier Than Thou by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      4?

      It was 4 wasn't it?

  58. This is a dumb idea by Meor · · Score: 1

    Anything that has to do with taxes that doesn't involve the public good of everyone is a bad idea. Not only is this system highly abusable:
    Anything can be considered art, therefore anyone who does anything can register for vouchers, therefore everyone can voucher themselves.
    and exploitable by anyone with good business sense:
    I'll pay everyone 99.99$ for them to give me their 100$ voucher. I make 5,000$ for moving money around.
    but it has to do with taxes, which means if we're paying 500,000 people 40,000$ a year, that's going to be a 20,000,000$ tax increase. That price will be divided up among all tax payers.
    Bad bad bad BAD idea.

  59. Free distribution wouldn't hurt artists by rollingcalf · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If copyright only protected performance rights and not reproduction of recorded material, artists would not be hurt very much if at all.

    That's because artists make the vast majority of their money from performing, merchandise, and endorsements, not from album sales. That holds true regardless of whether they are a local band that plays for $100/night or a double-platinum superstar. $1/CD isn't very much, especially after it gets split between band members, managers, and other interested parties. Britney Spears couldn't make anywhere near her $40+ million in a year just from album sales, and the local band would probably be among the many bands who lose money when they cut an album with a major label.

    With recorded music being freely distributable, artists would [b]encourage[/b] people to put the music on P2P and burn CDs for their friends. Albums would serve as promotion material to attract people to buy concert tickets, T-shirts, autographed albums, etc., and the increased exposure would make up for most or all of whatever they would have earned from selling CDs.

    Of course, the middlemen who eat up the other $17 out of the $18 per CD are the ones who would really hurt if all music CDs became freely copyable.

    Unfortunately, just one or two artists deciding to allow free copying of their own music wouldn't help the situation much, because the RIAA still has so much control over the promotion and distribution channels. The whole system would have to be freed up in this manner for the artists to reap the benefits of the increased exposure that unrestricted copying would bring.

    --
    ---------
    There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
    1. Re:Free distribution wouldn't hurt artists by iCat · · Score: 1

      If copyright only protected performance rights and not reproduction of recorded material, artists would not be hurt very much if at all

      Whay planet are you living on? So, if I write a one hit song/write one bestsellet I can go on tour for a few months and that compensates me for the rest of my life?

    2. Re:Free distribution wouldn't hurt artists by rollingcalf · · Score: 1

      "Whay planet are you living on? So, if I write a one hit song/write one bestsellet I can go on tour for a few months and that compensates me for the rest of my life?"

      Whatever you made on tour will dwarf the song sales. A platinum single will net you less than $250K in your pocket, but if you tour during the time your one-hit is up on the charts you can make more than that in a month.

      --
      ---------
      There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
  60. If you like MC Chris by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  61. Insightful? Should be modded "didn't read article" by serutan · · Score: 1

    There is so much more to this proposal than simply issuing vouchers, this comment doesn't deserve comment.

  62. Re:AFV == Bad Bad Bad by JohnTheFisherman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Even worse, they can feel free to rip off anyone, so you'll invariably get great songwriters starving to death while Britney and Justin sing their songs. Many people will abandon art as a career altogether since they can expect no protection for anything the sweat over.

    Why not just allow people to spend "money they have" on "music and art?" This "freedom" voucher (freedom from income for a lot of artists) idea takes the worst of socialism (as opposed to the less worse parts ;))and adds a tiny bit of free choice.

  63. Fundamental Mismatch: N artists per taxpayer? by G4from128k · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The AFV program makes horribly naive assumptions about the numbers of artists that a given consumer enjoys. Between books, CDs, movies, magazines, and art, I probably enjoy the artistic output of at least 1000 "artists" per year (especially when you consider the multiple artists involved in producing a CD or movie). How am I to allocate my $100 voucher among these numerous artists?

    I consume media across formats and genres, so no intermediary is likely to represent even a small fraction of my interests (and the intermediary is likely to support artists that I don't like). And listing all these artists on my tax form would be a major pain. Instead, I'd rather make a small payment to the artist when I actually buy or consume their work. Sounds like the current system to me.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  64. bunch of crap... by primalamn · · Score: 1

    This idea assumes that protecting a creative work or idea is a bad thing. Why would I, as a practicing designer and artist, want to let anyone and their dog reproduce whatever I spent many hours on for $100...maybe. Copyright, or what is stands for, IS THE INCENTIVE TO PRODUCE CREATIVE WORK AND IDEAS. It means that someone can come up with, say an illustration or a song, and be able to make a living from it. As a point, most creatives out there do not make a lot of money, they make what their talents will get them. A few make more than they need to [read pop music in general, or blow up action movies]. This is a stupid idea that would marginalize creative acts as subsidized government things. They would be viewed as unimportant, which in reality they are the things that actually create society, define culture and translate ideas. Copyright, or the right to have ideas and use them without fear of some moron copying you and marginallized your hard work, is a good thing. Just to prove a point, someone out there copy this guys entire idea, then publish it as their own idea, with no reference to the original author, and try to sell it as their own. I bet he would be pissed. The only way he could prove it was his ideas is by...anyone....copyright registration!! Stupid idea.

  65. The problem... by SwansonMarpalum · · Score: 1
    The problem with this plot is that it is fundamentally incompatible with copyrights: you cannot release work as both copyrighted AND under the AFV. Artists must choose to work under either one or the other but not both, and copyrights are profitable right now.

    I think the interesting nuggest which people have often overlooked is that online distribution has already surpassed CDs. Apple has 80% of that market. If Apple started signing new artists directly instead of doing everything through the RIAA, both the Artists and apple could benefit greatly, leaving the evil megacorporation out in the cold.

    --
    "Give away the stone, let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and faded anchor." - Maynard James Keenan
    1. Re:The problem... by gerardrj · · Score: 1

      online distribution has already surpassed CDs
      No it hasn't. At least not for legal copies. A recent article floating around seemed to state that more music was purchased online that on CDs, but the date they cited was only relevant to CD "singles", which historically sold very poorly in retail stores.
      On-line, singles make sense and sell well.

      --
      Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
  66. Everyone alway forgets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  67. Vincent van Gogh cut an ear off by iCat · · Score: 1

    I'd be interested in their definition of an 'artist'

    Should an artist be Patronised? Subsidised? Neutralised?

    Sounds to me like being an artist could be the next cushy number under this proposal. Holden Caulfield where are you now?

  68. Someone doesn't understand copyright... by TyrranzzX · · Score: 1

    Why is Mickey Mouse, The Beatles, and Aerosmith still under copyright in the usa? Because copyright lasts for 97 years last I checked, and has been extended 11 times in the past century. Anyone who has looked at this pattern will understand that when copyright lives forever, large corperations will simply aquire more and more and more copyrights until they own all the music and once they have extablished a monopoly, they then own the culture, as the RIAA does for example, and we're in a bad situation as we are now where the media is continuing to get cruddier and cruddier, news content gets worse every year, and the goverment can get away with voting machines that don't actually count votes properly.

    Before we go about proposing new solutions, how about we fix the system first and slaughter the pigs at the top? I have a feeling if the system was fixed and worked properly as it was intended then we wouldn't have all these problems, or better yet. Mabye if the hippies and techies went down to the library (you know, that place with a lot of books, they rent them for free ya know) or picked up a computer with a p2p app installed and started to do some research on their culture and history, and then proceeded to teach their kids, relatives, etc then mabye we wouldn't have such dumbfoundingly stupid ideas being popped up on slashdot and nerds with little understanding about how the system works poking holes in every orifice of the idea.

    Or even better, mabye if the public school system taught history properly, and taught the kids of the mistakes other countries and goverments have made, showed them what war, poverty, disease, etc is (and not bf1942 or happi dappy descriptions out of books; I'm talking graphic pictures, audio, movies, etc so they know what it is) and how to watch out for racism, fascism, and why these things are wrong, and actually helped to make kids into producive members of society rahter than complacent burger flippers we'd be better off.

  69. benefits of a voluntary compensation model by rjnagle · · Score: 1

    This isn't exactly the same thing, but an essay of mine proposed a voluntary compensation model for artists.

    The voucher proposal is much more radical. The problem lies in who makes the decision to fund individual artists. If it is a government board of some sort, then you have the problem of government entanglement (as well as the requisite backlash from know-nothing conservatives). Interestingly, this kind of idea might swing in Europe, which already provides public support for artists. But in USA, this sort of idea is inconceivable for political reasons (especially if these donations were to be a kind of tax writeoff).

    If the grantor is the individual donor, then how does the individual decide the "most worthy" candidate for these types of awards? Often the taste of the wealthy donor just won't be sophisticated enough to ensure that the right kinds of talent is identified.

    The alleged benefit behind such a proposal is to eliminate economic transactional costs and to encourage works to go into the public domain. But as far as I see, it doesn't identify or support talent any better than the status quo. Yes, it would be a little prestigious to say that you've won such a grant. But it really doesn't help solve the problem of making the artist's works visible to the reader/spectator/surfer.

    As much as I hate the copyright system, I don't see it as really hurting artists from the standpoint of compensation. (Yes, it hurts the right of free expression, as well as allowing corporations to prevent redistribution of creative works. But these things don't really hurt the artist immediately). A large number of content is going towards being free or legally redistributable anyway. I don't see the increased amount of public artwork as being a really big win here.

    Here's a better idea (and one in which I propose in my essay cited above). Every artist seeking donations should put a link to paypal or Amazon donation system. (Helpful info for artists: Given current fees structures, it appears that if the donation is less than $5, tipping through Amazon has the lowest transaction fees. Over $5, it's probably cheaper to tip through paypal).

    Having a tipjar up is not really obtrusive, doesn't make the artist sound as if he/she's begging and allows the artist to receive an enormous percentage of the cut. But the plain fact is that an overwhelming majority of artistic people just never do so (except webloggers; a large number of webloggers have tipjars; go figure). This sort of plan is far simpler and more direct than some elaborate scheme like this. (And yes, it suffers from the problem of the patron with awful taste and deep pockets).

    Our society has a big problem with compensating its creative people. I have seen oodles of talented people just suffering through abject poverty without reasonable hope of support. This is an interesting plan and well worth thinking about. But it requires far too much buyin from politicians. Tipjars are a much more obvious solution.

    The main problem I see with the essay is that the writer uses the proposal as a way to mend the copyright problem. That for unsigned musicians and artists is a relatively minor issue. Proposals should be directed instead towards how to encourage individual artists to seek donations from web traffic and how to make it easier for Joe Average to find out about unknown artists. Take the problem of mp3's. A good 90-95% of mp3's out there are freely and legally available by artists you've never heard of. How does the average citizen learn about great works? The problem is not technology or even the law but the discovery process itself. What media outlets provide trustworthy insights about what music is worth listening to? As Tim O'Reilly observed, "Obscurity is a far greater threat to authors and creative artists than piracy."

    --
    Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
  70. it's already there by Janek+Kozicki · · Score: 1

    and it is called "please distribute my artwork as widely as possible, and if you like it, just send me 10$"

    umm not sure - freeware? kinda-of-postcardware?

    anyway, any artist can use this kind of licese. so why they do not?

    --
    #
    #\ @ ? Colonize Mars
    #
  71. Doomed to failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hmmm....a $100 refundable tax credit that I can give to a "creative worker". In exchange for getting my tax credit, they give up their copyright to the music I like.

    Let's see....Do I give it to my favorite band on the radio? Nope. CEPR estimates that a big label musician would be giving up their copyrights for approximately $40,000. Bands getting regular rotation on Clear Channel probably don't want the voucher because they might loose money if they give away their hit song. (Yes, I know what Steve Albini and Courtney Love have to say about record contracts. I also know that big label musicians can easily make beyond $40K/yr, even with a bad contract. I saw a "Behind The Music" on VHI that said the female rap group TLC, who filed for bankruptcy after having a notoriously crappy contract, was already making $40k/yr. Their lifestyle would have caused bankruptcy on a $40k/yr income regardless of whether the money came from vouchers or copyrights.) For professional musicians, vouchers are not worth the risk.

    What about my favorite indie band? Nah. They are probably waiting to be discovered and hit the big time. If they took the voucher money, someone who is already famous could use their song without paying them. If they want to let someone else sing their song, they would probably make more money selling the song. Besides, as we already know, it is possible to make a decent living without a big label or radio play.

    What about that guy who sings at coffee houses on open mic night? Yeah, he'd definitely take the voucher. He's certainly not getting any money for his singing. Oops! You don't know about that guy, so I'm the only one signing a voucher for him. He may want it, but how does it benefit the public to have his songs in the the public domain? How many people will want to sing songs written by Joe Coffeehouse?

    This is not a solution to the copyright problem.

  72. Re:Not an alternative to the NEA by ceejayoz · · Score: 1

    Fine.

    We're putting YOUR tax dollars into Halliburton subsidies, instead.

    IIRC it's possible to specify that your tax dollars don't get spent on the military - which results in them shifting your money around on paper. Hey, if it makes you feel better...

  73. It's not compulsory by serutan · · Score: 1

    The article clearly states that artists would get to opt in or out of the voucher plan. The only thing compulsory about it is the use of tax dollars, and the figures that you also didn't read make a pretty good case for the public payback being a lot larger than the input.

  74. The only thing wrong with copyright is. . . by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1
    the Digital Copyright Millenium Act.

    Things weren't quite so messed up ten years ago.

    In my ideal world. . . People and people's families would be allowed to hold a copyright for, say, 60 years, after which the material would go into the public domain.

    Corporations, because they are souless entities and not people, should be only be allowed to hold copyright for say, 40 years, (the approximate length of time the original people who worked on the project can be expected to remain employed at the company.) After that, the work should go into public domain.

    Further, I think that the transfer/sale of copyright should be completely illegal. The origin of a creation doesn't change simply because you sign a paper. The ability to sell and trade copyrights has been an undermining factor Western society for a long time.

    Corporations, if they are dissolved or sold, should be considered as dead and all their works should become public domain. --Or perhaps the copyright should defer to a coalition of the original creators should they choose to create a co-operative holding company, underwhich the copyright would remain in effect for however many years remain of the original 40.

    And public domain isn't so bad. It means ANY company can publish a creative work. This, dare I use the word, would result in a COMPETETIVE market place, rather than the (communist) state-supported monopoly market which America has devolved into. Disney and WB and, heck, most major American companies are Anti-competetive despite their bullshit complaints to the contrary.

    This voucher idea is insane. The DCMA is insane. Everybody is insane.

    The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the coming planetary cleansing is in fact a blessing in disguise.


    -FL

  75. Copywrite? by quantax · · Score: 1

    I don't think this is going against copywrite (the rights to owning your work and being able to protect it from redistribution, ie, "A Good Thing"), but rather against the publishers. Publishers in a lot of entertainment groups wield a lot of control, just as much in music as in video games. I think this is a good idea as I wouldnt have such a problem with giving money to the RIAA to give to artists if I actually knew they were getting the money. Not to mention, the RIAA's accounting within its parent companies is so shadowed and such, that we have no idea. Hopefully this would push a president for these record companies to be more accountable to the artists.

    These companies succeed due to obscurity and burying of facts when it comes to this, so maybe this will scare them into being more open. Or by the same token, they can come down with some ridiculous legal fist against artists taking fan 'donations' or whatever. Who knows what breech of contract they can make up with their legions of lawyers.

    --
    "What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
  76. another bullshit idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do these people even live on the same planet as the rest of us?

  77. What about non-public domain works ? by Jesrad · · Score: 1

    I understand how this would work for independant artists contributing to the public domain, but what about all the others, who are bound by exclusive contracts (if not worse - *cough*workforhire*cough*) ?

    I suggest the system gets extended to them, except that the money would then come from the majors, instead of tax returns from the Government.

    Before you complain, yes, I know the RIAA will fight this to the death...

    --
    Maybe we deserve this world ?
    1. Re:What about non-public domain works ? by yintercept · · Score: 1

      I think the ultimate point is to destroy the "work for hire" industry. Think of this as a scheme to liberate you from your job. Of course, the problem with programs that intend to undermine the tax base with tax subsidies is that once they have destroyed the tax base, well, the tax base is destroyed and the deductions are no longer worth anything.

  78. $100??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would I pay $100 to some artist of my choice? I dont even SPEND $100 on CDs in a year!

    Keep Linux Free!- Give the 100 to Linus

  79. It's called money... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Enough said!

  80. Re:AFV == (not so) Bad Bad Bad by Jesrad · · Score: 1

    What about putting more than one name on the voucher ? Then the value gets divided upon them. With nowadays information system this could be implemented without too much of a cost (hopefully).

    --
    Maybe we deserve this world ?
  81. *WARNING*SEALAB REFERENCE*WARNING* by SargeZT · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Hesh will see you, in robot hell!

    --
    And why did you staple the trout to the RAM?
  82. We don't need no stinkin' Artists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously fuck them if they can't figure out how to earn a living w/o some legal fiction/intangible consenual hallucination perversion of PROPERTY.
    If you make it you own it and can sell it.Once its sold thats it you no longer control it.If the Louvre would sell it to me I could cut the Mona Lisa into strips and use it for toilet paper.

    1. Re:We don't need no stinkin' Artists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK thats my anarchist view.
      The US Constitution allows copyright/patent lets go with 7 years or the life of the owner whichever is shorter.That should "promote knowlege and useful arts" just fucking fine.Intellectual Property is still a load of crap though.

  83. I Vote for Artists When I Buy Their CDs by yintercept · · Score: 1

    The RIAA and music shares are focussed almost exclusively on the top 40 artists. No one seems to be noticing that thousands opon thousands of artists in the free market are now hawking limited run CDs. Anymore, you can cast an extra vote for your favorite local bands by buying a CD directly from the band when you attend their concerts.

    The problem we have now is that a left leaning sub group is intent on undermining the music community by building an expectation that all music must be free...just like roads, health care and sex must be free.

    IMHO, the best model that has appeared in the Internet was the original MP3...that distributed works of unsigned artists. It was a shame that they destroyed their company trying to capture the lame top 40 crowd.

    1. Re:I Vote for Artists When I Buy Their CDs by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      The problem we have now is that a left leaning sub group is intent on undermining the music community by building an expectation that all music must be free...just like roads, health care and sex must be free.

      First of all, I don't know where you get the idea that the free crowd is left-leaning. Some are but not all. Most of the free crowd are moderates and centrists. In any case, the notion of "free" from a leftist perspective is different. The best notion of free you can get, from a leftist view, is subsidization. The library is not free--it is subsidized.

      Having said that, leftist ARE in favour of freedom of sex, drugs, etc. In this case, the free applies to freedom and not money (try finding free drugs).

      I think you are mixing up the notion of free in the economic sense from free as in freedom.

      IMHO, the best model that has appeared in the Internet was the original MP3...that distributed works of unsigned artists. It was a shame that they destroyed their company trying to capture the lame top 40 crowd.

      This model is still going strong...err weak. I hope you do realize that a lot of people who download MP3s only download mainstream, big name, artists. Yes, it DID help the smaller ones but the impact was small. As far as I'm concerned, the "MP3 revolution" did not really help the smaller artists.

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
    2. Re:I Vote for Artists When I Buy Their CDs by yintercept · · Score: 1

      I know several independent artists who got money from MP3.com. If you could get in the top ten of a genre, you would walk away with a few thousand bucks.

      The sad thing was that a new technology was wiped out in a futile copyright battle.

      I know several bands which have gotten exposure and can now charge more for gigs by posting songs on the internet.

  84. Further Reading by Peter+Eckersley · · Score: 1
    I've written a much longer article about a similar scheme. Rather than using "vouchers", each participant (a taxpayer or a tax creditee) gets electronic votes that they can use to reward artists.

    There are lots of hurdles to be overcome -- computer security, "gaming the system", etc. But it still seems quite possible that these models would work better than DRM-based copyright.

    See the article, Virtual Markets for Virtual Goods for more details. It's rather long, and aimed at an academic audience which spends a lot of its time thinking about copyright (hey, that's slashdot, right?) but addresses most of the immediate concerns and attacks which posters are thinking of.

  85. "if this happened in the states..." by RLiegh · · Score: 1

    You're obviously un-aware of the low regard for integrity and high amounts of corruption going on here "in the states". Most of the politicians in Az, Ak and Wa would be in jail if they were private citizens [or vulnerable to the effects of breaking the law they way joe average is]. I don't know about any other states, but I doubt they are different.

  86. My "Voucher" System by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone "gives" (or else) 100% of their money to the government. The government then gives (some) of it back in the form of vouchers, to be spent only on certain items the government thinks you should have. Oh wait, they already tried this, it's called the Soviet Union.

    Everyone together, say it with me now -- stay the fsck out of my wallet!

  87. A different view for a new copyright system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This post is based on a paper I wrote in 2001-2002
    posted anonymously since I now work in DC where people
    aren't ready for good ideas that change things drastically.

    During the fall of my *** year at ***** University, I had the pleasure of attending a round-table discussion about the impending Napster case. Earlier that year, the university had acknowledged student use of the "peer to peer" system by limiting the bandwidth Napster clients could use. As a result, when the heavy metal band, Metallica, filed suit against Napster, ****** was named among the contributory infringers. Speakers at the round-table discussion, argued over whether or not the university constituted an Internet service provider, over whether or not enabling peer-to-peer sharing was contributory infringement, and even over what else the music industry should be doing, besides threatening higher education, to address the problem of piracy. But no one questioned that problem was real. Nor did they doubt that the problem was growing rapidly, and that regardless of the outcome of the Napster case, a serious challenge to copyright law was under way.
    History
    Copyright law is far from new. It's source dates back to the writing of the Constitution - or further if you consider that the Constitution draws from a long tradition of English law that began with the Licensing Act of 1662. In the three hundred and forty one years since its creation, copyright law has gone through many transformations. Before suggesting a new approach to copyright law, we should certainly understand how the law functions today, and why it breaks down. So what is copyright law, and how does it work? Allow me to review a few key points, salient to the discussion ahead.
    Every time you fix in tangible form some original creative work or expression you automatically gain a copyright on that material. You draw a finger painting and presto, instant copyright. The definition of what exactly is copyrightable has also changed over time, but currently the standard of an "original creative thought" seems to hold. This of course includes songs, books, and movies, but it also includes things like computer source code. While computer code's functional aspects fall into the domain of patents, the actual expression of that function in a programming language is covered by copyright. Once you have a copyright, it allows you to attribute the work to yourself, to create derivative works, to publicly display or distribute the work, to demand your name not be applied to other's derivatives, to sell the rights to the work to another, and of course to copy or reproduce the work. These last two rights will be the most important in our discussion. You can also register your copyright with the government. If you register, your work is protected by customs, and someone infringes on it, you may seek greater damages as well as legal fees from the infringer. You must register your work prior to filing an infringement lawsuit.
    Now you have a registered copyright, but how are you going to enforce it? You are afforded full protection under the law, but unfortunately, the structure of the legal system and of copyright law itself makes actual enforcement difficult. A century ago, if you wanted a copy of a work or a copy of a derivative work, someone had to make it for you. Most likely, it would come from a printing house. Thus, historically it made more sense to bring a suit against the company or person producing the offending works, rather than trying to find and litigate every person who purchased a copy. Today, this is simply impractical. One of the first examples of this new era in copyright law came with Sony vs. Universal in the early 1980's. The case centered on the misuse of VCRs to infringe on broadcasters copyrights. There was no central producer or distributor to challenge in court, since it was the end users who where making the copies. The case was brought against Sony because they produced the VCRs and thus were the only centralized entity even

  88. Scenario... by _aa_ · · Score: 1

    "Sweetie-darlin'.. we's just got 'dis vow-char whoozits in the letterbox."
    "Well, what's it fer Sugar-pumpkin?"
    "Sez we kin gives it to what-so-ever arteest we's want."
    "Hot damn, Sugar-pumpkin! Gives it to me! I'm an arteest!"
    "But Sweetie-darlin, you ain't not no arteest."
    "Like dangnation I'm not! What do you call those scrapin' books I been makin' all these years?! If'n those tain't arts, then what's is?"
    "I reckon you's right Sweetie-darlin! Gather up the younguns! We're dinin' at the Outback Steakhouse to-night! And Uncle Sam's a pickin' up the check! YEeEEe-HawW!"

    1. Re:Scenario... by primalamn · · Score: 1

      LOL! ...but it is exactly what would happen. Again, this article is crap.

  89. MC Chris? by srcosmo · · Score: 1
    I'm sure I'd use mine on MC Chris.

    But MC Frontalot has way more computer references, and hence greater nerd appeal.
    Whoa, does this mean my favourite rapper is more "real"? Can I shoot CowboyNeal now??
    "Gang war!"

    --
    free speach
    Did you mean: free speech
  90. An interesting to idea by Anti+Frozt · · Score: 1

    This looks like an interesting proposal. I get $100 to give to the artist(s) of my choice, I get a tax break on it, and the artists I like actually get the whole amount (provided I send it to them and not an intermediary). In turn, I go out and give them free promotion by placing their music on P2P networks, burning CDs for my friends, etc. and they end up getting a few more vouchers in their name.

    People that don't want their work funded by the AFV can choose not to. They can instead go to the RI/MPAA and choose to get only small fractions of sales whilst still having their music illegally traded on P2P networks. But this alternative doesn't seem so pleasing.

    This also promotes a system where the end-users decide who is popular, not the corporations telling us who is popular. No-talent hacks such as Brittney Spears would fail miserably while truly gifted artists would be successful.

    People are saying that this would destroy the GPL, but as someone mentioned, this would render the GPL useless as everything would be in the public domain.

    --
    In C++, friends can touch each others private parts.
  91. Nah by autopr0n · · Score: 1

    This money will all go directly to people's family members, and be transferred around like that. Unless we have some sort of giant government registration for "artists", and if you're not good enough, you can't be paid for your work.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  92. Re:Not an alternative to the NEA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "IIRC it's possible to specify that your tax dollars don't get spent on the military"

    YDNRC

  93. Artists become 501c3s? by WillWare · · Score: 2, Informative
    AFAICT, this proposal is equivalent to the idea that an artist becomes a tax-exempt charity (a 501c3) provided they release their work into the public domain. The vouchers themselves don't seem pivotal to the proposal (other than to limit the amount of money that gets moved around to $100 per adult). As a taxpayer, I wouldn't feel too bad about giving artists tax-exempt status in exchange for putting their work in the public domain.

    If we dispense with the vouchers and think of it as a change in the laws about what's allowed to call itself a charity. The IRS publishes some guidelines, the official rules aren't so easy to find. Currently you need to be an "organization" (so maybe artists would need to group together) and one of the allowed types is "literary", so this isn't entirely without precedent.

    Would people collude with their friends, and declare themselves artists, cheating the system with 5-minute finger-painting exercises done in macaroni and cheese? This kind of thing doesn't happen very much now with ordinary charities. That might mean that the government would insist on some criterion of artistic quality before giving out tax-exempt status. In any event it's an interesting idea.

    --
    WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
  94. Re:AVFs market-based, good artists still make more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    copyright is a governmental intrusion


    In what way?

  95. Do bullshit artists count? by surfcow · · Score: 1

    I'd use mine for the SCO legal team.

    Or perhaps for Bill "Security of Job One" Gates.

    =brian

  96. yes but by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

    thats exactly what i addressed at the end of my 2 cents. the record companies are quite happy to have you license the work and pay royalties. why should they want that to change?

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  97. Government Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Government control of something is far, far better than monopoly or oligopoly control of that thing.

    1. Re:Government Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know why you think that government control of something isn't every bit as much a monopoly as any other case of a single entity controlling a market or resource.

  98. Wrong! You missed an important point by serutan · · Score: 1

    According to the plan, artists who participate in the voucher system become ineligible for copyright protection for 5 years. Mega-stars would have no incentive to participate. That's an integral part of the plan. They probably couldn't if they wanted to anyway, because when they sign record contracts they largely lose control of their copyrights.

    1. Re:Wrong! You missed an important point by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 1

      Superstars (they are not called mega stars ;) ) wouldn't participate. BUT remember that superstars were once minor stars or was a nobody. The future superstars (who are nobodies now) will likely participate in the system.

      I think a lot of work needs to be done to this system. For instance, people should have the right to opt-out. Scammers, leechers, and other individuals up to no good, should be taken into account. And so on.

      Sivaram Velauthapillai

      --
      Sivaram Velauthapillai
      Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
  99. Re:Not an alternative to the NEA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Without funding for unsuccessful artists trying random crap, you get recycled crap. And, yes, I honestly prefer random crap to recycled crap.

    Recycled crap turns into design by selection - evolution that is; from crap into art. Think about it, we start off primitive and not very interesting, then involve into humans. Art should do the same, select that which is good, throw out that which is bad. Down with the NEA I say!

  100. You already HAVE those vouchers. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Look in your wallet.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  101. Time to damage Karma by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1
    Well I have to chime in on this. We manage the technology infracture (fancy way of saying we run the ecommerce site and servers) for a local online art mall started by a coop of differnet art groups. Many of the members of these groups are rich wives of local executives with nothing better to do. Many go to local artists and purchase re production rights and will sell prints on everything from calanders to framed copies of the original.

    Many local artists make enough money from these sales to do what they love, create art. Sure the rich wife might make $70K from the deal, but the artists often see $20 - 30k of that plus whatever commission or sale of orginials.

    Several local artist have their own stores and sell orginial works of art that we scan in using QTVR and most make between $20,000 - $30,000 a year. Not a lot, but around here average salary is $24,600. Now many of the artists are professors or teachers at one of the 12 colleges in a 90 mile radius, others are retired and might only make enough to pay for their paints and some extra spending cash.

    I like how artist were "sponsored" by the rich and powerful like back in the 16th and 17th century. I mean Joan Kroc (sp?) just gave NPR 200 Million.

    I support local bands I like by purchasing their CD's and giving donations (okay this is to the Drum Corps I marched with to provide scholarships for good players without the $3k per summer or whatever they are charging)

    I go see plays by the local theatre troop and help support they types of art I enjoy WITH MY HARD EARNED DISPOSABLE INCOME. A vouchure program would just be abused...

    --
    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  102. Let's Make A Deal! by Shuh · · Score: 1



    I'll give you my money, and then you take a cut, and then you give it back to me as a "voucher!" This is so cool!

  103. Re:AFV == Bad Bad Bad by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

    so you'll invariably get great songwriters starving to death while Britney and Justin sing their songs

    The effect might actually be the reverse (which would still be unfair). Many people listen to cheesy bubble-gum pop, but they don't feel proud of it. Artists who create something which seems important, insightful, or just high-class might be the ones who get the donations. Sometimes the public can be embarrassed to admit that lowbrow entertainment is their favorite.

    Most extremely, when it comes time to send in his voucher, is a man going to feel more comfortable giving it to the National Review, or to Playboy? But which magazine does he really spent more time with?

  104. SUMMARY OF EVERYTHING by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

    The proposal is not a replacement for copyright, it is an alternative. It therefore has no bearing on the GPL or any other scheme that chooses to remain in the copywright system. Both GNU/Linux and Windows copyright law is still enforceable.

    At least one solution to the problem of 'buddy systems' developing has been proposed here already, which is a $100 (or $x) registration fee. Make this yearly, or a total for however many years the AFV remains and this prevents people from giving each other money. Or rather it means that several people have to nominate you for oyu to benefit. There are still holes in this, but they are now much smaller.

    Although there have been many doubts expressed here about how many people would be willing to participate I think you might be surprised once people become generally aware of it. It is NOT like political voting - you know exactly what effect your nomination will have and you get something in return. Also it could be made simple by just adding the number / artist reference to your tax form.

    The problem of the people all picking their ONE FAVOURITE and all the money going to Britney and none to Pink, could be countered by community's of artists that arrange the division of the loot amongst themselves by some agreed method. Your less popular metalband may not compete with Korn, but the Metal Collective of half a dozen bands you've been listening to might just flatten them. Not a perfect solution - Korn might ally with Mariah Carey, but it is A solution and nothing is perfect.

    Also, it doesn't have to be run by the government, but until the revolution, it will require their support for it to be tax deductible and easy to select an artist/collective.

    Big projects like hollywood movies that require massive initial outlay will probably continue to be released under copyright for a good long time.

    This is a great idea and it deserves a bit more thought to see if it could be made to work.

    --

    Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  105. Re:AVFs market-based, good artists still make more by monkeyfamily · · Score: 1

    Oh, say - being threatened by the FBI any time you watch a video? Getting fined or even jailed for linking to de-CSS or the Diebold memos?

  106. oh. my. god. by AyeRoxor! · · Score: 1

    "I'm sure I'd use mine on MC Chris"

    I just clicked one one of the "listen" links.
    I so fucking hope you were joking.

    just...
    I so fucking hope you were joking.

  107. What's a voucher worth by Carnivorous+Carrot · · Score: 1

    What's a voucher worth? $5? $100?

    What politician will decide how much can be spent annually? Why? Of course, this will not be filled with fraud.

    And expect an entire new industry to spring up: Become your own legal religion^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmusical artist who can accept this voucher!

    And then there's the industry to train people to become their own artists. This new industry will replace training losers to be real estate salesmen, debt management counselors, and the like. Train folks on how to game the system to get that voucher for your own self, legally!

    Send only 7 easy payments of $39.95 to the address below.

    --
    "Has [being a kidnapped teenage girl, raped repeatedly for months] changed you?" - Katie Couric to Elizabeth Smart
  108. Say what? by arothmanmusic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I fail to see how this proposal affects non-label artists. What about painters? What about indie bands? What about unpublished writers? What protects them from being ripped off? Who keeps track of all of the artists in the world and routes money to them? What happens when the "$20 billion annually" is spread so thin that no one makes enough to have it be worthwhile? The proposal is laughable. If the music labels want to stop getting ripped off, they need to a) produce music that people respect enough not to steal, b) put serials on all CDs that people can register (like software) to get discounts, online chats, etc. and c) provide fair contracts to artists and fair prices to consumers so no one gets screwed.