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Dealing with Outdated Automotive Software?
Jan Hendrik Montag asks: "My car mechanics had problems to fix a problem in electronic motor management with my 14 yr old Audi. That was not too surprising. But as my mechanic consulted a Volkswagen/Audi-company, they received the answer, that my car is too old and they don't have the appropriate devices and software to read my cars' mind. I just wonder, what will happen in 20 or 30 years to then-vintage-cars from today? Shouldn't there be a necessity to declare old car-software and diagnostic devices open-source just to make sure a collector then can repair his/her car just as it is possible to repair an old car from the 60's? Or will those cars be doomed in case of failure? What would be a solution?"
It would be nice, but just because people depend on it doesn't mean that people are going to support or open source software. I'm not sure why car companies would care about their consumers enough to be any different.
There's no great secret to controlling an engine, so I don't see the point. If we want to think about this in computer terms, the engine controller is comparable to a text editor. Everyone knows what they do, there's a standard file format, no surprises. You don't like one, or the person maintaining it gives up, you use another one.
For some time now, you have been able to buy generic engine controllers which just need calibrating to work with your car's engine (I know, I work for a company who makes them). These aftermarket ones used to be pretty dumb - time, emissions legislation and cheaper microcontrollers have made a big difference to this now though. In fact, it's not inconceivable that an aftermarket one would give better performance/economy/emissions than the old one, by having more accurate calculation, better modelling of engine behaviour, etc.
Maybe there's someone who's desperate to use only original equipment, who will insist on using an engine controller with a dodgy old 8-bit micro when the cheapest Ford is coming off the production line with a 32-bit micro. I don't see the point in it myself. The engine controller doesn't change the character of the car (if calibrated to give a similar response to the old one), so replacing it shouldn't be an issue.
Grab.
Despite how well you think modern cars are built, and some of them are built very well, they simply aren't intended to last 20-30 years. If anything, they will force them out of the market by doing exactly what they did to you - stop supporting and making parts for them.
:( (If I find some I'll let you know!)
As as a person who drives a car from the 60's ('64 Rambler Classic, specifically!), I can honestly say there is no way even an advanced home mechanic can fix their modern car as easily as that car... not the least reason being that most modern cars greet you with a rats nest of plastic and wires when you open the hood.
With older cars, you open the hood to find an engine of all things! Hell, there's enough room to climb in there and sit next to it while you work!
Anywho, I've heard stories of people sucessfully plugging their generic laptops into their car's computer and getting some useful data out of it. Unfortunately I don't have any sources
And yes, I agree that releasing software for outdated cars would be a Good Thing(tm), as it would make it that much easier for the average Joe to tinker should he be so inclined. Tinkering is seldom a bad thing!
=Smidge=
Find a better mechanic. I/my wife owns an 89 BMW 325i Conv. It is way cool, pretty fast, a lot of fun and cost less than $5k in very good condition (less than 100k california miles). We found that headaches are minimized if you find someone who is *truely* an expert in your car. At first we went to a mechanic to do some really minor work and everytime we took it back, something new was broken! Bad. (Mechanics will never admit fault for something like this, even if they fix it they act like they are doing you a favor) Anyway, find a good (very good) german mechanic. I'm willing to be a good vw mechanic may suffice, given the similarity of the makes, but not sure.
14 years is not that old. These cars should still be very fixable. You don't need a new car, you need a new mechanic. Ask around.
-Sean
I just had a problem with my 1996 Cavalear. Long story short I knew it was an ignition problem so I replaced the spark plugs, then the spark plug wires. Neither of these fixed the problem and the next thing to replace was the coil pack and then the ignition module.
Since I had just replace the wires I had found the coil packs and ignition modules we mounted in the dumbest palace...on the back of the engine, above the transmission! Now I know modern cars are packing the engine into a smaller and smaller area to give more room for the people rideing in the car, but since there was a ton of space in front of the engine, where a part that will fail several times in the lifetime of the car could have been mounted, it really pissed me off.
I gave up and took it in to my mechanic and the bill was around $140 to replace the coil pack that I suspected. If I would have replaced the part it would have cost me $20!
Whenever money is involved, these companies are always inventing ways to extract as much money as they can. And they wonder why we end up trying to "cheap out" and bargan shop the hell out of them.
[End of diatribe. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...] - Larry Wall in Configure from the perl
#1: Your mechanic is full of shit. I believe current VAG dealer diagnostic tools analyze your year, and if the current ones don't, it's not like dealers just throw away older diagnotic tools.
r t DIY Fuel injection controller. There are a shipload of Audi's running this, and the mailing list is quite friendly
#2: http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/
Buy the diag tool yourself. Tell mechanic to get bent.
#3: 1989 Audi? Might not have OBD-I, and the engine controllers back then didn't have a bunch of diagnostics. Sounds like you may have a lazy mechanic who doesn't want to take the time to actually diagnose your problem instead of plugging in a connector and charging you $90.
#4: http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
Megasqui
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
Here's one from a quick google for 'audi code scanner'. It covers back to 1988.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
How likely is it that a 15 year old Audi gets great mileage and has low emissions? very likely if they have followed the maintenance schedules. most people don't and that's why their cars go to hell prematurely. My 13 yr old Mitsubishi passes the emissions tests by a wide margin.
I've owned several audis, including an '86 80 sport, a 1990 5cyl 100, and a 1995 S6. This guys website is full of useful stuff. He markets a kit for the palm pilot that should answer your needs Remember, far more energy is used, and more CO2 is produced in building a car than it will produce in its lifetime, so keeping old cars running is good for the environent!
Recently, I wanted to buy an el-cheapo mp3-cd-player for my rather new (2 years) Toyota Corolla. I had to find out that none of the models available in standard size would fit in there, and that my only option would be go buy what Toyota offers. Too bad they don't have _any_ mp3 devices available. And if so, they would not be as cheap as the ones in stores here.
:(
Needless to say, I'm pretty annoyed by that.
- Hubert
It simple really, what will become of cars from today when they become classics. They simply won't.
You see, cars like the '57 Chevy or the '68 Camero were unique, they only made so may and the ones around today were lovingly restore or maticulously cared for so that they exsist today. But it's not just that, those cars were made to last. That's why you still see a '38 DeSoto or a '42 Dodge Pick-up. It's also why you can go to a junkyard, buy and old Impala or Oldsmobile and restore it. There's parts out there and you can repair what you can't find. But, as cars went on, and companies wanted larger proffit dividens, and then came plastics...
Nowdays cars aren't built to last, well, not last lifetimes. They're built to last until the payment book is done. Sure you have exceptions like Toyota Camary's or Honda Civic's that go on and on, but there's nothing unique to these cars. Their people movers, and that's it. I for one can't really imagine taking my kid, on a warm spring day, to an autoshow just to see a bunch of '92 - '96 Tercels or '87 - '91 Sentras.
Then there's the plastics I mentioned. My last car was a '94 Chevy Cavlaier Wagon. It was mostly the same car as the '81 Chevy Celebrity, or the Oldsmobile Ferenza, or the Pontica Sunfire / J2000, or the Cadillac Cimmaron, or the Buick Skylark / Century. All of which had a nearly 15 year stint known as the General Motor's J-Body design. But it's not just GM. The Ford Taurus is the Mercury Sable, or the Ford Crown Victoria is the same as the Mercury Grand Marquee or something like that... It's not just American cars though, the Pontiac Vibe is also the same car as the Toyota Matrix... Which was the retool from the wagon variance of, you guessed it, the GM J-Body. The only diffrence between these cars is a plastic molded bummper or body panel. Strip away that and you have the same 2.2l I4 engine mounted to the same H3430 3 speed automatic front wheel drive system with front disc brake and optional rear wheel discs...
But it goes beyond that, the materials used now days aren't even designed to last that long. A friend of mine has restored a 1985 Buick LeSabre. (GM H Body I believe, same thing as the Chevy Capris Classic for those keeping score.) A problem arose from when his coolant resevoir cracked and he had to replace it. General Motors changed the design to the resivoir in 1988 to make way for a redesign of the cruise control vacume system. So the part, even as a replacment part, was discontinued in 1991. The part itself was made of a sub-quality plastic that, after about 15 years becomes hard and brittle. So you can't go to a junkyard and buy another one off another Buick as, it too, will crack and brake. In the end, his only option was to use ducktape until the whole of the container rots and he has to make another container all together.
I know I have harped on American cars alot, and I really do love them, but even the author's AUDI is not unique. Audi has for years traded engine and body parts and techniques with Volkswagon, so much so that alot of Audi's now have VW W8 engines, while VW itself builds three of it's cars on the same chassi. The Passat, New Bettle, and Jetta are, when you trear them down, all the same car...
Oh well... Hopefully tennagers won't get ahold of too many Malibus or Impalas (the old ones, not this new crap) and enough will be spared 22" wheels and hydrolics that they will still be drivable in 20 years so that when I take my kid to a car show one day I can show them that, damnit, their used to be some nice cars. Some style that wasn't just an option package, that steel was fashioned into moving elegance, and cars of this caliber should not be messed with aside from the factory design, and that one time long ago, it was just wrong for Cadillac to make a pick-up.
VAG-COM works with the older Audis going back to about 1989 or so. You need a special Y adapter to adapt the ODB-II style plug; if you have the plugs, they're two or three multicolored, 2-pin connectors, usually in the driver's side footwell or in the fusebox. 1991 was the first year in which fault codes could be stored in memory, so if your model is before that, you'll need to leave the engine running or crank it to 'generate' a code.
If your Audi is pre-1990 or so(you said 14 years yes?), run the car until the check light comes on or you see the problem; remove a spare fuse, plug the fuse into the top of the fuel pump relay for about 5 seconds and remove; the check engine light(engine block w/lightning bolt) will come on and blink a code of 4 digits, with a short pause between the digits; this will report all the codes and then repeat. Look up the codes at www.sjmautotechnik.com. Really really old Audis will either bounce the tachometer, or point it to different numbers in sequence to indicate the code.
If the problem is a no-start, you should attempt to crank the engine for 15 seconds, LEAVE the ignition ON, and then do the code retrieval.
You can also trigger an output test, which activates all the various eleectronic valves(there are many) in sequence.
If you still need more help, sign on to the 'quattro' list at www.audifans.com- but do so in a few days, the site admin had a death in the family right after we had some data loss, and things are pretty messed up unfortunately; you can't post, and archives are missing. We'll be running within a week. Google has a fair bit of our 10+ years of archives in its cache, however.
Please help metamoderate.
Hey, if you are up to it, you can build your own fuel and ignition management system. I am going to do this myself with my 65 barracuda. Here is link http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html Let me know what you think!