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Big Science has a Twenty-Year Plan

Earlier this week, Energy Secretary Spence Abraham laid out the Office of Science's 20-year plan for building and upgrading the U.S.'s "Big Science" facilities. Twenty-eight programs got the nod, in all. The top priorities -- fusion, and a massive supercomputer. Other goals on the wish list include studying dark energy, high-speed atomic-scale imaging with an electron laser, and fulfilling several particle-physics dreams, including a collider to rival CERN's LHC. Here's the press release and the full list (PDF). Your grandchildren may write school papers on the discoveries these tools will make...

18 of 275 comments (clear)

  1. How immutable are these plans? by Gyan · · Score: 0, Insightful

    What happens if Democrats assume power in 2005?

    1. Re:How immutable are these plans? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately, both stereotypes are to a large degree true. Finding politicians of either major party who are willing to champion science for its own sake and the long-term benefits isn't easy. Right-wingers do object to science that treads on their ideology (which, given the pervasiveness of both right-wing ideology and modern science, is a hell of a lot of it) and left-wingers do object to spending money on blue-sky research vs. short-term giveaways. And anti-intellectualism is always a good selling point in anyone's campaign.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:How immutable are these plans? by jmtpi · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The US has already started to build one collider to compete with the LHC at CERN and abandoned it after spending a billion or so on it. This is a wish list, not a final decision.

      Quite why anyone thinks the linac is worth building is beyond me, by the time the machine is finished the LHC will have done all the interesting work at this energy scale. Also note the comment about the world wide web being created by the high energy physics world, but without mentioning it was actually their competitor at cern who did that one.

      This is a really unimformed set of statements on high-energy particle physics which have appeared in several forms throughout this discussion. Let me clarify a couple things.

      The Next Linear Collider (NLC) is not competition for the LHC. The Superconducting Supercollider (SSC) which was cancelled here about 10 years ago was competition to the LHC.

      I'm really too young to know much about the SSC's cancellation, but I have heard older folks say that their big mistake was not putting enough money into R&D before beginning construction. (Hence expensive mistakes in design like another poster here mentioned.) Hopefully lessons have been learned from the failure of the SSC.

      Back to the SSC vs LHC vs NLC. There are two fundamentally different types of collider. Hadron machines (SSC,LHC, TeVatron @ Fermilab) collide protons against (anti)protons. Lepton machines (LEP @ CERN closed in 2000, NLC, various machines at SLAC over the years) collide electrons and positrons (aka anti-electrons).

      The hadron approach is good because a proton is 2000 times heavier than an electron. So it's much easier to get to very high energies. On the down side, protons are not point particles, but rather "bags" of 3 quarks each. So it's hard to get precision information because you don't know exactly what the initial 4-vectors of the interacting quarks were.

      Lepton collisions are clean because the electrons are point particles. But as I said, they are a lot lighter than protons. This motivates building the NLC as a linear collider as opposed to a storage ring ala SSC, TeVatron, LEP, LHC, or PEP-II (@SLAC). The energy loss from syncrotron radiation goes as the relativistic gamma to the sixth (!!) power. For a given energy, a lepton machine will have a gamma 2000 times bigger than a proton machine. And so putting really high energy electrons into a ring is very difficult because they lose so much energy.

      The general concensus among high-energy physicists is that for the field to progress both machines are necessary (LHC and Linear Collider). The LHC will (probably) find the Higgs boson and measure its mass. It may also find physics beyond the Standard Model. A lepton machine will then be necessary to do precision studies and really untangle what the LHC will (hopefully) discover.

      Having the LHC allows us to have an idea what goals the NLC should be designed for. For example, if the LHC discovers some amazing new physics at (say) 800 GeV, then this gives us information about buildng the NLC--it had better not be a 500 GeV machine.

      The big question is not whether to build the NLC--it is whether it will be here or in Europe, and how long will we have to wait.

    3. Re:How immutable are these plans? by Zeinfeld · · Score: 3, Insightful
      This is a really unimformed set of statements on high-energy particle physics which have appeared in several forms throughout this discussion. Let me clarify a couple things.

      I was a CERN fellow, how well informed do you have to be to post to slashdot.

      The Next Linear Collider (NLC) is not competition for the LHC.

      Then why is it described as such in the report?

      I'm really too young to know much about the SSC's cancellation, but I have heard older folks say that their big mistake was not putting enough money into R&D before beginning construction.

      They had many problems, one was naming the thing after Ronald Reagan while he was still living which did not exactly give the Democrats a huge incentive to fund a monument to him. The fundamental problem was that the original budget was predicated on contributions from other countries, but the US made it plain it would be a 100% US lab. The Canadians offered to provide free power if it was near the border close to their hydro-electric stations... nope gotta give the pork to Texas.

      Lack of preparation had nothing to do with the funding being cut. The problem was that the LHC was going to get there first and do the interesting physics. They had the tunnel already built.

      The hadron approach is good because a proton is 2000 times heavier than an electron. So it's much easier to get to very high energies. On the down side, protons are not point particles, but rather "bags" of 3 quarks each.

      Yeah, yeah, not knowing the distribution of the energy amongst the quarks is not a major problem if you know what you are doing. You just need to compile additional statistics to cut through the mess. At the end of the day you are going to know enough about the energy of the particles you are interested in from the calorimeter and the wire chamber. It is just a computational issue.

      The big question is not whether to build the NLC--it is whether it will be here or in Europe, and how long will we have to wait.

      The big question is whether there is a point to buiding another accelerator. I got out of the field because it was pretty clear that the LHC was the end of the road.

      The fussion types have a much better claim on any funds that might go to physics. But I don't see why physics should have a special claim, we are talking about an experiment that will cost of the order of 3 to 6 billion. There are plenty of research projects that are likely to give bigger returns.

      And don't get me started on the Web thing. If we had had anything like the funding for computer science as there was for physics we would be way ahead of where we are now. Computer science has to mostly survive on the handouts from the military program, DARPA funding has skewed the whole field towards a set of requirements that have nothing to do with reality.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
  2. But consider mthe big IF... by DynaSoar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We had one of those projects going: the Superconducting Supercollider. That went tango uniform as quick as you can say "policy shift".

    All kinds of things can be announced for all kinds of reasons. Mostly the announcements are so you can hear the politicians make announcements and see what forward thinking people they are.

    I don't even believe it when I'm told I've gotten my own grants -- not until I see the check has cleared the bank.

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
  3. A collider to rival CERN's LHC? by daveschroeder · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hmm, maybe we shouldn't have killed off the Superconducting Super Collider (SSC), after 14 miles of tunneling were already completed and two billion dollars were spent.

    The eco-dumbasses talk about it alternatively as an unnecessary geek-scientist's playground, or as a wasteful front for the military-industrial complex.

    What it would have been is a window into the most fundamental building blocks of the Universe. And now apparently we want to try again, even though we should have finished it the first time around...

  4. I'm glad about the focus by alphakappa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's heartening to note that the report gives so much importance to fundamental research unlike most of the research that happens today which is so geared towards creating marketable products or intellectual property. While the latter is also good for all, science will stagnate in the absence of fundamental research . This 20 year outlook is definitely a pat in the back for schools all around the country.

    --
    "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
  5. My Penis is Bigger Than Yours by bitsformoney · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "Big Time" projects look to me mostly like they are built to show off. The particle thingy has to be there not because there's some valuable insight to be gained, but because the US can't let Europe possibly have a bigger one.


    Same with supercomputers. Supercomputers are so 80s/90s. Decentralization is the thing of today, but, say, creating a grid network of 10,000 computers is not so easy to compare to some Japanese mega-thingie.


    I sometimes wonder, if you took just 0.1% of that money and gave it to a random bunch of OSS developers, how much progress would come out of that.

    --
    This comment is printed on 100% recycled electrons.
    1. Re:My Penis is Bigger Than Yours by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Frankly if they spent a fraction of that amount on Science Education we would be getting somewhere too. Or combine OSS and Science Education to develop a set of textbooks that don't need to be re-purchased every year because the publisher re-orders the chapters.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    2. Re:My Penis is Bigger Than Yours by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Big Time" projects look to me mostly like they are built to show off. The particle thingy has to be there not because there's some valuable insight to be gained, but because the US can't let Europe possibly have a bigger one.

      Yes, its obvious that there is nothing to be gained from more powerful experiments into the fundamental nature of matter and energy. All of our theories are perfect and explain everything. Why research technologies which could unlock powerful new energy sources with oil being depleted and nuclear power is dirty fission instead of fusion? And why look for ways to take humanity to the stars when the money could be spent on creating yet another *nix window manager or by improving python by changing it to use periods instead of spaces. Good grief.

      Same with supercomputers. Supercomputers are so 80s/90s. Decentralization is the thing of today, but, say, creating a grid network of 10,000 computers is not so easy to compare to some Japanese mega-thingie.

      Real supercomputers can tackle problems that even massive clusters won't be able to practically solve. Just because clusters or mpp machines are trendy doesn't mean that they are a universal super tool. You've also apparently overlooked the fact that the "Japanese mega-thingie" is several times more powerful than anything the US has, which means there are some types of problems that only they can solve in a useful amount of time. Well, at least you stand a small chance to go down in history on future "missed it by a mile" lists...

      I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.
      (Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.)

      Supercomputers are so 80s/90s. Decentralization is the thing of today,
      (bitsformoney (514101), shortsighted commentator, Slashdot, 2003)

      I sometimes wonder, if you took just 0.1% of that money and gave it to a random bunch of OSS developers, how much progress would come out of that.


      You would get another: window manager|scripting language|shell|security tool. Certainly nothing to take humanity to the stars, although if you keep tossing around your ideas you stand a chance of getting mooned.

  6. What about Neuro Science? by cookie_cutter · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I'm disappointed to see a lack of any brain research in the list, considering how beneficial applications of neuroscience could be, and how much the field is maturing.

    Why they would ignore such a field, I can only speculate: perhaps there is too much of a stigma of "mind altering" to neuroscience (though I do recall Bush senior declaring the 1990's to be the decade of the brain). Or perhaps the present administration has a vested interest in keeping the populous away from mind improving developments. Or perhaps they just don't think it's necessary; after all, you don't have to be a genius to become president these days.

  7. Grandchildren by Salamander · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Your grandchildren may write school papers on the discoveries these tools will make...

    Not likely. I'm all for research, but most of the stuff on this list is "big science" only in terms of the money that will be spent, not the knowledge that will be gained. There's tons of biotech, materials-science, computing, optics, and other research that would be more rewarding. The most appalling omission is that the Department of Energy doesn't seem to think that battery technology - the thing holding back deployment of many other technologies - deserves even one project. Nothing on portable fuel cells, microturbines, biodiesel, wave power, or other energy-related technologies either, except fusion. What is the Department of Energy thinking?

    There might be a few things in there to write papers about, but if we spend all of the money to fund these projects there won't be any left over for schools...or paper, for that matter. The only way my grandchildren will be writing papers on this stuff is if I or my children move somewhere with a sane science policy.

    --
    Slashdot - News for Herds. Stuff that Splatters.
  8. It's about effing time... by snilloc · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ... the DOE started pouring some serious cash into fusion research.

    We should have been going balls to the wall on fusion since the energy crisis... of the SEVENTIES! Maybe we wouldn't have had it by now, but maybe it would be a lot closer.

    Academics in the 50's (!!!) were writing about how US dependence on foreign oil (specifically Persian Gulf/Arabian oil) was just asking for trouble. Then OPEC bites us in the ass. We freak out a bit (price controls, wear more sweaters), but when the "crisis" (largely self-inflicted; read some economics books) abates, we go back to business as usual, just waiting for our dependence on foreign oil to bite us in the ass again... as it has several times to varying degrees.

  9. Re:Didn't the Soviets and Red Chinese Try This? by jstarr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A 20 year plan for facility development is different than the 5 year plans the Soviets were doing. On one hand are developments that will take many years to bring up to operational status and then have many years of fruitful use, and on the other we have long range determinations of how many razors will be needed. Projects can be and should be planned for the long haul; budgets can rarely be predicted beyond a month, let alone a year. Much of the Soviet 5 years plans were not long-term projects, but simply very long range budgeting.

    That aside, the Soviets were fairly successful when it came to large scale projects. Granted, when it came to Soviet construction projects, especially under Stalin, the policy was typically placing a small army of poorly trained and poorly equipped men together and telling them to work or get shot, but the projects were still eventually completed. However, when skilled scientists and engineers were in charge and given adequate resources, the Soviets were able to create both atomic and fusion bombs as well as a highly competitive space program.

    [For more information, as well as an analysis of the long-term decline of Soviet science and engineering, I can recommend "The Ghost of the Executed Engineer" by Loren Graham.]

    Projects, as opposed to budgets, are more resilient to daily fluctuations and can be quite useful.

    Now, whether the government should be doing 'big science' at all is a different argument.

  10. Re:Many different promising technologies... by jgardn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Supercomputers are going to be a critical component of many scientific advances in the next hundred years.

    If you haven't noticed, professors and researchers are moving away from scribbling equations on notepads and hoping they remembered to carry the '1' to trying out their theories in a numerical environment and seeing how close it matches reality.

    They are also using supercomputers to solve with the brute-force method. What used to take hundreds of grad students slaving away for decades now takes a couple of clicks on a keyboard because of brute force.

    One of the limiting factors to particle accelerators is the rate at which they can model the results that they read and determine if it is interesting or not and therefore worthy to store in the database. Having really big iron is a critical component of all particle acceleration and collision detection equipment.

    Not only that, but perhaps we can use big iron to help solve complicated problems where we understand the theory very well already. Something like sustainable fusion reactions comes to mind.

    --
    The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
  11. Little Science by ndavidg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why build another supercollider when there is one in Europe? What a waste of money!

    Little Science could have a much grander impact. Here are some worthwhile projects the DOE could pursue:

    1. Microbiology research for dissolving nuclear waste.
    2. Fuel Cells
    3. Engineering atoms/molecules using a small Linux cluster for the purpose of creating more lightweight, durable materials. The applications range from space travel to camping gear.
    4. Building the proton computer and loading an older version of Slackware on it. By the time this is built, you won't want to put Windows on the computer, since the OS will be so bloated it would take too long to download a page with java applets.

  12. Nanoassemblers? by Rxke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What amazes me is that there is no talk of nanoassembly. It is now widely accepted that it would be possible to come up with the first nano self-assembler within about ten years, given enough funding and research. google for primitive nanofactory design study big peer-reviewed (84 pages) white paper that'll blow yer socks off...

  13. Re:This is very similar to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Not to choose sides and call names... but, perhaps OSS needs a reinventing of the wheel to clear the hurdle (read: MS). No, I have no specific things to change, if I did, I would be part of this growth effort.

    Note, as it is, I have no problem with nix. But, nothing is perfect and everything can be better. Just think the contributions that could come from reinventing as they usually produce slick stuff in the past.