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Utah Cities To Provide High-Speed Net Access

Instarx writes "The New York Times reports that Salt Lake City and other Utah cities plan to install an ultrahigh-speed optical network as a public utility project starting next year. The network would provide internet access [for about $28 per month] in direct competition to slower commercial offerings. The network would be capable of delivering data over the Internet to homes and businesses at speeds 100 times faster than current commercial residential offerings. It would also offer digital television and telephone services through the Internet."

23 of 486 comments (clear)

  1. Registration-Free Link by akedia · · Score: 5, Informative
  2. fat pipe, please by Fux+the+Penguin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The article points to the sluggish economy as a hindrance to this sort of deployment in Utah, as well as other municipalities, but I think it may actually help the project.

    When you look at the vendors, their pricing has just dropped because they are hungry. So, you can get incredible pricing for the equipment, the electronics, the fiber, all the things you need. Because the economy's down, interest rates are down, so that's going to help financing.

    And because they don't just have a free flow of cash in the telecom world, there are companies that are very interested because they don't have the capital riding on somebody else's network. You take that all together and the timing actually is pretty darn good.

    As far as municipal involvement in this, the genie is out of the bottle in my opinion. Municipalities across the country are either going to do the retail or the wholesale, but they're going to do something. And they're not satisfied to just sit and wait when an incumbent or some private sector company decides that they're big enough and it's worth their while to come in to build the networks.

    1. Re:fat pipe, please by JBatch · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is only half about a faster connection. The residents of Utah are so sick of the aboslutely aweful customer service provided by the only two substantial high-speed(and telecom) providers in the area that we want another option.* A smaller city in the area has recently done this same thing and it has been an overwhelming success. *I realize public utilites don't always have the best customer service either, but at least you could switch everytime one or another provider pissed you off so you can feel better about your situtaion.

    2. Re:fat pipe, please by TopShelf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If there aren't private companies offering services, why is the government stepping in?

      To provide a public good that is in the best long term interests of the community. Businesses likely wouldn't undertake such an endeavor because once the competition comes in, it wouldn't make the investment worthwhile. What the government is doing here is to provide infrastructure for many companies to come in and offer services, which will not only stimulate economic activity but also help develop the area's human capital...

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    3. Re:fat pipe, please by Beatbyte · · Score: 4, Insightful

      telephony is going to be on the fiber optics. and the internet, is just as, if not more needed than phones for a lot of people. and the demand is growing.

      compare the number of e-mails, web site visits, IM's you do a day compared to the number of phone calls.

    4. Re:fat pipe, please by Catbeller · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "When the demand is more than phones, then work on it. Do not try and predict demand."

      The demand is obviously being constricted by the dearth of cheap pipes. If we wait for the "demand" to grow enough to justify private investment in FO to the home, it will never happen. The present setup is just dandy for whomever is selling pathetic connectivity. They will not roll out replacements for their current cash cows.

      Think of it this way. Pretend that, instead of bandwidth, the "scarcity" is water. An imperfect analogy, 'cause water is finite and bandwidth is infinite... though the difference actually helps the argument.

      Anyway. Pretend that we all lived in a area with no water lines, 20 years ago. People got their water from wells, and toted the water to their homes on their shoulders. Not a scarcity situation, for people got all the water they could drink.

      Now pretend that someone invented a water pipe that piggybacked on existing equipment, and that water was found to be a resource that could simply be manufactured and shipped. People discover that they can use water not jusut for drinking, but for cooking.

      Then someone discovers that they can build giant sluices that enable the supply to be increased twenty-fold to each customer. But, instead of the government building the infrastructure, a hundred thousand businesses compete to supply the water using products from vendors who try to maximize profit.

      Imagine that the orignal well owners insist on covering their original invenstments + maintenance + cash to buy lots of other companies.

      A state of balance eventually occurs when the businesses find their sweet spot financially. Instead of gallons of water per minute, people pay a reasonable price for a trickle of water, enough to wash their face and take the occasional shower. They don't NEED all that water, really. And who wants to put all the pipe companies out of business?

      An artificial scarcity is maintained, with the vendors of the pipes and the providers of the water maximizing what profits they can.

      Now, what if the government simply had built the pipes and the water could go sluicing down the pipes for practically nothing? Suppose the government, as the main supplier, could dictate terms to the piper manufacturers, forcing the equipment prices down?

      One could say that the government wasn't necessary to supply water, because the trickle was enough, and the businesses needed to make a decent profit.

      But who decided that? The businesses. Who speaks up for the consumer of water? The government, which they own.

      The government could have supplied the water from the beginning, at orders of magnitude lower cost.

      If you don't think this is possible, I point you to municipal water supplies in the real world. If they had been provided by the free market, we'd be metering water like champagne.

    5. Re:fat pipe, please by GoofyBoy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >The demand is obviously being constricted by the dearth of cheap pipes.

      No, its not obvious.

      Its hard to find justification for HDTV and this is at minimum 5 times more bandwidth than that.

      > If we wait for the "demand" to grow enough to justify private investment in FO to the home, it will never happen.

      And sometimes it shouldn't happen. But how do we know? Should we spend a huge amount everytime something comes up that perhaps might work out in the future?

      >The present setup is just dandy for whomever is selling pathetic connectivity. They will not roll out replacements for their current cash cows.

      Wrong, they did. Before the only thing available was dial-up. Then cable/telephone companies built the infrastructure for broadband.

      >Think of it this way. Pretend that, instead of bandwidth, the "scarcity" is water. An imperfect analogy, 'cause water is finite and bandwidth is infinite... though the difference actually helps the argument.

      Actually the big thing is that water is needed for the basics of life. Broadband isn't. You shut off water to a city, it become a emergency. With broadband, it might get reported in the local newspaper.

      A better analogy is resturants. I don't need to go out and eat but its very nice when I do. Do you think its the function of the city to build and operate the biggest resturant in the state when there are multiple resturants already? Do you think that is wise use of money when they have to do road repairs?

      >If they had been provided by the free market, we'd be metering water like champagne

      Like electricity, gasoline, phone lines and garbage collection? They do cost, but not at huge insane prices.

      --
      The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
    6. Re:fat pipe, please by leshert · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We're just on the cusp of broadband not being a luxury.

      Do you consider it a luxury to have electricity and running water? My grandparents considered it so up until the mid-twentieth century, and if yours did not, you don't have to go back more than a generation to find ancestors who did.

  3. Can we ever have too much Capacity? by ericspinder · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The speeds to be provided "are way more than what most consumers need in their home," Mr. Fenn said, adding, "Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?" As I see it, the project is more like building an 8 lane bridge when a 4 lane will do just fine. Of course, I think Salt Lake is very very wise for making the decision to do it. Getting everything on one large "pipe" is what most cable companies are already planning. Hell if telephone companies thought that they could push TV over twisted pair they would be talking about it too. A few "watchdog" groups are a little worried about the spending, and I don't blame them, exp after the tech boom bubble burst. However, I am not sure of the price of rolled fiber cable, but I think it's a safe bet that it's better than it was 3 years ago.

    --
    The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
    1. Re:Can we ever have too much Capacity? by Krondor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      NO! We can never have too much Capacity! This is obviously a really expensive project to undertake, and when you design something for the public with tax dollars you want it to last a LONG TIME. When do you think they'll get the millage passed to rebuild it for more capacity later.

      Look how the Internet is growing, it's only a matter of time before multimedia content pushes the limits of even modern broadband setups. They are building capacity for the future, as well as for increased longterm demand.

      Look at the rest of the industry, are you hard drives too fast, is your printer too fast, can you ever be too fast (besides playing old games and some emulators)?

  4. Too little too late? by devphaeton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Perhaps Utah is different from where i live...

    But as a d00d working in an ISP that offers both high-speed wDSL and dialup, i say they missed the mark by about 5 years.

    Sure there are geeks like us that demand high-speed inet, but for the most part, i see people leaving high-speed in droves to go back to dialup.

    It appears that even though broadband is cheaper than it has ever been, there are enough people still trying to justify the cost to check their email a few times a week.

    The Internet Craze Is Over(tm).

    --


    do() || do_not(); // try();
    1. Re:Too little too late? by AvantLegion · · Score: 4, Funny
      >> I'm on the verge of returning to dial-up. Two reasons. #1 I don't have the time to goof off online and #2 my local cable company is a monopolistic blood sucking leech.

      You got Comcast too??

  5. Re:95 Mb downstream, 56K upstream? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    > upstream bandwidth

    Upstream? Now that's just silly. Obviously, everyone only *downloads*, so uploading isn't an issue. A downloads from B, B downloads from C, and C downloads from A. It all works out in a beautiful Escher-esque way, each node feeding off of each other, downhill both ways...

  6. Should the government really be providing this? by TWX · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is the job of the government to provide high speed internet service to homes? As much as I like the sound of inexpensive bandwidth, if it's directly the government's service, there is a large potential for filtering or other restrictions on access, and a much greater threat for logging one's activities. I do not like this idea.

    The government does not provide phone infrastructure, it instead regulates the companies that provide telephone service. I wouldn't want my telephone, television, newspaper, radio, or internet access to come from one extremely powerful group who would have a significant interest in manipulating information for their own benefit.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    1. Re:Should the government really be providing this? by penguin7of9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is the job of the government to provide high speed internet service to homes?

      The job of the government is to provide whatever we, the people, want it to provide. It's quite common to task governments with running businesses when the private sector has failed to deliver.

      if it's directly the government's service, there is a large potential for filtering or other restrictions on access, and a much greater threat for logging one's activities. I do not like this idea.

      Utah has the kind of government its voters elected. I don't like that government, you may not like it, but they do. As long as it's within the Constitution, they are free to do that.

      I wouldn't want my telephone, television, newspaper, radio, or internet access to come from one extremely powerful group who would have a significant interest in manipulating information for their own benefit.

      Well, that's exactly what you are getting when you leave those things to big businesses. Government-run services are preferable in my opinion. In fact, "government run" doesn't mean "centralized"--this kind of effort is an excellent candidate for being run at a city/town level.

      I prefer government-run to big-business-run. At least governments are accountable to voters. The best situation is, of course, to have lots of little, independent companies. But that isn't always achievable.

  7. Most telling part of the article by GoofyBoy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The costs are substantial. Mr. Morris said Utopia would spend about $1,100 a home to run the fiber network by each house in the 18 cities involved, and an additional $1,400 for each home that decided to be connected.

    What would you personally do with $1100 dollars? Would you spend it so you can have the potential of spending another $1400 and monthly fees to get more bandwidth than you would ever need right now?

    Now how about enforcing that on every homeowner in your city?

    --
    The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
  8. Development by DarkBlackFox · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From the article:

    Jerry Fenn, the president of the Utah division of Qwest, the regional telephone company here that provides its own high-speed Internet access, said there were few uses yet for the network Utopia plans to deliver.

    The speeds to be provided "are way more than what most consumers need in their home," Mr. Fenn said, adding, "Why provide a Rolls-Royce when a Chevrolet will do?"


    This is exactly the line of thinking that prevents projects like this from implementation all accross the country. Just because "it's more than we need" right now does not mean it won't be down the road. It's the chicken and egg situation of the tech sector- no one will build it until there is a need, but there will not be a need unless it's there for people to develop uses on. Sort of ironic coming from a society which prides itself in gas gussling SUVs and exhorbitant homes.

    Even though I live on the other side of the country, I hope this goes through, if not for the geeks of Utah, but for the hopes that municipal (read not controlled by draconian corporations) communications infrastructure can be rolled out in other places too.

  9. Kinda funny to see this in the news... by Chibi+Merrow · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work for the Local Government in Lafayette, Louisiana and we've been rolling out fiber for years now all over the city... Businesses and residents can buy access through numerous resellers which all specialize in different things... Including one or two that specialize in delivering high-speed wireless access to your house.
    Of course LARGE cities end up in the news for mentioning they'll be rolling out fiber someday now, while us smaller cities that have had a fiber network for a couple years never get mentioned. :)

    --
    Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
    Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
  10. Re:Will they censor in the name of community mores by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ummm.... a small percentage of people here feel the need to pay some other company, most definatly NOT blockbuster, to edit out the "bad stuff" for them...

    For the rest of us, there's nobody telling us that we can't go pick up a move that's rated "R" if we want to, or for that matter go to an adult video store with "XXX" videos, or get them on pay-per=view, or whatever... Sure, they've tried..but failed, since the majority of people figured out that it was a stupid idea to begin with.

    So I can pretty confidently say that they won't try to force a filter onto people, we're not talking about China here!

    I'll be the first to tell you that Utah has some oddities...especially when it comes to alcohol laws. But if you haven't lived here, (and I have, my entire 27 years), then forgive me for being blunt, but you don't have a clue.

  11. Headline Correction by TrollBridge · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That should read "Utah Taxpayers To Provide High-Speed Access".

    --
    There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
  12. Public Works and Utilities by *weasel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I personally think this is the appopriate way to move forward with public infrastructure. The community pools together resources from taxes to pay for its own infrastructure - and then allow service providers to pay for access (to help defray up-front infrastructure costs) and actually compete for consumer dollars.

    Create a municipal digital network, and allow cable/telecom companies to actually compete. If anything, people should have learned their lesson -- when Comcast offers to build your infrastructure 'for free', its monopoly is going to cost more than the upfront cost to have done it publicly.

    Similarly with power lines and water/sewer. There is a basic conflict of interest between a corporations who are focused on profit above all else, and the public good which is focused on dependability and quality above all else. for example: consider the power transmission infrastructure.

    sure, if the consumer cares about quality and dependability, the free-market should bear out those providers who manage such standards. However, the shared infrastruture -punishes- companies who invest (all its competitors benefit from the increased quality, only the investor takes the financial hit and then has to charge -more-, pricing itself out of the game).

    The logical step is simply taking jurisdiction of the local lines back on the local level, and the long-haul lines on the federal level (think US highway/road system).

    it's not like our infrastructure couldn't use a nice big upgrade anyway. and the telecom industry could certainly benefit from some public works projects to bid on.

    --
    // "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
  13. Is the tide turning? by release7 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Have we finally had our fill of the nonsensical "greed is good" and "government is evil" mantras? Did it take the recent corporate scandals to help us come to our senses on the issue of public vs. private?

    Perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part. Personally, I don't place myself in either camp. It all depends on the product being produces. Do I want a for-profit company making decisions about my medical coverage? Hell no! Do I want the government making my car? Of course not!

    In this case, it only makes sense that a critical infrastructure like Internet service be provided by the state. Charging me $50/month for my broadband connection seems ridiculously high. Either the the cable company is terribly inefficient or they will be making money hand over fist far into the future.

    We all know companies set prices where they will make the most profit, the public be damned, with no obligation to social justice issues. They don't care if nearly 33% of the population can't aford to shell out $50/month for broadband. All that matters to them is that it will make them more money if they gouge those who can afford to pay and leave lower income folks out in the cold.

    --

    <a href="http://www.joblessjimmy.com">Work is dumb and so is Jobless Jimmy.</a>

  14. Been there, done that... by H0ek · · Score: 4, Informative
    As a resident of Spanish Fork, Utah, I have already been getting cable Internet service for over a year now. Up to that point, I had been bugging AT&T and Qwest to get either cable or DSL to my house, to no avail. As soon as the city of Spanish Fork got the cable installed to my house, I cancelled all the other services and stuck with the city.

    There are some minor problems. Technically, the staff of the city network need to gain a little experience. But overall, it has been a pleasant experience and I recommend it to everyone else.

    It's about time the rest of the state catches up to us. Heck, we're just a little ol' cowboy town that barely knows how to find the 'on' button for our com-poot-urs.

    --
    H0ek
    Think you're smart? Prove you've got brains!