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Dell To Techs: Don't Help Customers Remove Spyware
Alien54 writes "Well, more exactly, be advised that if you are giving a Dell for Xmas, not only will it probably come preloaded with spyware, but their tech support lines will refuse to tell users how to remove it, and will not give people advice on where to find some good tools to remove it. As seen in the latest newsletter from SpyWareInfo, Dell sent an internal memo to its tech support minions which says in part: 'NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.' This means we do not take callers to download.com or doxdesk.com, nor do we recommend spyware removal programs, nor do we advise callers on the use of spyware removal programs. This includes using phrases "We don't support the removal of spyware, but I use..."'" (Read on below.Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT by T : And for an update, too.)
"Now isn't that just nifty. Several folks in the antispyware/antivirus community have signed an open letter to Dell Inc. asking them to retract this possibly foolish and misguided policy. That letter is located at here." Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT Mike Healan, editor of spywareinfo.com, writes "The original posting is misleading.
Dell is absolutely not installing or preinstalling spyware and the
headline gives the impression that it is."
That excerpt from the memo says no such thing.
What it says is Dell are for some reason now very aware that they're at risk of getting sued if they advise people to do thinks that violate somebody's EULA.
fortune -o
At the small computer shop I run, we're making quite a bit of money these days cleaning off spyware from computers. Everyone has it, and now that it's getting more publicity, everyone wants to get rid of it. When people suddenly realize that their computer actually *is* slower than when they got it, they want it fixed, rather than buying a new one. Which is fine by us. Spyware removal is pure labor. Download AdAware and Spybot, hit it with a double whammy and it's amazing how much smoother older systems run. Viruses used to be the big money makers. Not anymore. So all you Dell customers out there....we'd be happy to help you clean off your system ;)
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
This is a week old news item. The discussion on the security forum of Dslreports brought up some good points. (See this post.)
What happens if the user hoses a system using one of the tools? HijackThis will allow you to 'fix' items that shouldn't be fixed. Spybot can do the same. In my opinion, a spyware killer in a novice's hands can be as damaging as some spyware.
Dell is also covering themselves against lawsuits, as the article pointed out. This should ultimately keep the prices down anyway. Come on folks- Dell support has ceased to be good. You buy a dell for a good price on a great computer, and then you hit up your neighborhood geek if you mess something up.
On a different topic, I wonder just what preinstalled spyware the article was talking about?
-Ryan
AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
Comcast does the same thing. Their software comes preloaded with spyware. Broadjump, I think it's called. It's been a while, but when I worked for them, we were not allowed to say anything regarding spyware or spyware removing, either. I find it quite amusing.
Having lived in the same city as Dell (in fact my church took over the building that used to house Michael Dell's synagogue...) for 10 years, and having known countless people who worked at Dell, and having worked (as a contractor) at Dell myself, I can confidentaly say there is likely one thing and one thing only going on here.
Dell is a leader in a very low margin business. They are virtually masterful at cutting costs. Their corporate buildings are made of prefab concrete, somewhere between ugly warehouse and office building, but just nice enough looking to be presentable and not look especially cheap. They expect their employees to work 60 hours a week and PRODUCE. Yet, they don't pay their employees a whole lot. They are the only major employer in the State of Texas, as far as I know, that has a policy of not paying out vacation time when you stop working there. When I worked there years and years ago, one of my duties was to order office supplies. The basic ball point pens were 3 cents each (due to a special deal with a supplier, I believe), and I was instructed not to order anything other than basic pens without a good reason. Dell also hires virtually all its workers as contractors first; if they are good enough, they may be hired on, but if not, there are no qualms about letting you go.
Fundamentally, if there is one characteristic that describes Dell, it's that they're cheap, cheap, CHEAP.
So, unless there is some evidence to support a different viewpoint, I'm quite certain that Dell is doing this only because they don't want those people to screw up their systems and call tech support back begging for help. Because that would cost more money.
And, to be fair, it's not as if Dell owes their customer help with some problem that is not Dell's fault anyway. If they did offer support for things like that, it might entice people to buy their products, but it would be just a perk.
Dell is selling you a computer with spyware PRE-INSTALLED
Says who??? The only place it says that is in the write-up submitted to Slashdot. Let's have a look at what spywareinfo has to say...
If you or a family member receive a Dell PC as a gift this Christmas, you may be in for a surprise, if it becomes infected with spyware.
So it sounds like just what the parent of your post claimed; they simply won't help you remove the crap you put on yourself. Try to keep your facts straight next time instead of jumping to unwarranted conclusions. Also, use that advice for all your life's endeavors.
In the open letter from the anti-spyware community, they say a representative from Dell informed them the response would be: "Call your ISP."
I work for tech support for a major US DSL provider, and we're not allowed to remove spyware...we are supposed to refer the customer to their manufacturer. We are not even allowed to recommend AdAware or Spybot S&D to a customer...do these companies even talk to each other about anything? Nobody seems to want to take responsibility for helping users rid themselves of this garbage.
It's very simple, really. They have to pay my fee. It usually involves dinner (good food, what my dearly departed Great Depression-survivor grandma used to call "Reagan food,") gas money, and, in the case of my attorney friend whose machine I built for him, free legal advice. Absent those things, well, sorry, I just don't know anything about that problem.
Just to clarify, the posting for this story is misleading and incorrect. Dell is NOT bundling spyware. Whoever posted it didn't RTFA. I should know, I wrote that article. I've asked Timothy to update the headline.
FYI, you don't know how beautiful a feeling it is to have your site on the front page of Slashdot, AND have mod points at the same time. I was soooooo tempted......
Mike Healan
Editor
www.spywareinfo.com
Only on
Some of the most insidious spyware that people pick up in their day to day work on the internet has the potential to completely disable internet access using Internet Explorer if it is removed from the system.
Now, I'm not advocating spy-ware, or suggesting that these programs are at all righteous--the developers of that software should be hanged--but it doesn't change the fact that if a company like Dell were to recommend that their users download and install something like Adaware they are getting themselves into a whole mess of follow up problems with inept users.
Any software that can potentially shut down the browser that the vast majority of non-saavy computer users employ everyday probably shouldn't be endorsed by a company like Dell... they would be creating a ton of work for themselves trying to explain which pieces of spy-ware should be removed and quarantined, and which should be dealt with by other means. Also, once you've explained what should be removed, then you have to deal with how to remove the spy-ware that Adaware shouldn't touch. We're talking about lots of man hours, and educational phone calls with inept users.
I think we can all agree that it isn't Dell's job to educate every user that owns a Dell on how they should remove spyware that is potentially going to comprimise their internet access through IE. Most people are just incapable of that level of skill anyway. I know I wouldn't want to walk a sixty year old grandma through all that over the phone.
Let's be realistic.
"We're gonna need a bigger boat." - Jaws
Amen! I'd like to kick the ass of whoever thought of the nonstandard power supply pinout on Dell and other big cheapass OEMs. Especially when it looks just like a real ATX connector.
Anyway, to continue this offtopic post, here's what I did last time I needed to replace a motherboard in a big-name OEM computer -- a Compaq. Unplug the power supply from everything. Use the ATX power pinout as a reference and find pin 14. It's usually the green wire, but don't trust the colors. Stick one end of a straightened paperclip into pin 14, and stick the other end into any of the ground pins. Now plug in the power supply, make sure the switch on the back is turned on if it has one, and use a multimeter to see if it's standard ATX or some proprietary crap. Surprisingly, my friend's Compaq had a power supply and mobo with a standard ATX pinout. If you find yourself with a nonstandard power supply, either rewire it or get a new one. And don't ever expect tech support from the OEM again.
It's an operating system, not a religion.
probably to keep Gator and its ilk from suing the pants off of them
Gator got pissed that people were calling their product spyware, and instead of changing their product, they changed its name.
Gator is now known as Claria.
Tell a friend.
Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
Here's how Dell support works:
If you have a Latitude or an Optiplex you get a much better support experience because these are their high-end business models. Most of my Dell (well when they didnt ship my phone call out to india) support is pretty good because we have a business account and all the fun extended warranty stuff that forces them to kiss our ass.
The home user (Inspiron owners, etc) get the bottom of the barrel support designed to make you jump through every hoop to save money on replacement parts and to deal with the clueless. When I call from work I just say "Yeah this CDROM died, can I get one tomorrow" and we do some chit-chat while he fills in the fields on his computer screen. The next day the drive is here. Trust me, that's not the residential experience at all.
I hope I don't sound like a troll... but it's fairly easy to read ntfs from DOS... it would naive to think he meant DOS 6.2 or something...
Look at www.ntfs.com, they offer a DOS boot disk capable of reading NTFS partitions, for free-as-in-beer
I work tech support, and we used to recommend ad-aware all the time. Then we started noticing it botching removals left and right, leaving systems worse off than they were before. The new policy is "There's a product called ad-aware you could try. Use it at your own risk." It's completely understandable for Dell to not allow their techs to even say that, because as anyone who has ever worked tech support will tell you, users do not understand the concept of cause and effect, and they certainly don't listen. Every now and then, one of our techs will accidentally mention ad-aware or something like it in a context that doesn't strongly imply that using it is dangerous. Usually nothing happens. One guy got unlucky, and the user's hard drive crashed the next day. We made him do the data recovery anyway, since from the perspective of the user, it was his fault, and it's difficult to protect him when he recommended a product that's known to occasionally screw up systems. If their hard drive had crashed after he recommended something on the okay list, we'd have backed him up.
The critical thing to remember is that users have a tendency to be paranoid, stupid, and dishonest as long as they're on the phone with tech support. You can save yourself a world of pain by not giving them any excuse to blame their mistakes on you. Maybe it's not nice that Dell won't help these people, but it's good business sense.
Note: I am not saying that ad-aware or any other anti-spyware program is bug-ridden and dangerous by itself. What I'm referring to is the nasty habit of spyware to be designed in such a way as to make it very difficult to completely remove, and incomplete removal results in Bad Things happening. This is why if someone has spyware that won't uninstall, we take them through manual removal. It may be tedious, but we know it works. Since we have documentation for that, the user can't blame us if they screw it up.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
I concur. One of the common "outs" as a technician we had (to decrease call time, increase volume) was to goad the customer into saying "Yes, I installed _anything_" at which point the phone call could be terminated with "Well, sir/ma'am, the problem could be with the software you installed. You will need to uninstall the software and please call back if the problem continues. Thankyouforcalling*click*". Another good one was virii. "Sir/ma'am, we recommend the use of antivirus software and you should do some research to determine which software package is best for your needs. I cannot assist you in backing up your data, but I'd be happy to walk you through a reformat/reinstall of the Operating System which will result in total data loss. No? Thankyouforcalling*click*".
I found that being in tech support which only used call time and volume as metrics resulted in a two very specific kinds of persons being "bred" to thrive in such an environment: Clever, stinking little boggies (see Bored of the Rings) whose main goal is to find the most amazing way to turn a typical "real support" issue into a support boundary call (i.e. assholes), and clueless script readers who offer absolutely no help other than what they can read and have customers hang up on them. The "good" techs end up becoming disgusted, jaded, and quit or are fired for not meeting metrics.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai