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Canadian Supreme Court To Define ISP Role

Posted by Hemos on from the the-battle-royale dept.

Ubergrendle writes "The CBC is reporting that the Canadian Supreme Court is hearing a case regarding copyright royalties and the responsibilities of ISPs both here and abroad. From the article: 'The people who represent Canadian artists say everyone who has a hand in transmitting recorded music is liable. "Creative people should be compensated for the use and exploitation of their music," said Paul Spurgeon, general counsel for the Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada. "We're obviously in a struggle right now trying to figure out the best techniques to ensure that they are compensated appropriately.'" This follows on the heels of the Canadian music industry asking that this case be heard. Given the trade relations, this case should have consequences far outside of Canada proper.

20 of 240 comments (clear)

  1. How broad? by rebeka+thomas · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The people who represent Canadian artists say everyone who has a hand in transmitting recorded music is liable.

    That's the person who copies it, whoever writes the software that copies it (whether p2p, ftp, samba, http), the person who pays for net access, the person who owns the phoneline or cable connection, the ISP, the ISPs between ISPs, the receiving ISP, and all those people again on the receiving end.

    Wonder if they truly think about this. the RIAA and their equivalents worldwide can't all be so insanely silly and see that their distribution methods are so outdated that fewer and fewer people are using them. Could they?

    --
    RST
    1. Re:How broad? by musikit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      although i see what your saying what i believe they are "trying" to do is define a set of rules that canadian ISPs have to follow in order to be an ISP. I.E. every open socket's communication must be tracable from start to finish. that's to say that if you live in canada and you use your webbrowser to surf goatse then they will have enough log information to say to the US/canadian gov "Yup John Die at 123 Street did request that page at 1:13 am on JAn 1st 2004"

      IANAIA (ISP Admin) but is it possible to open an ISP is the US/canada with tracability? i.e. keep no logs at all? so if the govs were ever to come and ask for logs you would just give them a 0 byte length file names traffic.log? i donno. but i'd pay an extra $20 a month for an ISP that did do that.

      IF ANYONE WITH MONEY IS READING THIS! NEW BUSINESS IDEA

      Anoynmous ISP: the ISP for those of you that want to keep yourself anonymous.

    2. Re:How broad? by Mr_Silver · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Wonder if they truly think about this. the RIAA and their equivalents worldwide can't all be so insanely silly and see that their distribution methods are so outdated that fewer and fewer people are using them. Could they?

      Of course they're not silly and yes they know their distribution method is outdated.

      But it's easier to try and kill off the alternatives than it is to change what has been your business model for the last 50+ years.

      To be honest, even if the price of songs was brought down to a sensible level and if you could bundle and you didn't have DRM - you would still see mass piracy. It happened back in the days when ZX Spectrum games were less than two pounds (3 dollars) and it will continue.

      You can't beat free. Even if people waste 2 hours getting something for free, they won't consider that time expended to be worth anything - rather than they saved x pounds/dollars.

      --
      Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
    3. Re:How broad? by mwood · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've toyed with the idea of setting up an ISP which would deliberately seek to be classified as a common carrier, precisely so that the rules are already spelled out and said ISP is *not allowed* to monitor its customers' traffic unless specifically ordered to by a judge. You have to keep plenty of logs on your service itself, but customers' business is (usually) theirs alone.

      It's not particularly to promote anonymity, which isn't that important to me, but simply to operate in a less ambiguous realm. I think that some customers would appreciate the simplicity of "it's just like your telephone service."

  2. in canada? by selfabuse · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Now, I'm not 100% sure on this (and I didn't RTFA), but someone posted in a different article a while back (and got modded up) that due to the tax on blank CDRs, people in Canada could download music legally, so isn't this kind of a moot point?

    1. Re:in canada? by srw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Certainly 80(2)(b) means I legally need to have sharing turned off in Kazaa. The act of me downloading itself is not a violation. It could probably be argued that it is contributory(?) to the sharors offence.

      In particular, though, this section of the CCA seems to permit the borrowing of a legally purchased CD from a friend (or a library?) and then making a personal copy for myself. I can't lend my copy to another person for them to make a copy.

      Perhaps it is an offence to lend an original CD to a friend, though. Maybe I need to purchase it, copy it, and sell it back?

      IANAL Yada,yada,yada.

    2. Re:in canada? by srw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > I will point out that in the early eighties, software copy places did exactly that: Took advantage of a fuzzy area of the law ("evaluation copies") to make a buck. They lasted for a year or two until the software companies put pressure on, and then they were raided and royally busted.

      The protections in Sections 80 thru 82 of the CCA apply to sound recordings of performances of musical works. Software is not a musical work. Although, I remember some discussion of that before there was specific protection for computer software in Canada. Could I copyright my Vic-20 cassette as a musical recording, or a printout as a literary work? The usual consensus was the printout. In the mid or late 80s, software became specifically protectable under copyright law in Canada. Yes, I know this becuase I wrote and published commercial software for the Vic-20.

      But, like my comment before the rabbit-trail... Music (or more specifically, a performance of a musical work embodied in a sound recording -- that does limit some applications such as, perhaps, bootlegging a live concert.) is specifically exempted in section 80. I'm not arguing that _sharing_ music via Kazaa is legal... that would violate 80(2)(b).

      I suspect that the Copee Shoppe would be shut down due to lending CDs or Public Performance rules. I'm not sure what the legality of lending CDs is, but if you read the warning at the start of most sell-through videos, you will see that lending is prohibited. That's right, I cannot legally lend you that Matrix DVD I bought. Video rental stores cannot go down to walmart, buy a $8.88 video, and rent it out. They need to buy the $100 version that permits rental. (or get a seperate license) Perhaps there is similar legalese regarding CDs.

  3. What's next, sue GM? by Gryphon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Following SOCAN's logic, I guess we should sue General Motors the next time somebody uses a Chevy to rob a bank.

    1. Re:What's next, sue GM? by Libertarian_Geek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And sue gun manufacturers for criminals using them. Oh wait, apparently, some are already following that logic. This is a slippery slope that will be difficult to change because people see an "easy out" of personal responsibility. And those willing to use this "logic" in lawsuits see access to deeper pockets than those who are truley responsible. So, Here's my "what's next": What's next, sue the government for making roads that make it too easy for me to speed. I will be sending all of my speeding tickets to the appropriate authorities (depending on the road). The Gas station, Nissan, DOT, etc. They should have put speed bumps on the interstate!

      --

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  4. So... by hookedup · · Score: 5, Interesting


    We're obviously in a struggle right now trying to figure out the best techniques to ensure that they are compensated appropriately.'"

    As a Canadian, I already pay a copyright levy on cdrs, am I supposed to pay more to my isp now? Judging by the line above..I'd have to say it isnt completely out of the question.

  5. Just like SCO by countach · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They remind me of SCO. Try and blame everybody and sue everybody, and see what sticks. Just no integrity left in the business community it seems.

  6. Criminals who use the phone by Ian+0x57 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So if two ppl plan a crime using a phone is the phone company partly to blame?? Of cource not.

  7. similar to gun manufacturer problems in the US by sbuckhopper · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Occationally in the US there is a court case where the family of someone who's been murdered tries to sue the gun company. They never win. The major problem with this concept that the Canadian music industry is trying to pull a fast one is that if the enabling technology is legal then there is no justification to sue them for doing their job.

    So, for example, in the US it is legal to make and sell guns. The gun manufacturing companies, although are creating a dangerous tool, are not breaking any laws. If someone buys that gun and shoots someone else, they are violating the law, but there is no reason why the gun manufacturer should be held liable.

    If there is any logic in the Canadian supreme court, they will see that the ISP is just the enabling technology. The ISP is doing nothing illegal. They should not be held accountable. Yeah I know that this cannot be used as a precident in a Canadian court, but I think its more of a logical argument, not a setting of a precident.

    I also wonder how they think that they're going to collect from foreign ISPs.

    --
    "Everybody knows the moon's made of cheese," Wallace.
  8. ISPs should fight back by nattt · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If the worst happens and SOCAN gets their own way, the ISP needs to fight back in any way possible, from charging outrageous fees to SOCAN and any other music body using the internet. If they can't let us have our internet free, then they should be paying a lot for it also...

    To think of an ISP as anything other than a carrier opens up such a big can of worms that to do so would be disasterous. Canada has a very distributed population, and the internet is necessary here for communication and business. This stupid SOCAN idea is anti-business. Perhaps businesses should also band together to do anything possible to screw SOCAN and their musicians into the ground. After all, we're paying the stupid CD levy for all the source code we back up.

    --
    -- oldthinkers unbellyfeel ingsoc
  9. Why just musicians? by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm a starting struggling author as well as a software developer. Should I not receive a "payment" for potential software piracy?

    I already pay a levy on CD-R material [which I never use to pirate audio] that goes to the music industry.

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  10. Another charge for something I don't use? by GoofyBoy · · Score: 2, Interesting


    I don't download music. I do listen to Internet radio but I assume that royalties are already paid for since these are well known/popular radios stations.

    So if my ISP does pass on the any charges, then I am paying for something that I don't do. (They might not either way if they develop some niffty technology which can tell if I download an mp3 or not (but then I question it since there are many ways of fooling it)).

    Why shouldn't I download music? I am paying for it regardless.

    --
    The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
  11. Great! by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This will legalize P2P sharing just as well as it legalizes CD-copying.

  12. You realize, of course, that this means war by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If SOCAN wins this case, and I end up paying an extra $50/year for my internet connection, I think it's time to buy a CD burner, and install gnutella. I use my 'net connection for computing, not compiling, but if I'm gonna be charged by the music industry for being connected, then I think I should be making the most of it.

    There's a lot of music that I'd like to download. So far, I've been restrained in the matter. Now I'm gonna have me some fun.

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  13. Re:Who gets 'compensated'? by nattt · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, actually, you're out of date - some of the levy has been payed to artists, about $6million out of the $28 million collected, I think.

    --
    -- oldthinkers unbellyfeel ingsoc
  14. My angry letter to SOCAN by samsara_blue · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As a SOCAN member, I was horrified by the news of their lawsuit with the ISP's. It *may* have been relevant three years ago, when people signing up for high-speed internet were likely doing so to get onto Napster 1.0 and other "file sharing" networks. It may have been fair if things did not change as fast as they do. But SOCAN is hopelessly living in the past. here is the full text of the letter i sent them: My name is Sam Blue, owner of independant label Artefakt. I am writing on behalf of myself and Kim Kelly, songwriter for The House of Mary. We would like to make a formal complaint regarding the court case which has recently been publicised between Socan and the Internet Service providers. As SOCAN members, we are strongly opposed to this type of lawsuit, and feel the cost, time, energy, and publicity can only do harm to SOCAN and the interests it represents. I think it would be worthwhile to investigate some of the trends that are now taking place in the online music industry. A lot has changed since your lawsuit began three years ago. The opportunities for artists selling their music online, through legitimate, secure music services are tremendous, especially for independant artists like ourselves. And the popularity of illegal file-swapping networks seems to be in decline. This is mainly because services like Apple's iTunes simply work so well that people can't be bothered with illegal downloads, which ultimately take more time and effort, and are less reliable than the one-click downloads you can get on iTunes and comparable services. In the earlier days of napster [again this was only 3 years ago] we made a point of putting select tracks of our own music on Napster in hopes people would be exposed to it on an international scale. We also made a point of putting half of our CD on our own website [at lo-fi quality] so people would have a previos of the CD. We pressed our CDs on a short run of 500. In three years, we have sold perhaps half of those. After doing our own distribution, promotion in the atlantic area, we concluded that the entire business model of selling CDs in music stores is one whose days are numbered. We look forward to the launch of iTunes in Canada and other countries. We see this as an opportunity to market out music internationally, without having to undertake the cost and effort of "physical" distribution. In short, we believe the future of the music business is entirely online. I personally hope that SOCAN recognizes soon enough that the online market is likely to be their greatest opportunity, not a threat. Suing the internet service providers seems to me like biting the hand that feeds us. There is definitly illegal activity still going on on a mass scale, which can hurt artists, but there is also a lot of promise in the legitimate music businesses that are now emerging. There are a number of things SOCAN could be doing to combat illegal file sharing, AND encouraging more royaltiy revenues online: 1. Secure partnerships with the legitimate online music stores like itunes, e-music, CD Baby, etc... 2. Identify promotional opportunities for driving legitimate online music sales - Radio, TV, Print, so people will flock to paid music services and abandon illegal file swapping. 3. Form a partnership with ISPs [internet service providers] to monitor network activity related to file-swapping. There may be ways for ISPs to "block" file swapping through programs like Limewire by re-configuring their network. 4. Research the growing trend of Internet Radio - radio stations which broadcast live on the internet. Many can be found at shoutcast.com These stations are tapping into an international audience and many are unregulated and have no advertising [and therefore no revenue] but have a growing audience. Some stations are now able to charge a subscription fee, part of which "ought" to be shared with the artists. 5. Investigate ways SOCAN can collect not only more royalties, but more RAW DATA through internet technology. The online music stores have the ability to track each individu