Download Anaconda for Debian

hsoom writes "Debian Planet is reporting that unofficial sarge-based ISOs using the Anaconda installer can be downloaded from here. The features developed so far include '...changed the code that installs software to use APT instead of RPM, removed Red Hat-specific configuration hooks, and written a new tool called picax that builds Anaconda-based installation CDs from a Debian repository'. However there are features that are not yet working and it is not recommended for use in a production environment."

Comments

This is good news.

[byolinux]

One of the main 'comments' I get when I recommend Debian GNU/Linux to people, is 'Debian is difficult to install' - a fair comment, and this will be a move in the right direction.

Give it some time.

Knoppix is right now probably the easiest way to install Debian, via knx-hdinstall.

Re:This is good news.

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the main 'comments' I get when I recommend Debian GNU/Linux to people, is 'Debian is difficult to install' - a fair comment, and this will be a move in the right direction.

It's not that hard to install, but one of the major hurdles I found when using Woody's boot CDs, was the completely obsolete kernels you have a choice of using. Neither of them was from this year. I tried 2.4.18-bf24 but it didn't recognize any of the ethernet nics in my machine... an intel gigabit ethernet PCI card and two onboard interfaces (nforce2 nvidia network interface and a 3com interface). It was an Asus A7N8X-Deluxe board I was trying to install it on. I eventually gave up and put a realtek NIC in to do the network install. Pretty embarassing with the other guys just did a Mandrake install and their NIC was picked up without a problem.

The other problem with the outdated kernel is the Nforce2 IDE chipset doesn't work in DMA mode at all. I needed to compile 2.4.21 with AMD Viper support before I could get anything better than 4-5MB/sec. Now it's great at 50MB/sec.

Another problem I had seemed to be related to the APIC on this board. I would get constant lockups under heavy I/O. Unfortunately one of the heavy I/O periods was during the initial apt-get over the network, thus it would lock up every single time I tried to install. I eventually got it to just install the base image off the CD, replaced the kernel with the 2.4.21 I built on another machine, and after that it was fine (I compiled the kernel without any APIC support).

Anyway, to make a long story short, it's outdated support like this that'll never get Debian to be accepted by my coworkers, and I can't say I blame them. I love the stability and easy of maintenance once it's installed, but putting it on a newer machine is sure a pain in the ass. I'll be stuck with Red Hat (Enterprise Linux) from now on I guess for our servers since Debian provided such a poor showing on a workstation setup.

Re:This is good news.

[martinde]

> One of the main 'comments' I get when I recommend Debian GNU/Linux to people, is 'Debian is difficult to install' - a fair comment,
> and this will be a move in the right direction.

And of course, the "standard answer" to this is "you only install Debian one time on any one machine". People who have not used it have a hard time believing this, but it's true barring hard disk failure or some other catastrophe like that. Even major updates happen via "apt-get upgrade", and 99.9% of the time it Just Works(TM) if you're running stable. (Take that down to about 97% for unstable/testing.)

I have a machine that started out around Debian 1.1, as a 486 and has been hardware upgraded several times (to a Pentium Pro and now a 1GHz C3) and apt-get upgraded routinely since those days. I had to reboot due to the recent linux security issue, prior to that this machine had an uptime of 172 days. It's running Debian/stable plus I've done some backporting out of unstable for a few key bits.

Anyways, between Knoppix, anaconda, and the new debian-installer work going on within Debian, hopefully the "it's hard to install" issue is just about a moot point. Enough proselytizing for this morning ;-)

Re:This is good news.

[tacocat]

Debian is working on a new installation process for their sarge release. This new debian-installer is greatly improved over the previous methods. I have been playing with it as a net-install and found it to work extremely well.

Installation time, not counting file downloads which don't require my intervention anyways, is on the order of 20 minutes or less

I don't know that Anaconda can bring much of anything to the installation process. When installing debian-installer I found I was asked fewer questions and have a faster set up then I did with SuSE 8.2.

One very important point to make abundantly clear about the debian-installer is that it is not responsible for the configuration of your X-Window environment. This is something that may confuse newbies who are not used to the concept of a non-GUI operating system. All the distro's offer it (non-GUI), but many are assuming a GUI interface is preferred.

Keeping this in mind, the debian-installer does what it is intended to do very well. And it's cross platform too!

Personally, I don't think it's a generally good thing to have more distribution models tied into to only one installation engine. There are advantages with this, but there are always disadvantages to a homogeneous environment.

Re:This is good news.

[tacocat]

I don't think installing Linux is Elitist

It depends on the distribution you select and the requirements you have as a user.

You must first recognize that there is a trade-off between the two concepts of Simple to Use and Highly Configurable. I believe that the two are to a large extent, mutually exclusive of each other.

If you want Simple to Use then you can grab something like Knoppix or Libranet and have a Linux installation up and running in a few minutes without no idea what you actually did. However, you will not be able to customize the installation to include a mail server that can do something like:

• SMTP + SASL_Authentication over TLS
• Amavisd+spamassassin+clamav
• LDAP+Kerberos/SSH user authentication
• IMAP+SSL and IMAP-SSL(localhost) support

as an example.

If you want to do that, then you have a lot more work to do that a simple newbie and for that matter, most simple newbies don't know what the fuck I just said, unless the heard it in a trade magazine.

I can do all of this stuff using Debian with out much difficulty. Technically I can't even do what I posted in SuSE without going into custom builds on most everything. So even there, they (SuSE) has hit the barrier between Simple to Use and Highly Configurable

Arguably, Microsoft will probably come up with a configuration utility that does all of these things with the click of a button. But there will be at least two problems with their implimentation:

1. It won't work quite the way you would like it to, so you'll have to compromise.
2. Their security history has been less than stellar.

Other than that, Microsoft is probably the Leader of the Pack when it comes to Simple to Use. They do it very well and they have their millions of users out there with their installation of XP.

IMHO I think that the Computer User community is divided into approximately three camps:

Casual User

This is the guy who doesn't even know what a hard drive his, he thinks it's rush hour. He has no interest in learning about anything to do with computers but nonetheless is saddled with the requirement that he use email and web browsers as a part of whatever life he chooses to lead.

Super User or Interested User

These are the guys who ask questions about what their computer does, how does it work, can I do this? They will inevitably take up some kind of semi serious coding, even if it's HTML + Javascript. They might even get into C/C++, Perl, Python, dot-net. But they begin to approach the type of user who understands 99% of the questions asked when installing a linus distribution of circa 1995

God Mode User

These are the anointed dudes who can code you into a corner from their PDA. They can come up with shell tricks that hurt your brain and melt your eyeballs. These are the guys who really know their shit and consider installation of Linux-from-Scratch something of a Saturday Night Special

Assuming that my presentation of three types of users isn't completely out of line, then you have to recognize that GodMode Users and Casual Users will probably never be satisfied on the same system. At least not now.

It is entirely possible that these users can converge onto one distribution, but that remains to be seen. If I had to pick one today, I would say it's Debian. Because Knoppix, Libranet, and Lindows are all based on Debian, Debian is the best candidate we have today for meeting the needs of all three of these user-types.

And this is why Perens said we should all back Debian. Because right now, the foundation that is Debian is being used to satisfy the requirements of more types of users in the world than any other distribution out there, bar none. You can argue about exceptions, but the final score will be Debian.

Re:This is good news.

[byolinux]

I don't think we're talking about stupid people, but people need to learn somehow. For example, $JoeAverageWindowsUser should be able to use GNU/Linux to a fair degree of competency in a short period of time, including installing it.

If he can do this on a Macintosh, why shouldn't he be able to do this on a GNU/Linux system?

Re:This is good news.

[doodleboy]

Anyway, to make a long story short, it's outdated support like this that'll never get Debian to be accepted by my coworkers, and I can't say I blame them. I love the stability and easy of maintenance once it's installed, but putting it on a newer machine is sure a pain in the ass. I'll be stuck with Red Hat (Enterprise Linux) from now on I guess for our servers since Debian provided such a poor showing on a workstation setup.

There's a lot of new interest in debian because there's no corporation that will try to monitize its relationship with its users if it becomes more popular. The installer is a problem, but there's a lot of work being done - there's progeny's anaconda port, there's the new installer in sarge, etc. If this happens in a reasonable timeframe I would not be surprised if it made huge inroads in the enterprise space. Easy easy updates and no money to pay, ever, is a powerful combination.

But if you can't wait for debian to ship a modern installer and don't want to fork over $$$ for Redhat Enterprise Linux 3 you can always try White Box Linux (http://www.beau.org/~jmorris/linux/whitebox/), a free version of rhel3. It's at rc2 now and production release is probably only a month or two away. I notice the Dag apt repository (http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/) has rhel3 rpms, so it should be possible to stay up to date with apt.

Re:This is good news.

[derF024]

Updating the kernel is *Important*. That is one thing that up2date (Redhat) did well and as near as I can tell apt-get -upgrade doesn't.

• kernel-image-2.4-386 - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on 386.
• kernel-image-2.4-586tsc - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on Pentium-Classic.
• kernel-image-2.4-686 - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV.
• kernel-image-2.4-686-smp - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/PIV SMP.
• kernel-image-2.4-k6 - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on AMD K6/K6-II/K6-III.
• kernel-image-2.4-k7 - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on AMD K7.
• kernel-image-2.4-k7-smp - Linux kernel image for version 2.4 on AMD K7 SMP.

apt-get install the kernel image for your arch and it will stay up to date with the rest of your system automatically. Unfortunately, it doesn't do this out of the box.

Single Package / Dep manager

[kbsingh]

Would be nice to see this expand into a single installer / package manager and (importantly!) a Dependency manager.

Maybe a hybrid of Anaconda + dselect would be nice, if rolled into 1. Add 'kickstart' kind of capablity to that and it would be a kickass app to have around.

Specially since most people dont tend to install Linux from installable mode very often( i havent in the last 3 years)

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Saint Stephen]

use aptitude (console) or synaptic (gtk)

I'm amazed that more people don't know this. I used dselect for about a day, then quickly discovered apt+tasksel, then aptitude. Dselect is awful.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Ed Avis]

But maybe what Debian should really be doing is copying from Knoppix. That has the easiest installation, i.e., no installation at all, and it's Debian-based. The conventional 'install it first and then run it' routine isn't nearly as easy or as much fun as 'run from CD and optionally install to your fixed disk later'. I'm surprised distros aren't making bigger moves towards a Knoppix-like installer, now it has been demonstrated that it can be done.

(Now Knoppix itself is i386-specific I think, but that's mostly hardware detection. On other architectures detection might be a bit less complex, I don't know.)

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[The_DOD_player]

Amen to that!!.

Knoppix is becoming Debians default installer on x86 hardware. Its not just more fun than the conventional approach, but it feels safer, since you can SEE it working on your computer before installing for real.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[byolinux]

I agree entirely.

Knoppix is pretty simple to install onto the Hard Disk too:-

1. Boot Knoppix
2. Alt-F2 (maybe Ctrl+Alt-F2)
3. Type knx-hdinstall

Knoppix for older Macintosh computers would seem like the next logical step - ones that can't run OS X, or run OS X poorly... good time for it, especially as Apple just had to pay out for misrepresenting OS X as functional on older hardware.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[sirReal.83.]

You forgot a step.

4. Reinstall entire OS just to remove Knoppix-specific packages

Don't get me wrong, I love Knoppix, but for use as an installer it's far from perfect. The last Debian install I did, I used Mepis, which takes the hardware detection from Knoppix and makes it pure Debian, plus a couple of Mepis system admin tools (USB key /home syncing, APT-source config, spamassassin blacklist/whitelist... list goes on) and the install is super easy. It's all done graphically, after booting the CD.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[byolinux]

"I stand corrected" said the man in the orthopedic shoes.

I'll give Mepis a go.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[wuliao]

Re-read your instructions from the perspective of an ordinary user.

1. Why do I have to hit Alt-F2? Why not a Menu option?
2. The fact that you don't know if it's Ctrl-Alt-F2 or Alt-F2 or if it changes shows a big usability problem right there.
3. Again, typing knx-hdinstall seems completely non-obvious. I'm sure I'd quickly figure it out by reading some docs or something, but why do I need to read some docs or google to figure that out?

Note: I've never used Knoppix, so maybe there are menu options, but those instructions aren't that easy, IMO.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[santos_douglas]

I understand how difficult it is for experienced linux users to see from the viewpoint of new users, so I thought I'd share my experience as just such a novice. I was totally new to linux, but as a capable Windows 2000 user I figured I could make it work. I downloaded the Debian ISOs to try out on my machine. I chose Debian since it seemed like THE distro out there. I was fairly surprised, it wasn't that bad (who's afraid of text based installs?) and I quickly had it installed and running with a KDE desktop. However it failed to configure some key hardware (sound, NIC, modem) which made moving further difficult. So I was extremely happy to learn about the official Debian w/Anaconda installer. Unfortunately it also coincided with the compromise of Debians machines so I never got a chance to try it out.

Finally some /.er recommended Mepis as a good Debian based distro, which I promtly installed and am quite happy with. The install went perfectly, and the default desktop may not be ideal to linux veterans out there, but its just fine for a linux newbie to start off on.

A few tips/things I've noticed:

-Right off the bat, where the heck is the volume control? Should be on the default desktop, not deep in the application menu as 'kmix'.
-With all due respect to Konqueror, Mozilla should be the default browser on the desktop.
-I don't know what's up with Kpackage, but I love apt-get.
-IM is pretty important to the masses, why not make a good multiprotocol client like Gaim the default?
-Mepis does a good job putting a GUI face on many of the system config stuff, but they are still spread over a number of menus. It would help if they were consolidated under one heading, similar to Windows control panel, although come to think of it everythings not under that either.

Overall though I'd say Anaconda is a big step forward for Linux on the average users desktop. With a few minor tweaks this could easily be recommended for the clueless windows user.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[frozenray]

> 3. Type knx-hdinstall

As far as I know, knx-hdinstall is deprecated with current Knoppix versions (starting June this year as far as I remember); the preferred method to perform a hard disk installation is now knoppix-installer. Gives you the choice to do a Knoppix installation or a Debian installation, too.

Re:Single Package / Dep manager

[Anonymous Coward]

no, a package manager that builds everything from source, even when you're using common-as-dirt x86 IDE-PCI hardware, is simply inane.

while you're waiting for mozilla to build, I've installed mozilla.

and openoffice, gnome, KDE, a pile of audio editing utilities, and the latest security updates. that would take you somewhere around 3 days, even with your 'optimized' kernel and build chain, wouldn't it?

and then your oc'ed CPU burns up somewhere around the time mozilla finishes building, and you visit the benchmarks to prove that gentoo presents no performance benefits over debian and mandrake.

I mean, gimme a break here. Gentoo is slow especially for compiling stuff!

Test 3 : Kernel Compile

The same 2.4.21 source was copied to all machines and compiled using the same options. However, it should be noted that the Debian system used gcc 3.3.1 whilst the Mandrake and Gentoo installations used gcc 3.3.2 .

Results:

Debian
7m 28s

Mandrake
7m 49s

Gentoo
9m 40s

rightious karma whoring

[CAIMLAS]

Here's the link to building anaconda-based debian ISO images.

Finally a quick, easy way to remaster debian to hand out to friends.

Not to excited

[killmuji]

Before getting too enthusiatic about this, please do remember to read the errata before downloading the iso images. Lots of work still needs to be done, but this is a step in the right direction.

Does Anaconda support text

[armando_wall3]

I still prefer text based installations, so it will be great if Anaconda will be optional, so Debian will have the best of both worlds.

Does anybody know anything about it?

Re:Does Anaconda support text

[zerblat]

Anaconda won't be Debian's default installer -- the next version of Debian will use the new Debian Installer, which supports multiple UIs and all the Debian platforms.

Anaconda has been ported to Debian by Progeny, mainly because Progeny supports both Red Hat and Debian and they want to use the same installer for both distros.

Oh, and yes, Anaconda can be run in text mode, but it doesn't currently work in the Progeny port.

Foolproof installer?

[Trbmxfz]

One of the main 'comments' I get when I recommend Debian GNU/Linux to people, is 'Debian is difficult to install'

I think it can be argued that the Debian installer asks many questions that may not be easy to answer for a Linux newbie.

But, as you say, there is hope: I remember someone saying, a few years ago, that a RedHat had formatted their drives without clearly mentioning that it would be destructive (oops!). Today, Mandrake can be installed after just a few minutes worth of clicking "OK". It generally makes the right choices for the user, clearly shows what partitions will be created, and warns if it's about to blank an existing windows partition. If it finds some unsupported hardware, it mentions what it knows about it, so that the user can simply ask their local guru for help.

I think it's no exaggeration to say that someone who already installed Windows can safely install e.g. a Mandrake.

Re:Foolproof installer?

[gregmac]

I think it's no exaggeration to say that someone who already installed Windows can safely install e.g. a Mandrake.

I think that the Mandrake and Redhat (8, 9) installs (to get up to a working system) are better than Windows at this point. As long as you have relatively common and supported hardware, it sets everything up for you. I used to think that it was dumb of all the distros to include so many other utilities and applications, but I've changed my views on that now.

Once you install Windows itself, you have to run windowsupdate somewhere between 3 and 8 times (rebooting each time) to get it to the point it won't get infected with a virus in the next few minutes (and always do this behind a firewall). Then you have to go download all the things that you need for day-to-day tasks: winzip, pdf reader.. install usually an office suite, mozilla/firebird/thunderbird (well, at least I do.. but I won't go into a rant about how lacking in features IE/OE are). It takes at least two hours to install a Windows system, and most of the time is spent waiting. (And not just hands-off waiting time, either... Windowsupdate .. wait to download.. click install.. wait to install.. click to reboot .. wait to reboot.. repeat)

Taking redhat as an example.. All the interaction is at the start, selecting paritions (formatted later), selecting what to install, etc. Then you wait for it to install, though you do have to change the CD's once or twice (unless you do a net-install, which is handy). Once it boots up, run up2date -u, probably reboot for the new kernel, and thats it. Everything is up to date and ready to go.

Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[_Pinky_]

I can understand some people saying Debian, in it's current state is difficult to install.

But I cringe when I hear that from a fellow computer person. I mean honestly, just because it's not using framebuffer and a mouse on install?

True, deslect/apt can be intimidating, but much easier the trying to manually find rpms down the road...

Do you spend more time supporting systems or installing systems??? Me, it's supporting them, so I love apt...

And if I hear one more RH person say "Well, just select 'everything' on install, then Up2date doesn't have dependicy problems" I'm gonna kick them in the kneecap...

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[byolinux]

And if I hear one more RH person say "Well, just select 'everything' on install, then Up2date doesn't have dependicy problems" I'm gonna kick them in the kneecap...

never heard that one before, but I did once know a guy who'd built up a few CD-Rs full of Windows DLL files he'd copy onto every Windows using friends PC.

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[slim]

I can understand some people saying Debian, in it's current state is difficult to install.

But I cringe when I hear that from a fellow computer person. I mean honestly, just because it's not using framebuffer and a mouse on install?

Well, dselect could be friendlier: it's not so much that it's text based, but that the interface itself is alien to most people. It's a good interface, like vi is a good interface: but it's not quick and easy to pick up, and if you skip past the instructions, you're in trouble.

But that's not the worst thing about the Debian install. It's been proved that auto-detecting hardware can be done in Linux, yet to install Woody I needed to manually specify an Ethernet driver and select an appropriate X server. That's really not good enough, and would scupper a lot of people, computer professionals or not.

This may be fixed in Sarge: someone reply and tell me.

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[BoysDontCry]

Well. Keep in mind that the Woody installer is several years old now.

The new installer should have good hardware detection. It's in beta right now.

Debian Installer

Re:Are you an IT specialist or a user?

[GigsVT]

Well. Keep in mind that the Woody installer is several years old now.

That seems like a serious problem in itself to me!

anaconda-debian, apt-redhat

[danny]

First they ported apt to Redhat, now they're using anaconda for Debian installs! This is a great illustration of the flexibility of free software.

(Review of The Art of UNIX Programming )

Danny.

Kickstart...

[Crossfire]

Hopefully this means we have Kickstart too.

Debian has been needing kickstart-like functionality for a while. (No, FAI is not the answer, it works in a somewhat different manner, and its a royal pain to set up to bootstrap unstable systems from a host running stable).

Re:Reinstall the OS?

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is that installing linux is fun. Installing windows is a chore.

It's too bad that they are making linux so easy to install. Soon I'm going to have to move on to Hurd or something.

Re:Anaconda??? Is it too much to ask...

[vondo]

Why should I care what NIC or video card or sound card is in a machine?

We have 30 machines in our research group; there are probably 20 different configurations. Sure, I can find out if I want to, but why should I open each machine up to take inventory before upgrading the OS?

Re:Anaconda??? Is it too much to ask...

[tacocat]

Just a suggestion, but the next time you can't identify the hardware, flip to another console window (Alt+Ctrl+F2) and type "lspci -vv" and you will have all the information about hardware detection you could want.

And the best part is, you don't have to remove the cover!

Glossary

[nsushkin]

It took me a while to figure out the meaning of this article. It needs a quick glossary.

• sarge - The code name for the next major Debian release after woody is "sarge". It is likely that this release will be numbered "3.1".
• Anaconda - the Red Hat Linux installation program.

On my wish list

[ONU CS Geek]

If I really had to say I think we could do one thing better, it would be having a 'headless' install option for some of these devices.

There are times where I go and install software, and have to be in a different room or different area, that me physically being at the console for the entire installation is pratically impossible. It would be wonderful if there was an option to do a network install over https, or a network install over ssh, to get it up and working.

Just think how nice it would be to pop in a CD, sit back at your desk, go to an IP address, and volia, install your server without actually being there :)

Oh, well, just wishful thinking, unless anyone knows a good installer, wants to help write one, or knows of a free as in beer system to get something like that accomplished.

Ian