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Disintermediation and Politics

code_rage writes "Everett Ehrlich (capsule biography) writes an article in the Washington Post that examines Howard Dean's effective use of the internet to create a political organization. He says that Dean has created a 'virtual' party that has taken over the only remaining asset of value, the brand name of the Democratic party. His analysis refers to the theory of Nobel-winning economist Ronald Coase: that the size of an organization is determined by the cost of gathering information. Ehrlich's article makes some predictions about the effect that Dean's strategy will have on the political system." In a related story, there's an mp3 interview with Dick Morris, along with a couple of (appropriately) blog posts about it.

32 of 817 comments (clear)

  1. The end of the (non-)religious right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The most interesting passage in Ehrlich's article doesn't talk about Dean at all, but the Republicans:
    And that's what Howard Dean has done. Nor is Dean alone. The same forces make the evangelical right a powerful force in the Republican Party. With its TV stations, membership lists and money, it is a party waiting to happen. When Republicans of more moderate stripes express concerns about the evangelicals "taking a walk" on the party, they are recognizing that underlying reality
    I've always wondered why Republican political figures such as Bush don't just tell the bible-pounders to go pound sand. It's not as if they're going to vote Democratic just to spite the administration, right? Ehrlich's point explains just exactly why: because if the torch-waving asshats of the American Taliban ever take their ball and go home, the Democrats will win by default, forever and ever Amen. There will be no single party capable of stopping them. And once unopposed, the Democrats will start to look a lot more like old-school Democrats (read: socialists in populists' clothing) than the Stepford Republicans they now resemble.

    Scary stuff for a right-leaning person such as myself who thought he had no use for the religious wackos that infest the Republican party...
    1. Re:The end of the (non-)religious right? by operagost · · Score: 5, Funny

      torch-waving asshats of the American Taliban

      You just brought new meaning to the word "flamebait".
      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    2. Re:The end of the (non-)religious right? by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I've always wondered why Republican political figures such as Bush don't just tell the bible-pounders to go pound sand.
      Because Bush is a bible-thumper.
      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
    3. Re:The end of the (non-)religious right? by sosegumu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sorry, but, all hardcore evangelical Christians are not religious right.

      Not all but surely most.

      Speaking as a formerly agnostic follower of Jesus who grew up with no religious background at all, I'm confused by the way practicing Christians seem invariably to be conservative in their politics. I can't really find a way to reconcile the pull yourself up by the bootstraps brand of Rush Limbaugh conservatism with the teachings of Jesus or the canonical books of the New Testament.

      In truth, the Gospels show that Jesus came most sharply into conflict not with the big partyers (sinners), but with the Orthodox Religious Right of the day, the Pharisees, over their imposing morality onto others, and their attempts to side-step their responsibility to care for others' well-being.

      Also, the First-Century Church, was strongly socialistic. Compare Marx's dictum, From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, with Acts 2:44-46 (NIV), All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

      I've found that intimating that Jesus was socialistic in His politics will probably get you into a nasty row with most church folks; saying that He was a Communist will virtually guarantee it.

      But I really don't know why.

      --
      It's easier to wear the spandex than to do the crunches. --David Lee Roth
    4. Re:The end of the (non-)religious right? by mr100percent · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Why am I feeding the troll, here goes....

      "Muslims hate the west because their culture has stagnated by their own choosing for half a millenia."

      Uh, no? Don't bother strawman-ing the issue, that's not the reason.

      Muslims dislike the West because the West wasn't the nicest to them. The British ruled India and portions of the Middle East, and weren't the nicest to the indigenous people. France had similiar, I believe. We really didn't care bout Iraqis for most of this century, in pre-Gulf war times the Europeans divided up the land and separated them into separate countries, nationalism and all. The West, including the US, propped up dictators and non-democratic governments in these countries, which angered the people. Look at today, the democratically-elected Islamic government in Algeria was overthrown by military dictators, and many criticize the US and France for their tacit support of it.

      "the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."

      ---------- Samuel P. Huntington

      The West had other things that alienated people. First, the West snubbed all non-Western people as savages, basically. They didn't have "modern philosophy", or our morals, like secularism or Christianity. The West had this nasty way of imposing their culture on others, like the British pushing English on their colonies, or France forcing Algerians to learn French and study French literature. The West didn't like the Muslims, myths from the Crusades are STILL propagating in some literature I've read.

      Currently, Muslims in general dislike the US for its unconditional support of Israel and its injurious manipulation of other countries for its own sole interest. However, I should point out that the Muslims really weren't bothered by the US pre-9/11. 19 foolish people really stirred things up, but if you didn't know, the terrorism was widely condemned by every country (including Afghanistan), except Saddam Hussein's government. Imams, Mullahs, and Ayatollahs all over the world condemned the act, and prayed for the victims. Iran had public candlelit vigils on the streets, there were public anti-terrorism demonstrations in Bangladesh and Indonesia.

      Post-9/11, things got a little different. The US invaded Afghanistan, which upset some, but many said it was a natural consequence of 9/11 and revenge. Even television preacher Sheikh Qaradawi said that he could understand why the US was invading, and he said it was legitimate. But honestly, the threat of terrorism didn't really get worse, Muslims all over the world still said they didn't support Al Qaeda, terrorism, or Bin Laden. Sure, they got angry when Christian evangelists made statements that insulted Muslims, but Bush denied it was a war on Islam, so it never boiled over.

      What really Fubar-ed the whole thing was this war on Iraq. The US government did things that infuriated the Arab world and Muslim world at large. I don't have to go into why, but it really turned the tide. People now refuse to support the US; everyone, including me, feels that the US government is untrustworthy. Who else can they turn to? Bush's actions became a top recruiting tool for terrorists. Turn on a TV and watch soldiers raid homes, drag women out of their homes not fully clothed, harrass old men, hear about how civillians died every day, it's all making people support other groups.

      "Their priests tell them they are the good, the faithful, the chosen, and yet they are the poor, the weak, and the oppressed. How can this be?" Two things. Respite, and there's a hadith "God will allow a fair government to survive, even if it isn't Muslim, and God will cause an unfair government to fall, even if it is Muslim." They declined, and lost it.

      "Of course the truth is comical. They're the most corrupt, the laziest, the most decadent." Blah blah blah.

    5. Re:The end of the (non-)religious right? by mr100percent · · Score: 3, Insightful
      By that same token the Germans and Japanese should still be angry over their defeat at the hads of the allies. It is a similar time period we're talking about.

      Totally different culture there. Germans today deeply regret Nazism, and Japan wised up. Your "Feudalism" theory doesn't make sense, please elaborate because I don't understand what you mean.

      Israel? Do you really want to open up a can of worms here? Fine, but I warn you, this will be lengthy.

      But a bunch of farmers with a hodge-podge of weapons were too much for the surrounding muslim pussies to even imagine tolerating. So they attack the recently declared state. And predictably loose. Now Israel is this great evil because they've defended themselves and bought land from people who sold it to them.

      You're reading this from the Zionist view? Did you know that the Jewish settlers carried out terrorism against the Palestinian people who were already there? David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel, actually had a wanted poster with his name on it, for terrorism and attacks against the Arabs, in his effort to push for a "Jewish state." Israel didn't buy Palestinian land, instead it was stolen when people fled their homes during the war, and weren't allowed to return. There are eyewitness accounts of Israeli soldiers driving them out, killing a few even. I'm not going to get into blame, my point is that the Palestinians were driven out, not voluntarily as your post alleged. Israel demolished some homes, moved Jewish immigrants into others. The Palestinians are understandably upset, they don't get their homes back and don't get an apology or compensation either. This isn't like ancestors losing land, but people who are still living. This could evolve into a giant rant, but I'll cap it off here.


      The arabs lost and blame the US for their own weaknesses

      Really? Who has ever publicly blamed the US for Egypt losing the six-day war? Who has blamed the US for Israel's refusing to make peace? I recall Clinton leading a peace accord with Netanyahu and Arafat, both shaking hands. I've only heard criticism for the US' current support of Israel, not for "Arab weakness".

      The only reason Israel has US support is because the muslims murder civilians specifically.

      I think you are blind. You didn't know about AIPAC giving MILLIONS in campaign contributions? That every candidate for decades has sided with Israel to court the Jewish and evangelical votes? If that as you said is the sole reason, then why does nearly the entire UN condemn some Israeli military actions? Why does the UN complain that Israel is in violation of refugee laws? The UN has condemned terrorism on both sides.

      Fuck the Muslims. Give them a taste of their own morality. It's ok to kill me because you don't like me, fuck you, eat hot thermonuclear death. Reciprocity is a bitch. Clearly if civilian populations are fair game, the civilian Muslims populations are NO exception.

      Sheesh, you really have to strawman the issue here, don't you? First off, Islam does NOT condone murder, ok? Second, don't say Muslims when you only mean Arabs/Palestinians, of which I am neither. It's completely forbidden to murder anyone or attack civillians. The terrorist attacks have received worldwide condemnation from scholars, Imams, Mullahs, Maulanas, Muftis, Sheikhs, you name it. Terrorism is completely against Islam, are we clear on that? I am a Muslim, and I will help you hunt down any scum that kills children. It's not as easy as you think, Terrorists, Baathists, and the Taliban don't exactly walk around in broad daylight, despite what you think.

      I'll never forget the CNN foot

  2. Nah. by shystershep · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't buy it. As far as being able to organize a campaign based on emotionally-charged issues, and thus being able to recruit volunteers with little or not effort, the internet will and has had a dramatic impact on politics (i.e., Howard Dean). But just because it allowed Dean to expand his base of support much more rapidly and widely than was ever possible before, that does not automatically mean the death of organized politics and our two-party system. How will it help moderate, hum-drum politics and politicians (probably > 90%), or even interesting politicians without a drum to beat? It won't. It'll help the radical and/or disaffected fringes to have more of a voice (which is usually a good thing), but most Americans are firmly in the middle of the road. The group that appeals most to the middle is going to be the one that wins. I'm not saying our current system will be the way it is forever (god help us if so), but I don't see any radical change anytime soon.

    --
    The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer. - Albert Einstein
    1. Re:Nah. by Aardpig · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I sure hope it doesn't mean the death of the two party system.

      Why? A multi-party democracy can still produce strong governments. In my eyes, a two-party system is only one party away from being a single-party dictatorship, especially when the minority party is very weak; the current situation in the USA is a good example of this problem with two-party systems.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    2. Re:Nah. by ShavenYak · · Score: 4, Interesting

      imagine what would happen if there were 10 parties and the winner received only 20% of the electoral or popular vote.

      It's called a runoff. Either take the top two (or maybe three) candidates and have a second vote, or use instant runoff voting, which gets the voter's second and third choices (and so forth) up front. Surely a true Slashdotter would prefer such a system - the more choices the better, right?

      It would certainly be nice if political discourse in this nation had more aspects to it than left vs. right. I think ten parties would be great, although realistically four or five are about all that the average voter could keep straight anyway. Some would inevitably be rather marginal, but still could shift the course of an election.

      --

      Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
    3. Re:Nah. by deanc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How will it help moderate, hum-drum politics and politicians (probably > 90%), or even interesting politicians without a drum to beat? It won't.

      That's correct. Politicians who rose through the ranks based on their connections with party-elders and got into office due to the intertia of the voters are, in fact hurt by the internet. They will be vulnerable to politicians who are able to create networks of loyal rank-and-file supporters who "believe" in their candidacy.

      The radical change is that politicians who depend on the inertia of voters are suddenly vulnerable.

    4. Re:Nah. by pyros · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Secondly, when there are more than two parties it is likely that representatives will be elected with less than 50% of their constituents supporting them. It is not unusual for candidates to win seats with only 30-35% support

      That's because our voting system sucks for anything but a two-party system, mathematically. If voters could rank the candidates, rather than just pick one then you wouldn't have the whole 30% winner thing.


      Finally, some multi-party systems allocate a percentage of the popular vote to a percentage of seats in the house of representatives. So, if a party can muster 2-3% of the popular vote they get 2-3% of the seats. The result of this is that there can be 20-30 parties elected to office. The deal-making that needs to be conducted before any decisions can be made can go on for many, many months.


      You see a system bogged down by having to cater to different groups, I see a system which is a truer erpersentative democracy. Imagine if there were more representatives of the technology sector when the DMCA was passed. (Industry lobyists don't count as representatives)

  3. Dean is Bush's best hope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The Dean candidacy is likely to cause great damage to the party come November 2004.

    Dean, a far-left candidate, is campaigning to the far-left in order to win the nomination. He has given little thought to the "middle": a group which is necessary to win the election. He has Bush landslide written all over his face.

    1. Re:Dean is Bush's best hope by mathdog2000 · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Dean is far-left" is a standard right-wing straw man. Dean is not *even* left. Check out Political Compass's analysis of 2004 Pres. Candidates for a little perspective.

    2. Re:Dean is Bush's best hope by the+morgawr · · Score: 4, Insightful
      > The top 5% of wage-earners

      You are deluded if you think wage-earners are the wealthy of this country. The truely wealthy don't work for money, the have money "work for them" by investing it, and owning bussinesses. If you are a top wage earner, you are, by definition, upper-middle class. If Rush thinks otherwise, he's been on more then pain medication.

      --
      The policy of the United States is worse than bad---it is insane. -- Ludwig von Mises, Economic Policy(1959)
  4. Lots of small donors by Octagon+Most · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I am not necessarily a big fan of Howard Dean, but I love what he is doing to political fundraising and grassroots organization. His campaign team's efforts have really reversed the equation and empowered the small-money donors to make a difference. I think it is much better for the American political system for a candidate to raise $100 from 2 million donors than $200 million from some very large donors and interest groups. It's bottom-up campaign finance reform. Once again a technological and social solution can do what convoluted legislation cannot.

    1. Re:Lots of small donors by sheldon · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Actually the Democrats have more money from large organizations such as unions and PACs than any other party. Truth be known the Republicans have more small donations."

      No, it's not at all true, and I have facts to back up my argument...
      http://www.opensecrets.org/presidenti al/donordems. asp

      The impact of unions and PACs has been negated by the McCain-Feingold prohibition against soft money donations to candidates and parties.

    2. Re:Lots of small donors by NixterAg · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You do realize that the conclusion you've drawn from your above link is a bit disingenuous, don't you? You've got 1 Republican candidate versus 10 Democratic candidates in that graph. The parent poster was correct, the Democrats do indeed have more money from large organizations, such as unions and PACs than any other party. For example, consider this link from the very same site:

      Large contributors: Dem vs. Rep

      One of the biggest embarassments to the Democratic party is that the size of the average donation to their party is larger than the average size contributed to the Republican party. In fact, the mean size of political donations to the RNC during the past election cycle (2000) was about $50. The Democrats claim that the mean size of contributions is unimportant and will not publish it for that reason and because it somehow would invade the privacy of their contributing base in aggregate.

      And if you think that McCain-Feingold has "negated" the impact of unions and PACs, you are very mistaken.

    3. Re:Lots of small donors by twiddlingbits · · Score: 4, Informative

      A December 18, 2002 Washington Times editorial reports that donors giving "small and medium amounts" in 2002 overwhelmingly supported the GOP, while "rich or deep-pocketed givers" hugely backed the Democrats! Those giving $200 to $999: GOP $68 million; Democrats $44 million. Those giving $1,000 to $9,999: GOP $317 million; Democrats $307 million. The "fabulously wealthy" donors of $10,000+ gave $111 million to the GOP - a whopping $29 million less than the $140 million they lavished on the Democrats! Among those who gave $100,000+, the Democrats raised $72 million - more than double the $34 million the GOP took. The fact is that in the 2002 election cycle, those who gave a million dollars or more poured $36 million into the Democrat coffers, and a paltry $3 million into the pockets of the GOP. Again: millionaire donations went Democrat by a 12:1 margin! The two parties took in about the same amount overall - GOP: $384 million; Democrats: $350 million. Just look at the Hollywood left, and you see where the big money goes. In addition, the GOP attracted 40% more individual donors! (George W. Bush set an all-time fund-raising record by collecting the most money from one-thousand-dollar donors in the history of presidential politics.) Far more people giving small amounts exist as contributors to the Republican Party - while Democrats skunked the GOP among the super-rich. That's no surprise, since nine of the twelve richest members of the United States Senate are Democrats.

  5. New media, new politik.. by cliffy2000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just as JFK utilized the nature of the televised debates to triumph over Nixon, Howard Dean will attempt to use the power of the internet in order to take the Democratic nomination.
    Just a prediction.

  6. Mod parent down: off topic! by HyperLemur · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is a discussion about Dean, not Kerry!

  7. Side stepping. by redtoade · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How does this internet fund raising effect the current climate of pro-campaign finance reform?

    According to Kerry, Republicans have been contributing to Dean's campaign on the Internet.. Whether this is true or not, it very well could be. How would we ever know?

    I'd like someone to explain to me how this is actually "grass roots," and not possibly one of the major parties (if not both) giving large sums in small packets under various proxies?

    1. Re:Side stepping. by weddellharbor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I can verify that. Both my wife and I are republicans, and we have contributed to Dr. Dean's campaign. Not for the reasons Mr. Kerry alleges, however. We think Dean has a shot at defeating the incumbent, whom we desperately want to see become a private citizen once more, and the sooner the better.

  8. I belong to no organized political party by FearUncertaintyDoubt · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...I'm a Democrat

  9. One slight problem... The Facts. by sampson7 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What a wonderful theory. If only it fit the facts. Howard Dean has taken the internet and done amazing things with it, but the concept that he is somehow hijacking the Democratic party simply isn't accurate.

    * Dean was governor for 11 years. He got there through traditional Democratic party politics.

    * I remember having a conversation with some Vermont relatives back shortly after the 1996 convention about whether Dean would run in 2000.

    Basically, Dean has been an up-and-coming force in the Democratic party for a number of years. While his outsider rhetoric and outspoken opposition to the war has helped fuel his candidacy, he is still a product of the Democratic party, with its grassroots activists and door-to-door campaigning.

    Lastly -- a quick anecdote. Ralph Reed (formerly of the Christian Coalition, all around brilliant evil-doer, and now chairing Bush's reelection campaign in the Southeast) recently gave a speech talking about how according to all their polls, on the Friday before the election, Bush would have won all of the key battleground states had the election been held then. But instead, the Democratic apparatus came out in force and turned the election into a statistical dead heat. His best line went something like this:

    Republicans think the campaign ends the Friday before the election, after the last television ad is bought, the last billboard put up.

    Democrats believe the election starts the Friday before the election. GOTV (get out the vote) efforts don't really begin in earnest until those last 72 hours. The Democratic machine was what turned a sure Bush victory into a fraudulent mockery of an election (I try to be even handed... really I do, but facts is facts).

    Dean's improbable sprint to internet cash-and-glory will only get him so far. And then the incredibly labor intensive huge Democratic machine will have to take over. The article completely misses that fact. While the internet portion of the campaign may allow for a small control group, the actual work still has to be done by what is essentially a huge national corporation with a precense in every precint in America. That's a large group of people.

    A pretty theory with some definite substance -- just not as clear-cut as the author would have us think.

    1. Re:One slight problem... The Facts. by wytcld · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Dean's improbable sprint to internet cash-and-glory will only get him so far. And then the incredibly labor intensive huge Democratic machine will have to take over.

      If you look at Dean's main Website and official blog you'll notice that it's not just fundraising that's going on. There are 150,000 people involved in Dean Meetups and thousands more have already sent over 100,000 handwritten letters to voters in New Hampsire and Iowa. Plus there are scores of independent websites discussing and promoting Dean from various perspectives. He's got more troops on the ground than the Democratic Party - particularly if you count the union troops he's already recruited as his and not the Democrats', per se.

      What Dean's doing isn't taking over the "Left Wing" or even the Democratic Party so much as it is taking over the middle of the road. He's steamrolling right down the center with a good dose of traditional American common sense (although his invocation of Thomas Paine is a bit lame, at least it's an error in the right direction). He's redefining what the center of the road means.

      And this whole thing about his - and his fans' - "anger" is just off the point. George W. is an idiot, and he's calling the Emperor naked and saying clearly that we should replace him with all haste. People aren't angry at Bush so much as disappointed and disgusted because Bush doesn't live up to the Main Street American values that Dean invokes.

      The cynicism of the corporate-owned press is that we don't have any values to speak of beyond consumerism and the money to support our "American way" habits (and their advertisers). According to this cynicism all politicians are a bit false, so calling them naked is a bit beside the point. Dean's not a cynic, not false, and is using the Net to communicate directly with others who love America and see higher ideals as once again attainable by it, rather than a continued slide into blustering corruption.

      He' proving the Republic still has some blood in its veins. He's no Thomas Jefferson (alas), but could well become the best US president since FDR.

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  10. Re:What About Anne? by Chris+Parrinello · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't consider somebody who resorts to libel and slander to get her point across as somebody who is a "strong woman". I don't think anybody who hates another group of people because their views and opinions differ from her is "strong" or "mature" or any other adjective you could use to describe anybody from either gender who can behave in civil society.

  11. No different by jafac · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This isn't any different than how the NeoConservative movement hijacked the Republican party in the 1980's (under the threat of Soviet Nuclear Annihilation), and how the Christian Wackjob movement hijacked the Reform party in 1999 (under threat of the previous Reform party being the only alternative for rational sane Americans).

    Dean's hijacked the Democratic party on the basis of the Anti-Plutocrat movement. More power to em. If the internet was a key vehicle for that, I'm not really suprised, but since the internet exists for all people, that sword cuts both ways.

    --

    These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  12. Another election that is too close to call.... by G4from128k · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Coase's theory of the relationship between information gathering costs and organization size is interesting, but not the most interesting impact of the internet on politics. One side effect of low-cost high-speed information gathering (and distribution) systems is that the competing parties can adjust their offers to voters using a much more rapid feedback cycle. Intensive use of polls, focus groups, trial balloons, e-mail, etc. let candidates fine tune their message like never before.

    The two party system engenders a careful political calculus of stepping just far enough over the middle to steal an opponent's votes without alienating the extremists in the party. The democrats will try to appear just far enough right of center and the republicans will try to appear just far enough left of center to win. Everyone is shooting for the same 50.1% of the electoral votes and has the information gathering systems and information distribution systems to get it.

    Unless one side achieves a huge advantage through external events (e.g., Dean wills if the economy tanks, weather disrupts voting in a key state, etc.) this will mean more close elections that reveal the statistical inaccuracies of our voting systems. It won't surpirse me if the Supreme Court will again decide the outcome of a presidential election in the near future.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  13. Re:Now, if Dean would just by admiralh · · Score: 3, Informative
    The main question is, how do we know Bush hadn't gotten a warning when the administration redacts 28 (or so) pages from relevant documents and only allows certain selected members of the 9/11 commission access to the information. I, like Dean, am saying that I don't believe Bush knew, but secrecy begets conspiracy theories, and this administration is easily the most secretive since Nixon. The Nixon conspiracy theories turned out to be true (Watergate, anybody?).

    Quoting the link (a Robert Novak column)

    In his Dec. 1 interview on NPR's "The Diane Rehm Show," Dean was asked about allegations that President Bush is suppressing information that he was warned about the 9/11 terrorist attacks. "The most interesting theory that I have heard so far . . . ," Dean responded, "is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis." This received scant media attention (except for Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer), but Democratic politicians shuddered.

    Dean was given a chance to back off six days later by Chris Wallace, debuting as "Fox News Sunday's" moderator. "I don't believe that," the candidate said, then added: "But we don't know, and it'd be a nice thing to know." He concluded: "Because the president won't give information to the Kean Commission, we really don't know what the explanation is." After playing to Bush-haters who listen to National Public Radio, Dean repeated the same canard to Fox's Sunday morning mainstream viewers.


    The other interesting thing here is to consider the source. Novak was the journalist who outed CIA agent Valerie Plame. Also, notice how it's the "Bush-haters" who listen to NPR, but "mainstream viewers" who watch Fox News's Sunday morning news.

    Krauthammer also misrepresented Dean's interview on Hardball when Chris Matthews asked Dean if Deam would break up Fox. Everybody, including Dean started laughing, and Dean jokingly answered "On an ideological basis, yes." Anybody who was watching the show knew he was joking, plus the transcripts indicated [LAUGHTER]. But Krauthammer used the famous ellipsis (...) to eliminate the [LAUGHTER], and then criticized Dean for being "unhinged", which seems to be the current right-wing meme that is going around.

    Hopelessly pedantic since 1963.
    --
    Hopelessly pedantic since 1963.
  14. Re:OMG by sheldon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'll bitch, cause I think we should have finished the job in Afghanistan. Instead we diverted forces over into Iraq, and it hasn't gained us anything. That's what I was saying back last year, it's what numerous other people were saying, it was what General Clark testified before Congress saying. The choices weren't "Invade Iraq" or "Let terrorists take over", we had other options. Don't listen to the Republican spin.

    Look, ultimately we were going to have to deal with Iraq because sanctions don't work. But Colin Powell admitted in 2001 that we had Hussein under control and there was no threat of weapons... link

    But really that's all water under the bridge now anyway. We're in there, we've got to fix it. I don't like what's happening over there, and I'll be damned if I let the prick who created this mess be rewarded with reelection.

  15. Strawman by Yartrebo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Man, is that a strawman if I ever did see one.

  16. Re:OMG by Skjellifetti · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just compare the planning for the NATO interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo with the near total lack of planning for the intervention in Iraq. One example is to compare the large number of civilian police that were lined up and waiting to move into Kosovo immediately after the conflict. There were no pre-war efforts made to recruit international civilian police for post-conflict Iraq.

    And no, this isn't a case of 20/20 hindsight. I spent 6 years in a U.S. Army Reserve Civil Affairs Bn. The professionals in the Army who know how to plan for and handle post-conflict problems were simply ignored by Rumsfeld. The outcome was frightningly obvious to those of us who have done this sort of work professionally. The Bush Administration is paying the price for their hubris.