Money Problems May Derail First U.S. MagLev Train

PSaltyDS writes "The Virginian Pilot is reporting on the trials and tribulations of what was supposed to be the first MagLev train in regular use in the U.S. The MagLev Project was to cover a portion of the Old Dominion University campus, and start service in 2002, but after $14 million spent, it has yet to carry a single passenger. In the article, several engineering types seem to say the same thing, something like 'A great idea that is just too hard to do without an unlimited budget.' Is a maglev train an impractical fantasy like the personal flying car?"

Comments

If I'm Not Mistaken

[FractusMan]

Don't the Japanese already have one? What do the Japanese have that the US does not, to allow them to create a MagLev?

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[foniksonik]

Not just Japan, also China soon, Germany now and others on the way to be sure. It's not the money. It's the lack of interest from those who have the money. 14 million is nothing. MagLev won't happen until a big project calls for it., a big project with a big budget and a big return on investment.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[Fnkmaster]

Very high population density and relatively small distance between urban centers combined with a willingness to throw away old conventions to make way for progress?

For example, here in the Northeast, the Boston-New York-Washington DC corridor would be a prime target for a Maglev train - the passenger volume is there, the airports are a huge hassle with congestion, weather problems in the winter, and massive traffic issues (driving to Logan in Boston or JFK in New York - ugh). Instead, we have legislation in Connecticut that prevents trains from going faster than 75 miles per hour for "safety reasons", so Amtrak blows a couple billion dollars on the sleek looking "Acela" trains, which go barely faster than the normal old fashion trains running the express routes. You shave about 30-40 minutes off of your travel time Boston to New York, and pay 3 times as much.

So instead they've had to market it as business class travel and sell it based on amenities instead of speed. Pure insanity. What we need is legislation and engineering working together to get a real high-speed train system down this heavy traffic corridor in place as a proof of concept AND proof of economical viability, so the price per mile can come down enough to build similar capability for longer runs.

Maglev or no, there's no technical reason that I'm aware of that high speed trains aren't running this corridor, just a lack of creative problem solving effort and cooperation between government and industry to get the damned thing built.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[benmcgruer]

While I'm not familiar with the demographics of the trial area in the States, the Japanese has three major points which allow them to utilize high-cost public transport effectively.

1) V. High Population Density. This allows you build public transportation routes at a low distance (cost) per passenger.

2) Public Transport Culture. They are used to public transport as a reliable, effective and convenient method of travel. As in Australia, the US still relies a personal cars as the most convenient method of travel.

3) There's already huge overhead on materials and other expenses in Japan, such that the cost of additional technology becomes less significant. This is the same reason why your mobile phone has so many features, while you're lucky if your landline phone has caller id.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[kryonD]

Hmmm...me thinks this guy has never been to Japan.

Nobody!, and I mean nobody spends money like the Japanese. Primarily from aspects of their culture such as usually holding parties in restaurants rather than the home like western countries, the sheer number of occasions where gift giving is appropriate, and no less than a dozen major festivals held each year. Japanese economy problems are mainly stemming from corruption in the major banks that is still being cleaned up and an overly inflated cost of living that drives down tourism.

The reason why Japan is in the lead for a useful Maglev, is because they already have a society built around the reliable usage of trains. I've been to Tokyo at least 15 times and I couldn't even imagine trying to get around that city without trains. The same deal applies to cross country travel. The shinkansen (bullet train) is at least 5 times faster than driving a car and slightly cheaper than flying. Everybody uses them. In the US, I'd bet money that 9 out of 10 average Americans couldn't even guess at the cost of a train ride from New York to D.C. The reason why is because most Americans first learn of passenger travel on a train when they see than Amtrack has derailed once again and dozens of people are dead or in the hospital. Plus in most major cities, I'll cite L.A. and Dallas for examples having been to both, you'll never hear someone respond to a complaint on the terrible traffick jams by saying, "yeah, but you can just take the train/subway, it's faster anyways." I'm 29 and most of my friends in Tokyo don't even own cars....they don't feel the need to.

America is fighting a cultural battle on this one. Gas is dirt cheap compared to just about anywhere else in the world and it's just more convenient for every average joe to have a car and drive everywhere. Until this changes, there's not going to be a lot of interest in riding a new high speed, low drag, sexy maglev. Well, other than the geek in all of us wanting to do it once so we can say we did.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[mikerich]

Yes, that's right. As of now, it's cheaper to fly from NY to Boston thank to take the train.

There's a reason for that... airline fuel is not taxed, nor are ticket sales (at least in Europe), nor are airline purchases, airport construction is subsidised by government funding as are the links to connect them to the rest of the transport system.

If trains could get the same tax breaks as the airline industry has been pigging on for the last sixty years things might be different.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:Trains are obsolete

[MrLint]

Well I know from Amtrak as i rode it for 4 years while dating my wife. And the problem is not trains themselves.. Amtrak problem is Amtrak. the NEC (north east corridor) Is extremely busy and would be close to self sustaining, but any money it makes is used to subsidize the running of otherwise dead rail lines elsewhere. In NYS the train from NY to albany, montreal, and buffalo are nearly always full. So the passengers are there.

But when you get an organization like amtrak, that launches a supposedly 'high speed' service (acela) that is only 15 minutes faster than the normal train on the same route and costs you twice as much to ride, and cost several millions to build, and was late on its maiden voyage (i think it even broke down). Well This is not a problem with train being obsolete, its a problem with the operator, the operator in this case is Amtrak.

I have about a millions seething hate stories about Amtrak. remind me to tell you one some time.

Re:Trains are obsolete

[Fnkmaster]

Agreed 100% on Amtrak. I think the problem is a combination of Amtrak being Amtrak, and the lack of governmental support for Amtrak. The fucking Acela is capable of operating at 125+ MPH, but the state of Connecticut apparently limits its speed legally to 75 MPH. Mind you, this is also Amtrak's fault for not working together with government to sort all this shit out and come up with a technically AND legally sound solution before blowing billions in government subsidized and private capital on stupid projects like this.

Re:Impractical Fantasy? Japan, Britain, Germany...

[geekoid]

When deciding if something in imparactical, you have to look at what need it is filling.

Perhaps THIS is of a MagLev is impractical?

Also, what was the end cost of those systems?

Just because they exost, doesn't make them practical.

OTOH, perhaps it was a mismanagement of funds.

Re:Stupidity is...

[Jordy]

There are significant differences between the *operating* speed of a MagLev and of a conventional train.

A MagLev can run at 581 kph as its top speed and its intended operating speed is 500 kph. This is partly because of its acceleration rate and partly due to the infrastructure. It is also much much quieter allowing it to be run closer to commercial/residential buildings.

The TGV has the current top record for a conventional train at a speed of 515 kph. However, it operates at a max of 220 kph. The JR Central line in Japan operates at about 270 kph.

Now, I'm not sayinng that running a short track MagLev was the brightest thing in the world, but for a long run (San Francisco to LA for instance), it can easily outpace a plane after you take into account the thirty minutes you have to wait to get on and off.

Plus, no one is going to crash a MagLev into a building.

A really stupid project from the beginning

[Animats]

Realize how lame a system this is even if it works. It's one car, on a single track, going back and forth over 0.8 mile, in a straight line, at a top speed of 40MPH, on a college campus. Why bother? Japanese, Chinese, German, and British maglevs of greater length and higher speed have already been built.

The Birmingham airport maglev (1984-1995) was more ambitious. And it was so expensive to maintain that it was replaced with a cable-driven system.

The only maglev system being proposed that makes any economic sense is the link from Orlando Airport to Disney World. Disney wants to build that so that their customers bypass all other attractions and go directly to Disney property.

Maglev Good!. This project, Really Bad.

[strangedays]

Ok, so I forced myself to read the entire article, not easy, its a collection of confused finger pointing, and poor journalistic sound bites, sole intent to fill a news article. Zero Meaningful Content..

To summarize :
They are concerned about how the project was managed.
Concerned that the investment may not get repaid.
There are problems with the control system (not the magnetic levittation system itself note)
The assets are apparently a series of patents. Thats odd really, considering this is a tewenty year old technology.
The board and the university may have screwed up, they didn't put appropriate bonds in place, so now they are all nervous as to who gets blamed.
A board member now blames the technology, saying that others (Japan) could not make it work. This is incorrect.
Another guy refused to invest because of problems with the company (not the technology).
Maglev trains are described as "floats on a cushion of air". Duh. Fine journalism.
FRA has issued a stop work order, as usual asleep at the wheel. Way way way too late IMHO.

Overall, they all completely mismanaged this, tried to invent new stuff that doesn't work, and now need another two million dollar handout to get out of the hole they dug for us, the victim taxpayers.

Oh, and in the process they tarnish the reputation of a transportation technology we actually need.

Thanks for nothing ODU and FRA guys. Do us a favor, go fire yourselves.

Re:Trains are obsolete

[smchris]

Actually, I've done San Fran to Minneapolis, Minneapolis to Baltimore (twice) and about 14 trips Minneapolis to Chicago by Amtrak and it seemed like most seats were full. And most of the trips were pleasant experiences. A restaurant, sightseeing car and a sleeper is my way to see the U.S. pass by. And I like _walking_ to a hotel in the center of downtown instead if being stuck in some butt-ugly hotel park surrounding the airport.

Before you knock Amtrak outside the NW corridor, you know what? THEY DON'T OWN THE TRACKS!! High speed trains -- you've got to be kidding. The _track_ is so bad between Minneapolis and Chicago, several times we've gone about 25 mph for stretches of miles at a time. Woo Hoo! We ain't becomin' no 3rd world country.