Boston's Big Dig Finally Open

techiemac writes "I just saw a news story on yahoo about Boston's Big Dig finally opening. The Big Dig is considered by many to be the largest modern urban construction project ever!"

Comments

Drove through this morning.

[sammyo]

15 Billion for a tunnel. Drive in. Stop the car, draw a chalk line arround the car. The cost of that space is more than you will make in your life. Probably more than all your close friends will make in there ENTIRE lives. Someone made a killing!

Re:Drove through this morning.

[Anonymous Coward]

What's even more sad about this is that a large (perhaps the largest) part of the $15 billion that went into this project came from the pockets of citizens who are never going to use the tunnel. The part of the state that doesn't live in Boston has been financing this whole thing for I can't even tell you how many years, and we're never going to see any payoff for it. This was a largely tax-payer funded project, and the majourity of us taxpayers don't live in Boston. While the money was flowing in to make Boston-area commuters' lives a little easier, Western Mass public schools have fallen apart (class sizes at my former high school have doubled in 3 years to an average of over 40 students per class), city and state services are being cut back further and further (public works projects have all but ceased, near as I can tell), and OUR roads are falling apart because there isn't any money left to fix them with.

I'm all in favour of Big Projects and Big Engineering, but at some point you have to question why you're doing it. There's just no reason why the Big Dig had to be so expensive, or so big. I keep asking myself, "where's the beef?" ("where are the WMD's?"). Why did the State drag us into a project that benefits the few at the expense of the many? And (worse), how did we (the many) let them get away with it for so long?

-Another Disgruntled Mass-hole

Re:Drove through this morning.

[the argonaut]

While I would agree with most that the difference between projected cost and actual costs is pretty insane, people do seem to miss a couple of key points for at least some of the price tag discrepancy:

1. 2.4 billion dollars was the projected cost in 1985. Almost 20 years between that initial proposal and completion of the whole thing. Since when has the government (or even big business, although examples from their world are pretty hard to find since the shortsightedness of corporations generally prevents them from even thinking of something this long term) been able to accurately predict costs over this length of time?

2. Changes in the project over that period of time probably had a lot to do with the change in costs along with some amount of legitimate cost overruns for unforeseen engineering problems.

3. $2.4b was a bullshit number. A friend in Boston who was living there at the time said nobody with any common sense believed they could do what they were promising for that price, and were pretty certain that it the number they came up with was just to get the project sold. Kinda like a lot of George' W's BS budget predictions to sell his Medicare "deform" plan (Not to single out Shrub though, since this is common practice of most politicians of both parties, and presidents in particular; he just happens to be the current idiot-in-chief and poster boy.)

Of course, in the end it's all irrelevant; no matter what the price tag, it's a waste of money. Give it 5-10 years (if even that), and what will you have? A gridlocked freeway through downtown. Kinda like you had before. Except you won't have to look at it.

But in any case, it's a waste of your money and mine - with that kind of money you could get a new nuclear sub, a B2 bomber, AND an aircraft carrier (sans aircraft)

But I thought you were implying wasting money was a bad thing? Why would we want all that useless crap?

Re:Drove through this morning.

[amabbi]

as a former mass. resident myself (cambridge), i think that's crap. the majority of funds for the big dig were taken from federal highway funds... i can't find a definitive link online, but i think the feds were supposed to pay for the entire shebang, but cost overruns (to the tune of $6b!) were the responsibility of the commonwealth. furthermore, education funds are primarily taken from local property taxes, so the decline of your local schools is likely due to the declining value of real estate in your area, not some urban renewal project 250 miles away. the need for the big dig is obvious; the lack of quantity and quality of highways to boston are well documented. i'm not trying to defend the big dig administration ($6b over budget and 5 years late is obviously, obviously unacceptable) but to blame your neighborhood problems on it is quite short sighted.

Re:Drove through this morning.

[Quobobo]

But in any case, it's a waste of your money and mine - with that kind of money you could get a new nuclear sub, a B2 bomber, AND an aircraft carrier (sans aircraft)!

And this gets modded up? I don't know about you, but I'd rather pay for a massive improvement to transportation in my area than a few massive vehicles designed for killing.

Re:Drove through this morning.

[umofomia]

This is a big misconception about the funds. Federal highway funds are used for funding interstate highways. However, during the 50s, 60s, and 70s, Massachusetts didn't see any of that while most other states were able to receive the funds. All of the interstate highways built during that period were funded using Massachusetts money.

When the Big Dig was conceived in the 80s, the only reason why Congress voted for it (and overrode Reagan's veto) was because of the fact that Massachusetts never received any federal highway funding in the first place.

Also, the cost overruns were mostly due to two factors:

1. The decision of former Governor Weld to reopen the environmental impact study even though it was already completed. When Weld came to power, he gutted the entire transportation administration that oversaw the project under Dukakis. This ended up delaying the project for several years (making up the majority of the cost overruns) and in the end, the conclusion was exactly the same as the original impact study.
2. The installation of several high-speed optical communications lines. This I feel was a justified cost overrun. During the late 90s, there was intense demand for high-speed communications lines to downtown and they had the opportunity to install them while constructing the Big Dig. If they had not done this, most likely the entire thing would have needed to be torn up again a couple years later to install the lines at an even greater cost.

Re:Drove through this morning.

[Kunta Kinte]

But in any case, it's a waste of your money and mine - with that kind of money you could get a new nuclear sub, a B2 bomber, AND an aircraft carrier (sans aircraft)!

And this gets modded up? I don't know about you, but I'd rather pay for a massive improvement to transportation in my area than a few massive vehicles designed for killing.

Maybe grandparent of this post should have included a "sarcasm ahead" warning.

Re:Drove through this morning.

[2short]

"15 Billion for a tunnel."

False. Almost 15 Billion for the entire project, of which the Ted Williams Tunnel (which I presume you're talking about since it's the most obvious tunnel involved) is only one part. Actually, that tunnel is possibly the most straight forward (i.e. cheapest per distance) part of the project.

It is another part of the project, the Fort Point Channel crossing that has a good claim to being the most expensive peice of roadway (per distance) in the world. It's one of the quick little tunnels on the way to the long one where you didn't know for sure if you were in a real tunnel. It was really expensive because, while going under a little water it had to simultaneously dodge a subway tunnel, and about half the major water/gas/electric/sewer/whatever lines coming into the city, without interupting any of them in the process.

Anyhow, the project is a lot more than a tunnel. It's a whole bunch of tunnels, a bridge, a bunch of highway, a gaggle of overpasses and interchanges, and what I'd consider the "main" part: the new depressed roadway for the central artery itself. See, you've got a fantastically congested elevated highway passing over a bunch of highly congested surface streets right through the midst of downtown in one of the oldest cities in the country (i.e. new things have been built and rebuilt on and under this ground about 5 bajillion times). And you want build a replacement highway underneath all this, without interupting traffic on either of the two levels above you, or messing up any of the other stuff already underground there. Good luck doing it cheap.

Re:Drove through this morning.

[jonbrewer]

But it's just not a tunnel ... it's a series of tunnels and bridges, maybe 30 in all. It replaces the core highways in the downtown area. The project also includes upgrades to the subway system, surface streets, and much improved airport access. In addition, a lot of the old city's infrastructure (telephone, sewer, water, electric) were upgraded.

Having lived (owned property, resided, paid taxes, the whole sheebang) in Boston in the recent past, I can say with confidence that the project didn't do anything for the subway (The T), for airport access (unless you drive), and certainly didn't improve any infrastructure.

After all those years and billions one still cannot easily get from South Station (or Back Bay, or North Station) to the Airport. Or how about any of said stations to Harvard Square? Or how about Harvard Square to Back Bay or Copley Place? Never mind getting from Harvard to Boston College.

The whole idea of building a bunch of gigantic roads, bridges, and tunnels to bring individual SUVs and bimbo-boxes into (and under) the middle of a large urban area is just about as wrong-headed as you can get. The dig made a lot of politicians, union leaders, and construction companies very rich, and set Boston about 20 years back in terms of being a livable city.

Sure, I learned to be a kamakazi biker and got some great rally-car miles under my belt getting from home (Brighton) to Mass General (via BU Bridge + Mem drive is actually faster than Storrow), but that did nothing more than ding my car, scratch my wheels, ruin my suspension, and drain my wallet paying for parking (and parking tickets), insurance, and repairs to the tune of $5k/year. (on top of car payments!)

I see no reason to celebrate its completion (or whatever milestone we're talking about). When I lived there I was hoping the dig would finish just so I could try it out, but man, a quick subway ride from home or work to the airport would have been much more appreciated.

This things been underway for as long...

[downix]

as I can remember. And I'm nearing my 30's now.

Some folk dismiss it as being a waste, but unlike them I've driven in Boston Traffic. The Big Dig is turning a city that was having its traffic issue choking its very lifeblood out of it into a revitalized effort.

That $15 billion did more than just provide some tunnels and bridges, it provided for countless kids education as their mommys and daddys had steady work. It gave thousands of hard workers the money needed to save it away rather than rely social security and medicare. It was more than a public work, it revitalized whole sections of the economy while simultaneously improving the traffic flow in and around one of the oldest cities in the US.

Re:Big Dig = Giant Boondoggle for Special Interest

[Enry]

For a one party state, we've had Republican governors for about the past 10 years. Libertarians have a pretty good foothold in a lot of areas as well. Complaining about people like Sen. Kennedy ignores the fact that Republicans don't run anyone against him. When someone does (Jack E. Robinson?), they get no support from Republican party officials. When Weld ran against Kerry, I voted Kerry because I thought Weld would do a better job as governor than senator.

You want Taxachusetts? Check out NY. Over 8% sales tax, high property tax rates, high income tax rates. It costs more to drive on the NYS Thruway than it does for the MS Turnpike. About the only thing going for NY is the fact that they have EZ-Pass run by the state instead of the pseudo-commercial Fastlane.

The Big Dig is a long time coming, and should be worthwhile in the end. There was a lot of innovation involved in construction and hopefully that investment will pay off in lower expenses for similar projects in the future. Don't forget that most of Boston's square footage didn't exist when certain tea boxes were thrown into the harbor.

Either way you put it

[goon america]

It used to be that people found giant public works projects to be a source of national pride. Nowadays, people feel impugned by large public works projects to their personal sense of power. That's my money they're spending!

Either way, it's the same emotion. I don't know which, if either, is "right", but you should at least keep that in mind when evaluating arguments about this sort of problem. (You can get the same feeling from reading a lot of books as you can from having a lot of guns; it's all just power.)

Re:Big Dig = Giant Boondoggle for Special Interest

[jdreed1024]

These are the same rants that people have been on for years. I am also a taxpayer and resident in Massachusetts, and I think the Big Dig is one of the greatest projects we've ever undertaken.

There's no way the Central Artery could have been "renovated". The structures is made up of concrete and lead paint. Any renovation would require a huge costs in abatement and environmental cleanup, and you can't widen the elevated structure without demolishing more buildings, which would be a bad idea.

Have you ever even driven on the old artery? It was a fucking mess. It was also one of the most unsafe stretches in the Interstate Highway System. 10 exits in just over a mile - weave lanes of 600 feet, narrow clearance, no breakdown lanes - it was a mess.

The tunnel also gives Boston the ability to mend the scar caused by the elevated artery. The city was divided - a city needs linearity in order to function. Having hundreds of streets cut off by the elevated artery diminishes the city as a whole.

Sure, there were cost overruns and embezzlements, like there are with any large government project ($50 hammers for the Navy, anyone?), but the benefits for the city as a whole (and it's not just to raise rents by improving the view - much of boston's residential land does not abut the artery corridor) will be great.

Re:Big Dig = Giant Boondoggle for Special Interest

[Reverberant]

Original projected cost: $2.5 billion Final cost: $16 billion

One point that is often missed when people trot out these figures: the original "Big Dig" was essentially just the 3rd Harbor (Ted Williams) Tunnel and a few local improvements. Certainly a lot of the cost increases can probably be attributed to inefficiencies (such as the infamous fireboat), but much of the cost increase is due to an increased scope (eg. the I-93 tunnel), inflation, and unforeseen difficulties (for example the tunnel jacking and soil freezing operations ran into major problems).

Once this thing got started, no one in power was going to say, "STOP! It's costing too much!"

While no one really wanted to spend $16B, no one in Boston was going to say "stop" simply because we are sick of sitting in traffic 16 hours per day

Really, the elevated artery could have been renovated to provide the same benefits---minus the prettiness---that the Big Dig provides, and at a much reduced cost.

It would have been significantly cheaper (in absolute dollars) to renovate the elevated artery, but the long-term cost to the region would have been devastating since you would have to shut down the major north/south artery through Boston to do it (and no, moving traffic to an already overcrowded I-95 wouldn't have helped).

Where's the vision?

[s20451]

Why does everybody hate the big dig? Honestly, this is probably the most visionary project that any government has undertaken in a generation. Yes, it was expensive, mistakes were made, and it ended up being a lot harder to do than anyone predicted. But in the end you have a beautiful city, which will stay beautiful for a century. Nobody is going to dare proposing a huge, ugly, elevated highway through Boston anytime soon.

I don't live in Boston, but I lived in Toronto for six years. The Gardiner Expressway is an ugly elevated highway that neatly isolates downtown from the waterfront. So because the waterfront is basically a separate region from the city, it's all ugly vacant lots, polluted dock land or steel-jungle condos, right up to the water. No parks, no public space, just a lot of nastiness. There has been talk of burying it (and the big dig is held out as an example), but city council can rarely agree on the day of the week, much less spending $10 billion. Besides, with the condos going up, the opportunity has already been lost.

I predict that in 100 years, the big dig will be considered a marvel of engineering -- the modern equivalent of a cathedral.

Re:Where's the vision?

[Transcendent]

I predict that in 100 years, the big dig will be considered a marvel of engineering -- the modern equivalent of a cathedral.

I already concider it a marval of engineering. If anyone knew half of what they had to go through to get that project complete they would think the same thing.

I don't live in boston, but anyone who complains about how long it took or how much it cost is just a business major / politician who simply looks at numbers and not what those numbers mean. Anyone who has an appreciation for what went into this project and the final result is a true engineer, artist, or an appreciator of philosophy.

...and which one those types of people do you think is responsible for growth and betterment of our civilization?

Re:Big Dig = Giant Boondoggle for Special Interest

[WarmBoota]

Screw it - I'm ditching my mod points. I lived for two years in Boston and I have to say it was awesome.

• The city is wonderful and there are tons of free events.
• The city is electric in the spring and summer with public performances everywhere.
• The public sailing and events at the Hatch Shell are great.
• The restaurants are great (especially the North End)
• the public transportation is incredible. You can get just about any place in the city for $0.85
• Taxachussetts? I was able to deduct my apartment rent from my state taxes and I actually got a return. I had the same amount withheld from my PA taxes and (don't forget the 1% local taxes) and I never get a cent back.
• Car traffic was a nightmare and desperately in need of remedy.