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Californians To Vote On Largest DNA Database
mpthompson writes "California law enforcement officials are backing a proposed ballot measure that would give them authority to operate the largest DNA database in the world and collect DNA samples from everyone arrested or convicted on felony charges."
2006 - Every baby born(for thier own saftey)
2008 - Every Person who commits a Crime (We HAVE to track them!)
2012 - Every Citizen (you have nothing to hide do you Comrade?)
Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
Oh, it'll only be used for felonies.
Two years pass
Felonies, and extreme, non felonious cases.
Two years pass
Felonies, extreme non felonious cases, and lookin funny.
What's that? Why, of course, we'd never use your toll bridge fast-pass to log your comings and goings!
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
I just wonder how long before states, start selling the databases to insurance companies to help with the expenses. States already sell personal information, what could be more personal, than your DNA.
It's FELLONS (sic).
It's felons and anyone arrested on felony charges. Whether or not they're subsequently convicted.
If someone is subsequently found not guilty, how is that person different than any other innocent person walking down the street? Why should his DNA be in the database and yours not be?
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
So when all white or black or hispanic males, ages 25-32, in the City of Los Angeles fit the description of a suspect then anyone of them can be forced to be DNA fingerprinted?
He dismissed the ACLU's concerns about invasion of privacy as "a straw man argument," pointing out that the measure has extensive protections that purge DNA information when a suspect or convict is exonerated.
I hope someone will look very closely at these "extensive protections". There have already been many cases where police have demanded DNA samples from innocent people. The DNA test exonerated them but the police refused to then destroy the DNA fingerprint. Also I have no doubts that the police would run blanket checks against other cases in which the innocent donors are not suspects. When a match comes up positive they will claim that it was done "accidentally". I bet that DNA fingerprints would never actually get purged either due to "computer errors".
On the other hand is a huge privacy issue. While it is true that the innocent SHOULD have nothing to fear the sad fact is that this is not true. Nor can we assume that even if it is true now that it will remain true in the future. The germans had a registration of who had what religion in the 1930's. We all know how that ended. Can you be sure who is in charge of the US or any country proposing a similar scheme in 10 years? That is now 3 elections away.
I have little patience with people just concerned with their privacy. Most of them are just people who don't want to be caught should they ever decide to commit a crime. Guess what sherlock that is part of the reason for introducing such a thing. "Commmit a crime and we will find you" as opposed to now, "Commit a crime and maybe we will find you". The higher the chance of getting caught the more people will be deterred.
On the other hand I do have my doubts if such a system in future might not be abused. So on the one hand yes everyones dna logged will make life a lot harder for criminals. It will also make life a lot easier for anyone seeking to oppress non-criminals in the future. Or people we consider now to be innocent but who might be made to be guilty in the future.
The answer? I don't have one. Anyone who claims they have one are lying. Don't believe those who guarantee the safe use cause they can't. Don't believe the privacy people cause they are not now the victims of crime. The moment their child is murdered they will change their tune faster then a prisoner on his way to the chair.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Lots of states sell personal data (driver's license info, etc.) to private parties. There's certainly no federal genetic privacy law, and I don't know if California has a state law limiting disclosure of genetic information. In the absence of such a law, what's to stop a state from selling potentially lucrative genetic information to well-heeled insurers and credit reporting agencies?
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
The fewer people who are in the database, the fewer choices are available to a forger. When everyone is in the database, nobody is off limits.
And in doing so, either (A) draw attention to yourself as a witness, or (B) raise the suspicions of a frame-up with a needlessly anonymous tip.
Saying it doesn't make it so. When everyone is in the database, forging anyone's blood is possible without any further involvement or the stigma of an anonymous tip.
It isn't that politians are evil. At least not most of them anyway, chuckle. Most of them try to do the right thing. What you are missing is that there are competing interests and motivations, all valid.
In a genuine slippery slope situation there is a constant pull in one direction not for evil reasons, but from well intentioned people striving for "noble purposes". Everyone has their pet project and sees a way that one small step down the hill is a step towards a "noble goal". A way to help police catch criminals. A way to prevent crime from happening. A way to catch dead beat-dads. A way to protect the children. A way to fight terrorism. A way to raise money. A way to fight discrimination. A way to protect the enviornment. A way to stimulate the economy. A way to fight piracy. A way to stop hackers. A way to stop the spread of disease. A way to simply make their job easier. And on and on and on and on.
And that's without even considering less-than-noble motivations, special interest lobbying, and political football games.
There are many different sorts of slppery slopes. Sometimes you are better of never setting foot on that slope. Sometimes you drive a stake into the ground and refuse to step past it no matter how noble the motivation - a hard solution to enforce for an arbitrary law the legislature can rewrite at will. Many times you get stuck with an eternal war fought between opposing noble intentions shoving the line back and forth. And sometimes you just have to give up and let it fall to the bottom taking the bad with the good.
Slippery slope is a real problem. This sort of DNA database sure looks like a valid slippery-slope situation to me. There are a million ways to use it and add to it for "good purposes". Every year the legislature will repeatedly face this issue, people coming to them with a problem in one hand and a solution in the other hand. Solutions that all involve expanding the database and its uses.
Is there any inviolatable line we can drawn? Do we want to give up and simply have public database of everyone revealing every single gene? Do we want to fight an eternal legal war between increasing usages shoving the limits one way and privacy advocates shoving the other way? It is very hard to "undo" any expansion of a database or an expansion of its use. Do we even want to step on that slope at all?
The fact that legisators want to do the "right thing" is part of the problem itself.
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
2006 - Every baby born(for thier own saftey)
Voluntary sample/Registration kits are already available and recommended in the name of safety. It will likely become mandatory by 2006
2008 - Every Person who commits a Crime (We HAVE to track them!)
A more likely date will be 2005 when DNA collection becomes part of the standard booking process, as finger rpinting is today. Note that this process occurs before you even get to court, guilt or innocence is irrelavent.
2012 - Every Citizen (you have nothing to hide do you Comrade?)
With the rapid advancement of the previous two dates, this will likely occur by 2008 when DNA registration will become part of the drives license or voter registration process.
It'll be interesting to see when Gattaca-esque circumvention attempts start showing up routinely.
Now that PATRIOT allows law enforcement to enter your home without telling you, it would be pretty easy for them to lift a hair and plant it wherever they want. If they have your DNA on file, they can plant the hair, "discover" it at the crimescene, run it against their database and grab you...whereas, without having you in the database, planting the hair would do them no good unless they came up with some other probable cause.
And the idea here is to put anyone they arrest (for a felony) in the database, not just anyone convicted. Ie., a lot of innocent people. If they get this through, I'll bet you they add misdemeanor arrests later.
Not that the FBI and whatnot ever abuses their power, right?
It's notoriously easy to get a false positive on a DNA test if the lab isn't following proper procedure. The ways in which fingerprint tests can be screwed up area much easier to understand for laymen and easier to avoid, too. Courts, labs, juries and judges also have much more experience with fingerprints.