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Exporting Myself?
sennomo asks: "Years ago, I was told that I needed a degree to get a programming job anymore. So, I went to college. A couple of years and thousands of dollars later, there was still no job for me, in spite of my all-powerful B.A. in C.S. The most common explanation I get is that jobs are being exported out of the country. So, I've decided to export myself. Moving to higher ground, so to speak. I have heard a few others discuss this, but how many are actually trying it? And how is it going for them? Are there any hotspots for American expatriate programmers?"
Why not just accept less money than you've been asking? Look for non-profits and similar who need programmers but can't pay competitive salaries. Then, when you build up some experience, you might be worth something more than the paper the degree is printed on and won't have trouble if you decide to look elsewhere for work.
Go for a design job. There's plenty of those if you're good (did you have good grades in your CS classes?). Lean towards the Science part of your degree instead of trying to pimp the programming skills you learned as a side effect. Who wants to be just a programmer anyway? It's like manual labor for your fingers.
Also, be an example for others. You are living proof that you should get a BS in computer science, not a BA. Yes, employers notice, and also, the background courses for a science degree will actually relate to real world exprience in your field, where the types of employers you're looking for probably don't care in the least about the non-CS stuff you did for your BA.
Years ago, I was told that I needed a degree to get a programming job anymore.
They lied.
So, I went to college. A couple of years and thousands of dollars later, there was still no job for me, in spite of my all-powerful B.A. in C.S.
Sucker.
The most common explanation I get is that jobs are being exported out of the country.
Awfully convenient explanation, huh? Just in time for the retirement of the "Bad economy" excuse.
So, I've decided to export myself. Moving to higher ground, so to speak.
Or, so to hope. Higher ground. Yep. That's what I'd call a third world country.
Here is the painful truth - if you had anything to offer, you'd be employed. My company is hiring like crazy, but we are extremely selective (about 1 in 100 candidates pass the tests.)
Actually, let me back it up a little and not be so terribly insulting. The situation is this - companies are hiring, but they are scared of repeating the bust. One of the least talked about reasons that everything has fallen apart in the tech sector is the sheer worthlessness of so many of the people in it. I have worked with some of the worst programmers I can imagine over the last three years. These people will be shed, but it will be a painful process.
My advice is this: suck it up, do some hobby programming, build a portfolio of samples (nothing sells a candidate like good sample code), and keep on plugging. You'll have to prove yourself.
The whole expatriation thing is a terrible idea. If you go through with it, have fun.
Anonymous Hoser
I'm in no better of a situation, with my all-powerful BSEE degree. But I am fully confident that no matter where you go, the best opportunities will always be in the U.S. Why else do you think everyone tries to come here to work?
We have an abundance of industries, no bloody civil wars at the moment, a great environment of free speech, and an astronomical average standard of living. Even if you don't get a programming job right now, you'll still be better off than most of the rest of the world. Assuming you could even manage to arrange it, consider the conditions you would have to accept. Work 14 hour days in cramped conditions with 100 people speaking a different language, make perhaps 10% of what you would make in the US, live in a tiny apartment in foreign city, and face termination at any moment because there are 100 more people waiting outside every day to take your place. Yeah, people might joke that it's already this way in the U.S., but that's just not the case. Even if you sell auto parts, or pour concrete, you're still better off.
The economy IS turning around. I'm optimistic even though I was laid off right before Thanksgiving. At this point, 1.5 years of mechanical engineering experience isn't really helping me get an electrical engineering position, but I am confident that I will find something. If you leave now, you might miss out on our next boom. And this one might be real growth, not a bubble of hopes and gambles by investors.
Maybe our garden-variety programming jobs are all moving overseas. OK...maybe this is just a natural progression? We used to make shoes and T-shirts here, right? And then the other developing countries said "Hey, we can do that!" and we moved on to more complex and technological things. Now the other countries have had a chance to pick up some engineering textbooks and say "Hey, we can do that too!" So now it's time to find something even more specialized and technologically advanced. I think that the future of engineering in the U.S. is the consulting specialist. Boilerplate work is already being taken over by other developing countries; here we have to target the jobs that are one-of-a-kind, bordering on actual research instead of just application. I may be wrong, but that's one possibility.
Anyway, get some job, or get some more school. All of this engineering talent floating around in the U.S. is a huge untapped resource, and I happen to know that the U.S. doesn't let untapped resources just sit there forever.
...
I have a High School degree with only a couple additional formal education classes. I am currently a Senior Software Engineer with a software consulting company that has me in a long term placement at a large multi-national technology firm.
Most every job I have I got through networking. I am president of a local software development group (PC users group for developers) that I attended for years previously. I always try to work with other people to help them so they know I am a resource. I look for opportunities to present at conferences or other groups. I look for writing opportunities and other avenues to promote my skills and abilities.
Sometimes I have worked for far less then I should have for what I was doing, but the result is I have acquired enough experience that my lack of degree is less important. Be willing to start at the bottom and work your way up. The opportunities are there, if you are willing to look.
As an example, I was laid off about a year ago. I had a new job in 2 days, and 3 or 4 other offers within a week. All the offers were from networking. Most the jobs I get interviews through Monster or other listings they say I am over qualified for. Imagine that.
I would eventually like to go to school and get a C.S. degree. But I imagine that I will get my employeer to pay for most of it while they are paying me to work and apply what I learn. Education is a good thing, but it is not what will get you a job.
"Anything is possible with enough programmers, time and pizza." (Substitute caffeine for time as needed.)
A BA in Computer Science is not going to get you a job. I don't know where you got that idea. I recently graduated so I know several people who have a BA, BS or even an MS in computer science and they are terrible programmers. All the degree means is that you took a bunch of courses so you might know something about the Science of CS. It says nothing about your ability to produce quality code though. What got me a job offers are my previous 3 years of web development experience and also some networking - the degree was essentially there for looks.
So what now? Go get an internship or get some sort of experience no matter how little pay because if I were an employer, I would not hire a CS person without some solid experience or who can at least show some good code.
Why does everyone immediately start up the old "those evil foreigners are 'stealing' our jobs and the even eviler bosses are letting them!" argument? For years the USA has been getting a free ride on exchange rates since everyone has to have dollars to buy oil. An overly strong dollar makes all imports (including foreign programmers) incredibly cheap, but makes exports expensive and hard to sell.
The dollar has plummeted on currency markets, so steel workers and programmers should start being thankful that their work is more competitive.
And everyone can be thankful that they have a chance to be patriotic and "buy American" now that all those pesky imports have become so expensive again.
I find many of the replies I've received interesting.
I purposely limited/changed some of my information to try to get more general answers from people than if I had been specific and entirely accurate. For example, I already know what country I'm going to next, but I wanted to see where people thought I ought to go.
I was surprised to see how many guys mentioned working in India. AFAIK foreigners are not allowed to be hired there.
It cracked me up how much people harped on how "crappy" the standard of living is in other countries. The fact is the worst home I ever has was in Pennsylvania, complete with cockroaches, mold, and even sulphur and fecal matter in the water. One guy said that I was "naive"...well, the fact I didn't mention that I have lived in other countries before doesn't mean I didn't.
I also didn't mention that I started working professionally in programming in 1998, after a few years of hobby programming--I'm no spring chicken. I've continued to program as a hobby during my downtime. I signed up with Monster in its first year, and it's never been any help to me.
I didn't mention that I have a son. For me, working isn't all about glamor and a huge $30K salary. (Yes, that is good money for where I live.) It's about making enough money to live on and support him. I'm afraid the local mini-marts don't provide that kind of paycheck.
The one piece of advice I keep getting that seems to ring true is about personal networking...which is why I'm looking forward to relying on nepotism, as soon as I find an influential relative.
(And less relevant, but to be accurate: I have a B.A. in Spanish and a B.S. in Computer Science.)
I don't hold it against anybody who gave me useless advice because I didn't tell them everything about myself. But like I said, I was looking for general answers, and I largely got what I wanted.
Thanks for your comments.
Mi klopodas varbi por Esperanto.
No good. Germany is in an even worse situation in regards to IT employment than the US. While in the US the economy finally seems to take off we over here are far from a turnaround and Germany's economy still is in crisis mode, both spending- and employment-wise
I wish that were the problem. The jobs didn't go away, they just got moved to people I can't compete with because it costs less to live in their country than it does mine.
Like it happened to the garment industry. Like it happened to the auto industry. Like it happened to most manufacturing industries.
And what happened after that? Well, now you can buy a t-shirt for less that the price of a Bic Mac and cars cost a fraction of the average salary. Sure, people lost their jobs and whined about it, but eventually they found other jobs and benefited from the improved living conditions made possible by exporting a lot of jobs to cheaper countries.
At the same time there are a lot of countries with booming economies fueled by exports to the west. Living conditions are improving as salaries increase. Hell, if it wasn't good for them do you think India and China would be so busy promoting foreign trade?
People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this.