Exporting Myself?

sennomo asks: "Years ago, I was told that I needed a degree to get a programming job anymore. So, I went to college. A couple of years and thousands of dollars later, there was still no job for me, in spite of my all-powerful B.A. in C.S. The most common explanation I get is that jobs are being exported out of the country. So, I've decided to export myself. Moving to higher ground, so to speak. I have heard a few others discuss this, but how many are actually trying it? And how is it going for them? Are there any hotspots for American expatriate programmers?"

Comments

Accept less money

[Mr. Darl McBride]

Erm, if you go overseas to work in India or such, your standard of living is going to go way, way, way down.

Why not just accept less money than you've been asking? Look for non-profits and similar who need programmers but can't pay competitive salaries. Then, when you build up some experience, you might be worth something more than the paper the degree is printed on and won't have trouble if you decide to look elsewhere for work.

hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Years ago, I was told that I needed a degree to get a programming job anymore.

They lied.

So, I went to college. A couple of years and thousands of dollars later, there was still no job for me, in spite of my all-powerful B.A. in C.S.

Sucker.

The most common explanation I get is that jobs are being exported out of the country.

Awfully convenient explanation, huh? Just in time for the retirement of the "Bad economy" excuse.

So, I've decided to export myself. Moving to higher ground, so to speak.

Or, so to hope. Higher ground. Yep. That's what I'd call a third world country.

Here is the painful truth - if you had anything to offer, you'd be employed. My company is hiring like crazy, but we are extremely selective (about 1 in 100 candidates pass the tests.)

Actually, let me back it up a little and not be so terribly insulting. The situation is this - companies are hiring, but they are scared of repeating the bust. One of the least talked about reasons that everything has fallen apart in the tech sector is the sheer worthlessness of so many of the people in it. I have worked with some of the worst programmers I can imagine over the last three years. These people will be shed, but it will be a painful process.

My advice is this: suck it up, do some hobby programming, build a portfolio of samples (nothing sells a candidate like good sample code), and keep on plugging. You'll have to prove yourself.

The whole expatriation thing is a terrible idea. If you go through with it, have fun.

Anonymous Hoser

Re:hmmm

[KILNA]

Teaching costs time and money. Trying to train up non-programmers is a cheapskate recipe for disaster. If the project is in any way important or time sensitive, do a good job of picking a couple of knowledgible and driven programmers and pay them well. If the project is worth doing, it's worth doing right. Repeat after me: "There is no such thing as a redundant array of inexpensive programmers".

Let me guess, you manage tech support or some other non-project-based job. Unskilled and eager may work at a variety of tasks, but there has to be a knack for programming for the person to succeed at it. Yes, you just may get a Tiger Woods or Stephen Hawking or Linus Torvalds by scouring the homeless shelters, but the odds ain't good. And you'll never know if things panned out until you put them in the thick of it... you need to see the person actually programming. Which costs time and money you could have just used to hire someone good in the first place.

My advice to the original poster: Prove you're a worthy programmer and employee by doing hard work on things like open source projects before entering the workforce. Don't leave the country unless you have more than just the job shortage as a reason. If you do, go to the UK. They know Americans are hard workers, the work visas are a lot easier to get than here, it's a very American-friendly place to live, and though the cost of living is higher you get about 3 times the amount of vacation/sick pay as here.

Re:Stop looking for "programming" jobs

[mugnyte]

Sorry, but to be a good analyst (this IS the type of "designer" you suggest, correct?), one should put in the time, so to speak, as a programmer for awhile. Nothing is more mismatched than a book-only-learned analyst. They are good at design patterns, concepts of reuse and well-read, but give them a real-world legacy mess (or just an older interface or module) and they suffer a breakdown in productivity. "Here's fix this crappy site in 2 weeks. No you cannot rewrite it."

That "manual labor for your fingers" is actually quality time spent solving a pool of math, logic, algorithm and communication problems. Also, the trials of explaining such tasks, issues and achievements in easy-to-understand words to PHBs is valuable. Don't underestimate simply being a programmer.

To poster: I am guessing you didn't want to live in debt forever, so you skipped the BS and got just the BA. Maybe you can work part time using whatever skills relate to your field, and get the other 2 years over with. Heck, some people make a career out of attending classes just that way. As to your question, I'm at a loss. I'm doubting you'd like living as a programmer in another country...

Wait a bit

[cybermace5]

I'm in no better of a situation, with my all-powerful BSEE degree. But I am fully confident that no matter where you go, the best opportunities will always be in the U.S. Why else do you think everyone tries to come here to work?

We have an abundance of industries, no bloody civil wars at the moment, a great environment of free speech, and an astronomical average standard of living. Even if you don't get a programming job right now, you'll still be better off than most of the rest of the world. Assuming you could even manage to arrange it, consider the conditions you would have to accept. Work 14 hour days in cramped conditions with 100 people speaking a different language, make perhaps 10% of what you would make in the US, live in a tiny apartment in foreign city, and face termination at any moment because there are 100 more people waiting outside every day to take your place. Yeah, people might joke that it's already this way in the U.S., but that's just not the case. Even if you sell auto parts, or pour concrete, you're still better off.

The economy IS turning around. I'm optimistic even though I was laid off right before Thanksgiving. At this point, 1.5 years of mechanical engineering experience isn't really helping me get an electrical engineering position, but I am confident that I will find something. If you leave now, you might miss out on our next boom. And this one might be real growth, not a bubble of hopes and gambles by investors.

Maybe our garden-variety programming jobs are all moving overseas. OK...maybe this is just a natural progression? We used to make shoes and T-shirts here, right? And then the other developing countries said "Hey, we can do that!" and we moved on to more complex and technological things. Now the other countries have had a chance to pick up some engineering textbooks and say "Hey, we can do that too!" So now it's time to find something even more specialized and technologically advanced. I think that the future of engineering in the U.S. is the consulting specialist. Boilerplate work is already being taken over by other developing countries; here we have to target the jobs that are one-of-a-kind, bordering on actual research instead of just application. I may be wrong, but that's one possibility.

Anyway, get some job, or get some more school. All of this engineering talent floating around in the U.S. is a huge untapped resource, and I happen to know that the U.S. doesn't let untapped resources just sit there forever.

Networking is more important than education

[cybermancer]

I have a High School degree with only a couple additional formal education classes. I am currently a Senior Software Engineer with a software consulting company that has me in a long term placement at a large multi-national technology firm.

Most every job I have I got through networking. I am president of a local software development group (PC users group for developers) that I attended for years previously. I always try to work with other people to help them so they know I am a resource. I look for opportunities to present at conferences or other groups. I look for writing opportunities and other avenues to promote my skills and abilities.

Sometimes I have worked for far less then I should have for what I was doing, but the result is I have acquired enough experience that my lack of degree is less important. Be willing to start at the bottom and work your way up. The opportunities are there, if you are willing to look.

As an example, I was laid off about a year ago. I had a new job in 2 days, and 3 or 4 other offers within a week. All the offers were from networking. Most the jobs I get interviews through Monster or other listings they say I am over qualified for. Imagine that.

I would eventually like to go to school and get a C.S. degree. But I imagine that I will get my employeer to pay for most of it while they are paying me to work and apply what I learn. Education is a good thing, but it is not what will get you a job.