JCert Is Dead

Ian Mitchell writes "According to jCert's web site the initiative has finally expired. For several years jCert promoted the concept of 'certify once, recognized everywhere,' describing itself as 'a consortium of Java-based enterprise-development software vendors and other interested organizations that work together to define a single training and certification path for employers and individuals.' It once included such heavyweights as IBM, Oracle, Sun Microsystems, BEA Systems, Hewlett-Packard, Sybase and iPlanet. However the core jCert members gradually left to pursue their own certification strategies, and IBM - the last remaining member with a J2EE platform - withdrew its certification roles on January 1st."

Comments

Does certification actually matter?

[heinousjay]

Does anyone worry about getting certified anymore? I've never known a certified anyone that was worth their weight in dead cock-a-roaches.

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[stefanlasiewski]

And beyond that, do you folks think that certification provides a decent learning path.

Pretend that I want to learn more Java|Oracle|Unix sysadmin, etc, and might go through my local university extension. If I learn just from books, it seems like I will only learn some aspects of a topic, and will neglect other chunks. A classroom and teacher help to provide a more well rounded learning experience.

I don't want to pay $1000 for the actual certification test, and don't care too much about becoming certified. I just want to learn useful stuff. Would it be worth it to just follow the syllabus for the Certification?

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

Generally, the certification syllabii I've seen were extremely oriented toward passing the tests, with poorly worded, deliberately confusing, overly pedantic problems.

Unfortunately, I have nothing constructive to say.

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[ChaseTec]

Disclaimer: I'm a Sun Certified Java & Solaris Instructor

And beyond that, do you folks think that certification provides a decent learning path.
You've apparently had a bad experience somewhere. Are you a MCSE by any chance? ;)Joking aside, certification should provide you a good opportunity to show the learning paths you've been down already. You shouldn't learn to get certified. If you take the Sun Java certs you'll see the it's designed to see if you actually use Java for what's being tested; Such a wide area of questions is asked that you are not expected to score very high. If you look at Sun's percentages to pass they are around 50-60% because you have to have been using Java for a while to come into contact with that much material.

If I learn just from books, it seems like I will only learn some aspects of a topic, and will neglect other chunks. A classroom and teacher help to provide a more well rounded learning experience.
Yes and no, it's all a matter of the course, teacher, and test. There used to be many course out there that were designed to get someone MSCE certified in a week or two. This explains why I had to show a MSCE how to install a cpu (slot 1) a couple years back when I was working tech support. One of the Sun courses I teach that raises a lot of certification questions is SL-275 for previous programmer that are new to Java. It's the course that supports the Certified Java Programmer exam. When people ask how much study they need after that course I typically tell them one solid month of using Java and 1 week of study time.

I don't want to pay $1000 for the actual certification test,
Sun's range from $150 to around $400 for most.

and don't care too much about becoming certified. I just want to learn useful stuff.
And with todays surplus of people wanting tech job every little bit that gives you a chance to get an interview helps because it's a sure thing that everyone else has a resume saying that they know stuff.

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[AJWM]

And with todays surplus of people wanting tech job every little bit that gives you a chance to get an interview helps

Exactly right. I'm a software developer, but in the course of all my Unix development experience I've also had to administer a lot of Unix boxes (just about every flavor). I've also maintained a couple of small networks. So after being unemployed as a developer for over a year, I brushed up on Solaris specifics (I have an ancient Sparc box doing server duty in the basement, and a Solaris X86 box beside my main Linux SMP box under my desk), got my Sun Cert for Solaris System Administrator, and am currently employed on contract to IBM as a Solaris sys admin (yes, IBM and Solaris -- managed services at a customer site, over 300 Sun boxes from Netras to SunFires plus other assorted Unix and Linux flavors).

(The pay isn't quite up to software engineer pay, but it beats working at Best Buy. ;-)

Despite rewriting my resume with a heavy slant to my actual admin experience, I don't know that it would have been looked at without the cert. Not that Sparcstation and X86 experience helps much when you open up the cabinet doors on an SF 15000...

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[archeopterix]

Generally, the certification syllabii I've seen were extremely oriented toward passing the tests, with poorly worded, deliberately confusing, overly pedantic problems.

Unfortunately, I have nothing constructive to say.

It's syllabuses, not syllabii.

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite right. And even if it were conjugated as a second-declension Latin noun, the plural would be syllabi. Syllabii would be the plural of *syllabius.

Geesh, so many idiots around, eh?

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[Lobo_Louie]

Wow, it sounds like you're Cisco/Microsoft certified. It's not about knowing your shti, it's about knowing how to translate test"ese" into correct answers.

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

yay, it worked!!

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only certification I have is my performance on the job. I don't believe that one's skill can be tested in situations that don't involve the possibility of losing one's job.

I've also had the opportunity to interview certified people of all disciplines. By and large, they were jackasses. I understand that's a generalization. I've met some people packing certifications that were very good at what they did. I just don't give any credit to a piece of paper, no matter who issues it.

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[ProfKyne]

How can I become a Sun Certified Java Instructor? (I'm already a SCJP, if that matters.)

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[egriebel]

If you take the Sun Java certs you'll see the it's designed to see if you actually use Java for what's being tested

I respectfully disagree with this statement. Most of the lowest-level Sun cert, "Java Certified Programmer", asks questions can be answered quickly from the JDK javadocs or by running a 2 second javac...but, of course those aren't available. E.g., the answer for many examples where code is given is "Program will not compile". Cheap.

-ed

Re:Does certification actually matter?

[hippycow]

Not only that, but I think it is pretty silly to have a programming test that doesn't involve programming. Stupid things like trying to find the syntax error in the code without using the compiler, figuring out what the heck kind of mess a combination of different nested layouts will produce and remembering that adding two chars (in Java) produces an int. An experienced programmer types in fewer syntax errors and thus doesn't need to grep for them in code; in any case the compiler usually gives good clues.

Having gotten the Java Certified Programmer certification, I can tell you that of the languages I know (Assembly, C, C++, Java, C#, Python, JavaScript...), I am perhaps weakest in Java (I haven't done much assembly in a while, though, so that may be a toss up). I got the certification to try and spruce up my resume and compensate for the fact that I have years of exeperience in most of these other languages, but not Java.

So, perhaps a certification is a red flag that that can warn the interviewer that something real may be missing.

Uh...

[ianashley]

You mean... most IT certifications are actually a joke? Now that's news!

Re:Now all we need....

[Anonymous Coward]

You work for M$ too eh? I know how you feel!

Has Netcraft verified this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Netcraft seems to be the best source to see *what's dying.

Re:Now all we need....

[axxackall]

Why M$?

Many Python/Perl/Tcl developers hate java too - they abandoned Java because it's too slow for the rapid development, but it hits them back as many managers are too blind and still stick to Java in their projects.

Another camp that historically hate Java (as well as they hate C and C++) is an elite of functional programmers who develop on Lisp, ML, Haskell and Erlang. They hate procedural/imperative languages for being semantically buggy.

And of course c and C++ developers hate Java for lost performance of JVM.

All three groups in someplaces/sometimes use M$OS, but in generally they are more specific for Unix/Linux. Especially first two groups.

Re: Specialize vs. Diversify

[chooks]

Does anyone worry about getting certified anymore?

As I think most people would agree, the certs themselves don't actually measure how good you are. It just says you could pass a test. But it is part of the Hiring Game(TM).

A bigger question I think is how far on the certification trail do you go? For example, having been certified as a java programmer, do you do you keep getting higher level certs (developer, web component, architect, etc...) or not?

I think that the answer to this depends to a large degree on the job market you are targeting. For example, in my local (soon-to-be-Java-glutted-due-to-offshoring) market, eschewing increased specialization (with more in depth certs) in favor of diversification (learning new languages/basic certs) is the strategy that I am taking. I'm curious what other people think though.