U.S. Indicts Saudi Student For Website Contents

An anonymous reader writes "A student ( studying for his doctorate) has been charged by the U.S. government for setting up a website, moderating a email list listing it as 'material support' for the terrorist. How fine is the line between First Amendment rights and 'material support'?"

Comments

First Amendment? I don't think so

[LordNimon]

conspiring to help terrorist organizations wage jihad by using the Internet to raise funds

If he really is raising funds, then the First Amendment has nothing to do with this.

Re:First Amendment? I don't think so

[rthille]

Really? A lot of election fund raising laws hinge on First Amendment protections. If I can raise money to take over the governement of the United States and install a whole new congress and president, why can't I raise money for other causes I believe in? Note, I haven't investigated the charges, and the article is light on details, but the person being charged denies the raising of funds, and the article goes on to say:

Hussayen is accused of moderating an Arabic-language e-mail group that posted instructions on how to train at a terrorist camp and issued an "urgent appeal" to Muslims in the military last February to provide information for use in selecting terror targets.

So, if I moderate on Slashdot, and someone posts such an 'urgent appeal' does that make me liable? I suppose I'd moderate such a post as 'offtopic' anyway, but maybe it should be 'flamebate'? Does that make me a terrorist? Also, another reply to this post compares this free speach to shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater. Huh? How is an website an 'automatic stimulus to panic'? Way too many people are willing to broden the Government's powers and tighten the protections given by the constitiution. I think we've got a responsibility to ensure those protections are kept as broad as possible.

Re:First Amendment? I don't think so

[xyzzy]

Right, but the distinction here is raising money for something LEGAL (running in an election) versus a CRIME (funding a terrorist organization).

Re:First Amendment? I don't think so

[Chasuk]

I live in Moscow, Idaho, that hotbed of terrorist activity, so I am perhaps a little biased. Still, it all boils down to this:

Sami was in the United States studying. In his free time (which even students have, despite their sometimes-protestations to the contrary), he registered domains and dispersed funds for several non-profit organizations.

This made the government mad because Sami was supposed to be in the United States solely for the purpose of pursuing [his] studies. They allowed him to bring dependents into the country, so they knew that part of his time would be spent in tasks not solely concerned with pursuing his studies: being a father and being a husband do require some division of attention.

Sami got in trouble because some of the webpages for which he was the point of contact (registered in his name or otherwise) would occasionally publish material advocating terrorist acts against the United States. of course, we all know that CmdrTaco is personally responsible for everything that is published on Slashdot, so this is only fair play.

Still, I am curious. It is possible to register domains and transfer funds from one bank account to the other whilst in Saudi Arabia, right? It certainly was sneaky for near-PHD Sami to come all the way to the United States to perpetrate his evil terrorist deeds. Especially sneaky since he sent for his wife and children to be with him, just so that they would be able to suffer together if things ever went terribly wrong, which they did.

So, Sami was conspiring to help terrorists organizations, according to our government (a charge which, incidentally, very few here in redneck Moscow, Idaho actually believe). But has he been accused of being a terrorist? What is the distinction between conspiring the help terrorist organizations and being a terrorist?

Sami might be a terrorist, obviously. Likewise, George W. might have a few brain cells to rub together. I'd wager that the odds for either being true have the same statistical merit.

Re:First Amendment? I don't think so

[gcaseye6677]

Try raising money for a U.S. based group or cause in Saudi Arabia or Iran and see what happens.

MOD PARENT UP

[Acidic_Diarrhea]

Inciting others to commit a crime and helping to raise funds for terrorists clearly is not within the bounds of the first amendment. Freedom of speech does not extend to all speech, as everyone knows from the too-often used 'fire' in a theatre example.

Of course, the student is innocent until proven guilty [unlike in his native land] and the article was fairly light on facts. But, long story short, if the charges are true, then there is no first amendment issue to consider.

limits

[Councilor Hart]

There are limits to free speech, you know.
If this guy is raising funds for and supporting a war conducted by terrorists. Then by all means, shut him down. Drag his ass into court, not to Guantunamo (sp?) bay.
Free speech is nice, but not when it is used to kill people, or to attempt to kill people or to encourage people to kill people.

Re:limits

[BrookHarty]

Free speech is nice, but not when it is used to kill people, or to attempt to kill people or to encourage people to kill people.

Hate to play devils advocate, but if its ok to talk about war, its ok to talk about hate speech, there is no difference. Unless you are giving direct orders, with times, dates with specific plans of attack, it should be free speech. Telling people to support a cause, even if it is bloody should be free speech. When you tell people they can't support a cause by using hate crime/terrorism laws, its censorship and a tool to enforce political and moral values.

And reading the charges in the indictment, it basically says he ran the IANA (Islamic Assembly of North America) and a bunch of sites and even some net radio stations. One of his sites a webblog, someone posted instructions about suicides by bombing aircraft, he owns the site, this means hes the ring leader. And since there are large number of payments (over 3 million dollars) to members of IANA by supporting countries, Cairo, Egypt, Montreal, Canada, Riyadh, Saudia Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan, that further supports hes a terrorist. And he didnt list IANA on his VISA applications for school, so he must have lied. (He only listed ACM & IEEE)

Sounds like the fed's are regularly reading the weblogs to check for such action. 1 post from someone doesn't make IANA a terrorist group. But I suspect the person who did the post, did it from outside America. (If not, wouldnt Homeland security go after the poster?)

I think this guy is fucked, with so little fall guys these days, this looks like a win for homeland security. "We Got another one!". And top it off, hes not an American, so he has no free speech rights.

But I'm playing office chair politics, I dont have any more facts that whats in the indictment, which doesn't read all that above board for the USA. They only listed 1 post about terrorism, and its from someone else.

BTW, Glad I'm an American and I can still post abo

Z)FX($@#-
[NO CARRIER]

campaign finance reform

[Goldsmith]

The Supreme court already has decided where the line between free speech and controllable behavior is, and it comes when you start throwing money around. Raising money for a cause is not totally free speech. This is why we are able to have campaign finance laws.

In case you havn't been paying attention for the last two years, the US has been shutting down groups who raise money for terrorists left and right.

How to Win friends and Influence people

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever wonder why people don't like america ?

Disclaimer: I am not attacking you, or your country, I am voicing an opinion that is not entirely mine but a mixture of many people, rather than modding me down , reply with valid and thought provoking responces. Many of my friends are American , every american person I have met has been a nice/good person.

America driven by fear now spys on/raids arabs living in America just incase they bomb someone.

Americans fear anyone even themselves, their neighbours and their children (metal detectors in schools?).
better watch out this guy criticises america too. oh wait he is American. America is in the middle of a witch hunt. America always seems to be in a witch hunt somewhere tehy have been since the witch hunts. ( and I'm not saying they don't catch the odd "witch") but when they get innocent bystanders well, often the bystanders and their family dislikes the USA as a country and a people (will this man's deported wife and kids love america or hate america for taking away their daddy).

The USA's fear of the reds over in russia (those dang com u nasts) caused the USA/CIA to train Bin Laden. oops now we fear Bin Laden.....
This Nut case (Bin Laden) and hate monger (I have no love for him) is using anti-US sentimint to gather a literal army of american hating terrorists.
So now Bush JR invades Iraq (a Country diametricaly opposed to terrorism, yet their ex-boss didn't like the US) so america invades and kills alot of them an loses american servicemen at an alarming rate. Whoever comes to power in iraq (lets hope he's better than the last US supported leader there) will leave some people there ostracised and Blaming the USA. why did america invade there ? fear ? because Sadam didn't say he condemed the (9/11) bombers. america feared he might attack next... and invaded with no proof. well maybe GWB made some up.

Maybe this is a rant, but maybe america should reach for an olive branch before they reach for their Colt M4s.

as an aside if I was to say (and I'm not) "Drop dead Bush" - is this under america's laws planning regicide ?

Re:Does he have FA Rights ?

[Narchie Troll]

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Doesn't mention citizenship. Many rights in the Bill of Rights apply to all people, not simply citizens.

Re:Well that's a whole new kettle of fish.

[identity0]

Obviously, if the websites in question were raising funds for terrorist groups, it would be illegal whether or not they were non-profit or if he was a student.

However, I don't believe there are restrictions against student visa holders working for a non-profit, so long as they are volunteers, not paid employees. People I know have volunteered for a church play, joined a Linux user's group, and done community service while on student visas, all of which are legal as far as I understand.

Lying on an immigration form is, of course, illegal - as a matter of fact, that's one of the few things they can revoke naturalized citizenship for.

Re:Freedom/Responsibility

[TeXMaster]

And who's to set those limits?

Re:First Amendment rights don't trump treason

[casuist99]

Are you under the impression that the bill of rights and constitution does not apply to foreigners in the United States? While deportation is commonly used to solve problems with foreigners breaking laws in the USA, even this process is not without due process. If the government decides not to deport but instead to prosecute, the rights outlined in the bill of rights and constitution extend to the accused. While President Bush has been asserting the power to prosecute foreigners outside the constitution, the power will likely be overturned when cooler heads prevail in Congress and the Supreme Court. Just as we look at Japanese detention camps during WWII with shame, I sincerely hope that one day we look back at the actions of this administration with the same shame. The president isn't God and universal rights are just that: universal.
Don't get me wrong - it's not free speech to raise money to kill us. It's just that equal protection under the law is kind of fundamental in the USA, and we should respect that.

Re:*sigh*

[elendel]

*sigh*

From the article text from your post:

The indictment represents the first time the government has charged that using the Internet for recruitment, fund-raising, and other purposes constitutes aid under a law that makes it illegal to provide "material support or resources" for terrorist activity. Hussayen's lawyer, David Nevin, said he believes "there is substantial question about the constitutionality of this charge," contending that operating websites falls within Hussayen's First Amendment rights. Nevin denied that Hussayen has raised money for jihad or posted calls for violence. Hussayen is accused of moderating an Arabic-language e-mail group that posted instructions on how to train at a terrorist camp and issued an "urgent appeal" to Muslims in the military last February to provide information for use in selecting terror targets.

He is not accused of posting these instructions, or even agreeing with them. They just accuse him of moderating them - did he mod them up or down?

As others have mentioned, just because someone posts something on a website you manage does not mean you are supporting them. (Slashdot example, if I posted here how to build a bomb and stuff it down GW's pants, doesn't mean CmdrTaco is a terrorist.)