Microsoft Patenting Office XML Formats

mmurphy000 writes "News(.com)+ reports that Microsoft has filed for patents in multiple jurisdictions to control the way other applications use Office's new XML-based file formats. Musings from pundits suggest that OpenOffice.org and other applications might be blocked from interoperating with Office. This, of course on the heels of today's article on Bruce Perens' concerns over patents."

Comments

Ha!

[Xpilot]

I knew this was coming. Microsoft sympathizers are always so quick to point out "but look, MS is using XML now so why are you complaining about closed file formats". Now this. Why are we not surprised.

Re:Ha!

[ChaoticChaos]

Paranoid Microsoft never changes.

People who develop using Microsoft technology (.Net) are just insane. How long will it be before parts of the .Net Web Services XML formats are proprietary as well?

Re:Ha!

[pirhana]

>> I use C# and the CLI , theyre ECMA specified.

Even XML microsoft used WAS standard based. Everything they take from the standard and open architecture. The only problem is that they make a little (but significant) twist(e.g Active directory with LDAP and kerberos). So at the end of the day, its not much different than the classic proprietory craps. Now patents make it even more difficult as interoperability is effectively blocked leagally. I am not saying you shouldnt use C# or CLI . What I am saying is just because they are based on open standards *NOW* doesn't mean that they will remain to be.

Re:Ha!

[gillbates]

Hate to say I told you so, but I made the same point when Microsoft published their "open" XML spec for Office documents. I got flamed for that one.

"Open" means to Microsoft something entirely different from what most MS developers claim. "Open" means to Microsoft:

• Open to making independent developers pay royalties to Microsoft for code they (the independent developers) wrote.
• Open to tacking on additional terms and conditions to which the users must agree, or forfeit their investment.
• Open for use as a tool to combat this so-called "open source" movement.

Okay, I know this is going to sound like flamebait, but when will Microsoft developers ever learn?

I understand if you have to make a living. Granted, we've all done dirty work at one time or another. But there's a big difference between someone who write MS programs simply because their users run Windows and those who support what they're doing. If Microsoft had its way, it would be illegal to write code for any platform without their explicit approval. This patenting of XML formats is merely an indication of much more insidious intent. Yes, Microsoft would put all developers out of business had they the resources to do so. Anyone who thinks otherwise is blind to the last 10 years of the company's history.

Okay, flame away.

Yet Again

[City_Idiot]

MS Take a Open Source Standard like XML and Wrap it in Legal BS, Cliam it as their own and make money off it

They can patent file formats now?

[corebreech]

Did I miss a memo, or is this a truly sinister precedent? It suggests that every kind of application will now be able to patent the way it saves data, thereby denying others the opportunity to import data from that file.

It also destroys what was the entire rationale for XML, doesn't it? What's the point of a convenient medium through which information may be exchanged if everybody starts patenting their DTD's?

Brace yourself for the next version of DOM/SAX/XPath that not only checks to see if the document is well-formed and/or valid, but that also constrains your access to that document based on some new kind of hybrid between DRM and XML Schema.

UnauthorizedAccessException: You do not have the credentials necessary to access attribute 'bar' of element 'foo'. Your IP address has been logged.

It's shit like this that makes me want to get out of computers and get into chemistry.

Re:They can patent file formats now?

[The One KEA]

Then don't use it.

A patented, closed, proprietary file format can't hurt anyone if no one is using it. Use proper W3C XML or OOo filetypes, and sooner or later this may all go away.

Re:They can patent file formats now?

[JaredOfEuropa]

"I think it's going to be a non-issue, legally. I just don't think the patent will be accepted," he said. "This is Microsoft doing its aggressive best to protect its interests. [Sam Hiser of OpenOffice.org]"

Mr. Hiser seems to have a rather poor grasp of the US legal and patent system. No doubt he knows how it is supposed to work.

1) In the real world, you can file for a patent on literally anything, and it will often be granted no matter how ludicrous. With patents on one-click shopping, patents on putting a small trackball on top of a mouse, and patents on swinging sideways on a swing (I kid you not), Microsoft will have no problem winning a patent on XML data from Office.

2) Once they have been granted the patent, good luck fighting it in court. No matter how silly the patent actually is, and no matter how much prior examples there are of applications sharing data with XML, I think you'll have a hard time fighting off Microsoft unless you have exceedingly deep pockets.

This is wrong on so many levels... They are effectively forbidding you to manipulate your own data! Office documents are not like the Office application. Hell, they are not even like 'rented' data which you have licenced (as the MPAA would claim is the case with DVDs). Microsoft owns Office, but I own the documents I produce, and I reserve the right to do whatever I want with the data in them!

It has always been difficult to read such data into applications other than the one used for authoring. This has so far always been a technical issue (and one associated with many products, not just Microsoft's). Now, Microsoft will effectively make it illegal to use non-Microsoft tools to interpret the data. For me, this is another important point to take to management, if and when they will consider alternative products.

Re:They can patent file formats now?

[GammaTau]

Did I miss a memo, or is this a truly sinister precedent? It suggests that every kind of application will now be able to patent the way it saves data, thereby denying others the opportunity to import data from that file.

Did you not know that many jurisdictions allow software patents? They include things like methods for displaying data to users, methods for compressing data etc. Why would it not include methods for storing data?

Of course talking of methods (software) for an apparatus (normal computer) might sound confusing but that's software patents for you. People who talk about "obvious" patents being the primary problem with software patents are on completely wrong tracks. The patenting of software itself is the fundamental problem.

Software patents will always give an option to make it illegal for others to be interoperable with your software. If you don't agree with this principle, then you can't agree with the idea of software patenting either. Some people might be confused by copyright (an entirely different branch of legislation) that allows reverse-engineering and interoperability but with patents, that's not the case. Indeed, patents can effectively destroy your copyright the software you have written because after you realize that it is covered by a patent granted to someone else, you won't have the power to license it under your own terms (and whether it is a closed or open licensing, is irrelevant).

For EU citizens, I recommend that you join the fight against software patents. For people in different jurisdictions, I recommend taking a serious political stand against all software patents regardless of how ridiculous or serious they sound.

Re:They can patent file formats now?

[fr0dicus]

How can you be 'falling behind' if you're orders of magnitude ahead of everyone else in terms of installed base, and are only changing file formats in order to prod the people sticking with previous versions to upgrade?

All this is well and good, but SXW documents probably make up a fraction of a percent of the documents out there, and being interchangeable with AbiWord isn't going to change that very quickly. Get real, please. I'd like to Microsoft Office squashed as much as the next person, but it's going to require features and performance, rather than file format wars, to do it.

Closed for openess open for business

[Anonymous Coward]

they make it xml so its open and easy to work with for developers... now they want to try and make it only the developers that pay them $$ ?

Re:Closed for openess open for business

[walt-sjc]

Oh, don't worry. They will have a free license for developers working on the Microsoft platform with Microsoft products. You won't be able to afford a license to work on Linux or with openoffice however.

This wouldn't bother me so much

[Saint Stephen]

This wouldn't bother me so much if they hadn't made a big point of pointing out how XML lets you interoperate. Well, I guess that's still true, but they forgot to see "for a fee."

Re:This wouldn't bother me so much

[Tim C]

There's absolutely no legal requirement for them to charge a licence fee just because they've patented their xml file formats.

Most large companies have portfolios of patents that they have no intention of enforcing, unless pushed into doing so (eg someone sues them for infringing on one of their patents, etc).

Now, I'm not saying that MS definitely won't charge a fee for using this, I'm just pointing out that it's a little early to be saying that they definitely will, too. Let's just all wait until the licencing scheme is announced before screaming at them, shall we?

We planned to make use of the XML from Word...

[Psiren]

... and we still will, regardless of these patents (which I haven't even bothered to read about). It's my fucking data, and I'll do what the fuck I like with it thank you very much.

Re:We planned to make use of the XML from Word...

[0x0d0a]

These are the machinations of a dying dinosaur. Protectionism NEVER works. Not in politics, not in economy, and definitely not in business.

It's worked pretty well for Microsoft in the form of maintaining a monopoly for two decades now.

What Microsoft does is *exactly* what the free market is designed to avoid -- the consumer *isn't* benefiting, and things are stagnating.

Cross platform?

[kellererik]

Based on this article even the latest M$Office on the Mac can't read all files from its WinDOS sibling.
Bottom line is, if you want to avoid a lock-in a.k.a. pay to view your own documents if you decide to stop using M$ Software, don't start using the 'new' M$Office in the first place.

my 2 cents

Re:This might not be SO bad

[ColaMan]

Except that when it's patented , the details are published......

So, someone makes a change to an existing OSS filter, MS can say, "Hey! You used the details of our patent to further your work, pay up or we'll....(insert crushing legal threat here)"

Which means it's going to be much,much harder to get an OSS filter for the next version(s) of MS Office, as you'll have to be pretty strict with the reverse-engineering to ensure you don't wind up in the courts defending your work against a bunch of attack lawyers from a billion-dollar company.

Monopoly abuse

[kmonsen]

If this is not monopoly abuse I don't know what is. Remeber office is a major reason for people to buy windows and a major part of MS income.

The bottom line is MS technology should not be used in any way, and we should not belive a bought department of justice will do something about it.

This may sound paranoid but is unfortunatly true. Once you are stuck with MS products they may change the license for new versions as they see fit. If it were not for Linux, Windows would be really expensive today.

Back in the day...

[iLuke]

Anyone else remember back in the day when all hardware was proprietary? (I don't, it was before I was born, but yeah, I've studied the history books). Think we're headed there with software?? Think the big geeks will ever learn from their mistakes? Open source rocks.

For those who don't like to RTFA - Quote

[holy_smoke]

"The proposed patents apparently seek to protect methods other applications could use to interpret the XML dialect, or schema, Office uses to describe and organize information in documents. Microsoft recently agreed to publish those schemas and is looking at opening other chunks of Office code.

Despite those moves toward openness, the patents could create a barrier to competing software, said Rob Helm, an analyst for research firm Directions on Microsoft.

"This is a direct challenge to software vendors who want to interoperate with Word through XML," he said. "For example, if Corel wanted to improve WordPerfect's support of Word by adopting its XML format...for import/export, they'd probably have to license this patent.""

AND THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS. THE REAL MOTIVATION FOR THE PATENTS = ATTEMPT AT CREATING A ROYALTY INCOME STREAM. YOU WILL SEE MORE OF THIS AS MICROSOFT TRYS TO PROP UP ITS FAILING PROFIT MARGINS.

Halloween and Government FLOSS

[Anonymous Coward]

I am reminded of what Microsoft said in the Halloween Document:

"OSS projects have been able to gain a foothold in many server applications because of the wide utility of highly commoditized, simple protocols. By extending these protocols and developing new protocols, we can deny OSS projects entry into the market."

This new patent scheme also explains why, in any discussion of the use of Open Source by governments, some poster always pops up and says, "We don't need Open Source in government, we only need Open Standards."

I guess the idea is that Microsoft's Office XML would still qualify as an "open standard" even though only Microsoft could use it.

The sooner Microsoft is crushed, the better off we will all be.