Microsoft Patenting Office XML Formats

mmurphy000 writes "News(.com)+ reports that Microsoft has filed for patents in multiple jurisdictions to control the way other applications use Office's new XML-based file formats. Musings from pundits suggest that OpenOffice.org and other applications might be blocked from interoperating with Office. This, of course on the heels of today's article on Bruce Perens' concerns over patents."

Comments

Ha!

[Xpilot]

I knew this was coming. Microsoft sympathizers are always so quick to point out "but look, MS is using XML now so why are you complaining about closed file formats". Now this. Why are we not surprised.

Re:Ha!

[ChaoticChaos]

Paranoid Microsoft never changes.

People who develop using Microsoft technology (.Net) are just insane. How long will it be before parts of the .Net Web Services XML formats are proprietary as well?

Re:Ha!

[pirhana]

>> I use C# and the CLI , theyre ECMA specified.

Even XML microsoft used WAS standard based. Everything they take from the standard and open architecture. The only problem is that they make a little (but significant) twist(e.g Active directory with LDAP and kerberos). So at the end of the day, its not much different than the classic proprietory craps. Now patents make it even more difficult as interoperability is effectively blocked leagally. I am not saying you shouldnt use C# or CLI . What I am saying is just because they are based on open standards *NOW* doesn't mean that they will remain to be.

They can patent file formats now?

[corebreech]

Did I miss a memo, or is this a truly sinister precedent? It suggests that every kind of application will now be able to patent the way it saves data, thereby denying others the opportunity to import data from that file.

It also destroys what was the entire rationale for XML, doesn't it? What's the point of a convenient medium through which information may be exchanged if everybody starts patenting their DTD's?

Brace yourself for the next version of DOM/SAX/XPath that not only checks to see if the document is well-formed and/or valid, but that also constrains your access to that document based on some new kind of hybrid between DRM and XML Schema.

UnauthorizedAccessException: You do not have the credentials necessary to access attribute 'bar' of element 'foo'. Your IP address has been logged.

It's shit like this that makes me want to get out of computers and get into chemistry.

Re:They can patent file formats now?

[The One KEA]

Then don't use it.

A patented, closed, proprietary file format can't hurt anyone if no one is using it. Use proper W3C XML or OOo filetypes, and sooner or later this may all go away.

Re:They can patent file formats now?

[JaredOfEuropa]

"I think it's going to be a non-issue, legally. I just don't think the patent will be accepted," he said. "This is Microsoft doing its aggressive best to protect its interests. [Sam Hiser of OpenOffice.org]"

Mr. Hiser seems to have a rather poor grasp of the US legal and patent system. No doubt he knows how it is supposed to work.

1) In the real world, you can file for a patent on literally anything, and it will often be granted no matter how ludicrous. With patents on one-click shopping, patents on putting a small trackball on top of a mouse, and patents on swinging sideways on a swing (I kid you not), Microsoft will have no problem winning a patent on XML data from Office.

2) Once they have been granted the patent, good luck fighting it in court. No matter how silly the patent actually is, and no matter how much prior examples there are of applications sharing data with XML, I think you'll have a hard time fighting off Microsoft unless you have exceedingly deep pockets.

This is wrong on so many levels... They are effectively forbidding you to manipulate your own data! Office documents are not like the Office application. Hell, they are not even like 'rented' data which you have licenced (as the MPAA would claim is the case with DVDs). Microsoft owns Office, but I own the documents I produce, and I reserve the right to do whatever I want with the data in them!

It has always been difficult to read such data into applications other than the one used for authoring. This has so far always been a technical issue (and one associated with many products, not just Microsoft's). Now, Microsoft will effectively make it illegal to use non-Microsoft tools to interpret the data. For me, this is another important point to take to management, if and when they will consider alternative products.

Re:They can patent file formats now?

[GammaTau]

Did I miss a memo, or is this a truly sinister precedent? It suggests that every kind of application will now be able to patent the way it saves data, thereby denying others the opportunity to import data from that file.

Did you not know that many jurisdictions allow software patents? They include things like methods for displaying data to users, methods for compressing data etc. Why would it not include methods for storing data?

Of course talking of methods (software) for an apparatus (normal computer) might sound confusing but that's software patents for you. People who talk about "obvious" patents being the primary problem with software patents are on completely wrong tracks. The patenting of software itself is the fundamental problem.

Software patents will always give an option to make it illegal for others to be interoperable with your software. If you don't agree with this principle, then you can't agree with the idea of software patenting either. Some people might be confused by copyright (an entirely different branch of legislation) that allows reverse-engineering and interoperability but with patents, that's not the case. Indeed, patents can effectively destroy your copyright the software you have written because after you realize that it is covered by a patent granted to someone else, you won't have the power to license it under your own terms (and whether it is a closed or open licensing, is irrelevant).

For EU citizens, I recommend that you join the fight against software patents. For people in different jurisdictions, I recommend taking a serious political stand against all software patents regardless of how ridiculous or serious they sound.

Re:They can patent file formats now?

[fr0dicus]

How can you be 'falling behind' if you're orders of magnitude ahead of everyone else in terms of installed base, and are only changing file formats in order to prod the people sticking with previous versions to upgrade?

All this is well and good, but SXW documents probably make up a fraction of a percent of the documents out there, and being interchangeable with AbiWord isn't going to change that very quickly. Get real, please. I'd like to Microsoft Office squashed as much as the next person, but it's going to require features and performance, rather than file format wars, to do it.

Closed for openess open for business

[Anonymous Coward]

they make it xml so its open and easy to work with for developers... now they want to try and make it only the developers that pay them $$ ?

Re:Closed for openess open for business

[walt-sjc]

Oh, don't worry. They will have a free license for developers working on the Microsoft platform with Microsoft products. You won't be able to afford a license to work on Linux or with openoffice however.

We planned to make use of the XML from Word...

[Psiren]

... and we still will, regardless of these patents (which I haven't even bothered to read about). It's my fucking data, and I'll do what the fuck I like with it thank you very much.

Re:We planned to make use of the XML from Word...

[0x0d0a]

These are the machinations of a dying dinosaur. Protectionism NEVER works. Not in politics, not in economy, and definitely not in business.

It's worked pretty well for Microsoft in the form of maintaining a monopoly for two decades now.

What Microsoft does is *exactly* what the free market is designed to avoid -- the consumer *isn't* benefiting, and things are stagnating.

Cross platform?

[kellererik]

Based on this article even the latest M$Office on the Mac can't read all files from its WinDOS sibling.
Bottom line is, if you want to avoid a lock-in a.k.a. pay to view your own documents if you decide to stop using M$ Software, don't start using the 'new' M$Office in the first place.

my 2 cents

Re:This might not be SO bad

[ColaMan]

Except that when it's patented , the details are published......

So, someone makes a change to an existing OSS filter, MS can say, "Hey! You used the details of our patent to further your work, pay up or we'll....(insert crushing legal threat here)"

Which means it's going to be much,much harder to get an OSS filter for the next version(s) of MS Office, as you'll have to be pretty strict with the reverse-engineering to ensure you don't wind up in the courts defending your work against a bunch of attack lawyers from a billion-dollar company.

Monopoly abuse

[kmonsen]

If this is not monopoly abuse I don't know what is. Remeber office is a major reason for people to buy windows and a major part of MS income.

The bottom line is MS technology should not be used in any way, and we should not belive a bought department of justice will do something about it.

This may sound paranoid but is unfortunatly true. Once you are stuck with MS products they may change the license for new versions as they see fit. If it were not for Linux, Windows would be really expensive today.

Back in the day...

[iLuke]

Anyone else remember back in the day when all hardware was proprietary? (I don't, it was before I was born, but yeah, I've studied the history books). Think we're headed there with software?? Think the big geeks will ever learn from their mistakes? Open source rocks.