Tapwave Zodiac Creators Update On Handheld

Thanks to Zodiac Gamer for reprinting a progress report on the reception to the Tapwave Zodiac handheld gaming system, as the creators of the Palm-compatible device mention accolades such as a CES 'Last Gadget Standing' award from PCMag, and also note they've "received a very small number of units back for joystick-related issues", mainly involving calibration problems. The post also comments on newly released games enhanced specifically for the device, singling out the Atari Retro pack, which ZodiacGamer had earlier previewed, and discussing upcoming titles: "Doom II is going through final single-player testing and sign-off and Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 is in our final phases of multiplayer testing."

Comments

TapWave as a PDA, not a GBA replacement...

[RevAaron]

I said it before- here and elsewhere- and I'll say it again. If I were in the market for a many functioned PalmOS PDA, I would get a TapWave Zodiac. And I can't say I would plan on buying more than a couple games, a few classics or puzzle games that I would play often.

For $400, you get a pretty nice PalmOS machine. A fast CPU, a big and nice screen, bluetooth, dual SDIO slots, and a heaping helping of RAM. For $300 you get all that, but with 32 MB instead of 128 MB of RAM- still a nice price for a nice machine. Similarily equipped Sony or PalmOne devices often cost more- and none of them have dual SD slots. Definately a handy thing to have, especially if you don't have both CF and SD.

Re:TapWave as a PDA, not a GBA replacement...

[Kris_J]

I had an opportunity to play with a Zodiac yesterday, including the new Atari Retro pack tweaked for the Zodiac. It is a very impressive device, both as a PDA and a games machine. Basically it's a damn good generic peice of pocket-sized computing hardware.

Shame I already have a PDA that I don't use. I have room for my wallet/keys (one thing), plus one other device and it just has to be my mobile phone. While I clip my iPod onto my belt, that's only for going to and from work -- not for every moment of the day carrying. If it's not a mobile phone it's going to spend most of its time gathering dust in my house.

Re:TapWave as a PDA, not a GBA replacement...

[metamatic]

I am in the market for a PalmOS PDA. The TapWave Zodiac does indeed look great.

However, I'm waiting for them to add OS X support.

PalmOS 6?

[RevAaron]

OK, don't mean to be a tool (third pr0st!@) by submitting the only two readable posts so far, but ...

Anyone heard about their plans to bring PalmOS 6 to the TapWave? Anyone know if there will be a software upgrade for the existing devices, or if not, a new device with the newer OS? Any rumors?

In my other post, I said that if I was going to be buying a PalmOS PDA, I would get one of these. I won't buy a PalmOS device until at least PalmOS 6- I need the functionality of something closer to a "real" OS. PalmOS 5 simply doesn't cut it for me, for reasons I've spouted off off on here a d dozen times. I use my PDA as a computer, and my primary computer is a PDA. I know I am in the minority on that one, but regardless I still expect to be able to maintain an IRC or IM connection if I need to go into my address book and grab a phone number.

Multitasking isn't neccesary on an overpriced electronic organizer. But it is on anything that claims to be a multimedia PDA. The Newton had it in 1993- why not the Palm in 2004?

Once I can buy a PalmOS 6 TapWave, I think I shall. PalmOS is a pretty decent piece of work, but just doesn't cut it for me.

Re:PalmOS 6?

[Aliencow]

Well if you knew what the hell you were talking about it'd help. I don't know for you, but my IM client on my Tungsten T2 stays online when I go in the address book.

Re:PalmOS 6?

[RevAaron]

Some apps are set up to handle it. Partially, it depends on the IM protocol. But I've used plenty of networking apps- IRC is what I use most- where I have to go through the whole reconnection process if I ever have to leave the app and start another. Mind you, with some DAs/hacks you could get at some data- paste an address from your address book, stuff like that- but I am talking about totally leaving the program.

Heck, on the Tungsten C that I had for a while [1] I had to re-establish the wifi connection almost every time I switched from a network app to a non-net app and back to a net-app, whether or not it was the same or different. And yes, I told it *not* to drop the connection, and set a pretty big time out. It was very aggrivating.

[1] The Tungsten C was the first modern PalmOS device I had. I only owned it for a week. I went back to my Windows CE device for wifi and real work, and got a hold of a used Palm m130 for use as a PDA- as opposed to a computer+PDA, a "PMT" in Zaurus marketroidspeak. It is a good combo. Unless I could be running POS 6, I prefer having a less powerful PalmOS device. Because then I don't have to live with the tremendous frustration of constantly being held back by what POS 5.x and under lacks. The m130 does what it does very well; the Tungsten C, with more advanced features does not do what it does as well. This should change in POS 6, yes, and I can't wait to see what Palm gives us in that regard.

Re:PalmOS 6?

[ajagci]

I don't know for you, but my IM client on my Tungsten T2 stays online when I go in the address book.

PalmOS 5 is not a multi-tasking, protected mode operating system, and it shows. It causes problems for the UI (e.g., when you switch between applications, views change capriciously) and for robustness (applications that crash often take down the whole handheld).

The fact that a few applications manage to "stay online" doesn't make the OS multitasking. DOS had TSR programs and various other hacks, and that didn't make it multitasking either. Sorry, but it's you who doesn't know what you are talking about.

Re:PalmOS 6?

[RevAaron]

Don't forget- somewhere in the PalmOS 4.x series, Sony added a super primitive form of multitasking. Basically, all it did was allow one background thread which recieved only a tiny chunk of the machine's resources. All the thread could do is pipe data to the mp3 decoder chip on the lil guy's motherboard. that way, you could listen to mp3s *and* be in the addressbook at the same time! What an invention!

Hmpf! "PDAs don't need multitasking" they say! Ha! The PDA may not care, but I do! If I am going to spend anything more than $60 on something calling itself a PDA, it better damn well multitask, at least in a limited- but generally useful- fashion.

Similar to Sony's hack, PalmOS 5.2 has some very, very primitive two thread "multitasking," though in 5.2, the background thread is allowed to actually decode the mp3s and pipe it to the speaker rather than just to the decoder chip. Ooohhh, impressive!

Last gadget standing.

[Lord Graga]

No wonder. This is the first well-designed multi-application device that I have ever seen. It's a PDA, a REAL pda! Not a PDA-like OS. And, it has a gaming mode and other special features that is independent from Palm OS. That is interesting, because that's what peoples wants! Nobody likes N-Gage in a year, because it's *another* multi-application system that tries to solve it's needs with a new OS/etc. Zodiac uses Palm OS, an allready existing OS that peoples will actually make programs for. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't any N-Gage support in Nokias next "(gaming+phone)/2;". That's why they are screwed, and that's why Zodiac will live: If it will suck as a gaming machine it will still be a quite powerfull PDA.

Re:Last gadget standing.

[ajagci]

It's a PDA, a REAL pda! Not a PDA-like OS

Newton had something that might be called a "real PDA OS". The Sharp Zaurus has a "real OS that works well for a PDA". But Zodiac and Palm have neither. The reason that they work so well is simply the enormous efforts that application writers put into the platform. Zodiac's OS is a Frankenstein monster, a combination of the outdated PalmOS 5 platform with some gaming features thrown in.

and that's why Zodiac will live: If it will suck as a gaming machine it will still be a quite powerfull PDA.

Zodiac's business plan is probably that they get acquired by Palm or someone else. Given their dependency on PalmOS licenses, they are at Palm's mercy anyway.

What Zodiac should have done is put a real kernel and OS on the Zodiac and run PalmOS as a guest operating system under that.

Re:Last gadget standing.

[RevAaron]

Newton had something that might be called a "real PDA OS". The Sharp Zaurus has a "real OS that works well for a PDA".

Ha! It is about time someone else said that- so I didn't have to. I often bring up the fact that I want my PDA to have something resembling a "real OS," or at least, provide multitasking and some other so-called "perks" that I expect in an OS, be it on a computer that fits on my desk or in my pocket.

PalmOS users often say- why would you need a PDA to have multitasking? A PDA isn't meant to multitask. But that certainly isn't true. The first PDA, the device for which the term was invented- the Apple Newton- had most of the features of a "real OS," as well as a number of advanced features that a lot of so-called modern OSes running on desktops didn't have. In a lot of ways, even a 10 year old Newton outclasses most of the PalmOS units in circulation.

What Zodiac should have done is put a real kernel and OS on the Zodiac and run PalmOS as a guest operating system under that.

PalmOS 6 is the answer, at least, the answer most PalmOS users and licensees are looking at. Hopefully it'll be a good answer, but I have some reservations. For one, it it seems a bit silly that in apps for PalmOS 6, an OS that only can run on ARM CPUs (no m68ks!), the developer has to go out of her way to develop special code for native ARM, the default being to compile everything to m68k. And then they emulate the m68k CPU. Except, to my knowledge, PalmSource hasn't discussed what they're going to do about this in POS 6.x, 7 and beyond. Are they going to take a path like Apple's? Are they going to cripple users with performance, emulating 68k code for the next couple major versions, or will POS 6.x be the transition series, with POS 7 and beyond being native-ARM by default, without developers having to go out of their way to write ARMlets for only some selected functions?

The unfortunate thing about having the Zodiac run a "real kernel and OS" is that there really doesn't seem to be a good option for it. Sharp has proved that Linux+Qtopia really isn't ready for the privilege of running on a device in this class and category. Hell, there isn't even a way to use the Zaurus C7x0's Imageon 100 gfx chip, and I can't imagine the situation would be much different with the Imageon 4200 on the Zodiac.

With Linux, there is too much of a temptation for the company using it to just approach it like they're getting a deal, saving $15 per unit for the WinCE.NET 4.2 licensing fee. Linux could be very worthwhile if some company(ies) was willing to put a lot of time and money into Linux on the PDA, advancing the state of the art in a lot of areas. Sharp sure as hell isn't doing it.

The only option I can see is Windows CE. Now don't get me wrong, I like Windows CE; if only because it is the least sucky choice to be made for me as a PDA user. I'd rather be using NewtonOS, but that isn't much of an option for me anymore. :(

Re:Last gadget standing.

[ajagci]

PalmOS 6 is the answer, at least, the answer most PalmOS users and licensees are looking at. Hopefully it'll be a good answer, but I have some reservations.

I agree with those technical issues. But I see a more fundamental problem: Palm's history and attitude. They started off as ex-Macintosh hackers and basically just repeated technically what they did before: lots of low-level hacking, nice apps, and no understanding of the longer-range issues. In fact, arguably, they repeated what they did with Macintosh: they got the basic ideas from Xerox (the PARCTab).

Worse, Palm views their fortune in "owning the platform", which means they will do anything they can do in order to make the platform as incompatible with the rest of the world as they can get away with. That's why Palm still doesn't have widespread Java or XML support. That's also why it doesn't run in protected mode, have a modern window system, or have a usable file system (if it did, you could port other software to it too easily). I think POS6 (what an ironic acronym) won't solve the problems POS4 and POS5 have because it is not in Palm's financial interest to make POS6 a modern operating system. The more baroque POS remains, the more of a lock they have on the market. Sound familiar?

With Linux, there is too much of a temptation for the company using it to just approach it like they're getting a deal, saving $15 per unit for the WinCE.NET 4.2 licensing fee. Linux could be very worthwhile if some company(ies) was willing to put a lot of time and money into Linux on the PDA, advancing the state of the art in a lot of areas. Sharp sure as hell isn't doing it.

I fully agree with that. Linux is a great kernel, even for PDAs, but it is far from enough. What people need to worry about with Linux-on-PDAs is the applications. Qtopia has wasted years rewriting the low-level graphics stuff but doing no better than Palm or PPC on apps.

The right thing to do would be to develop an updated Newton-like environment (dynamic language, persistent database, XML data interchange, etc.) and not waste time with reinventing the low-level infrastructure--Linux and X11 are fine for modern handhelds--they need decent, modern apps. And that's a real opportunity, because both Microsoft and Palm are sitting on their hands.

Re:Last gadget standing.

[RevAaron]

Qtopia has wasted years rewriting the low-level graphics stuff but doing no better than Palm or PPC on apps.

And not just no better, but quite a bit worse. Heck, I have found better and more available Linux/Unix adaptations for WinCE than for the Zaurus. It is easier to simply recompile a Linux app for the Zaurus, but a lot of those apps aren't usable on a PDA.

The right thing to do would be to develop an updated Newton-like environment (dynamic language, persistent database, XML data interchange, etc.) and not waste time with reinventing the low-level infrastructure

Huh! Are you my secret double or something?

That is the kind of solution I have favored, and the one I have been working on. The dynamic language is Squeak Smalltalk. THe persistent database is Magma, and object database system for Squeak. Some XML interchange- through XML-RPC and SOAP- but it isn't used as the storage format.

The system I am working on it is called Dynapad. You can see some new screenshots here. The wiki hasn't been touched in a long time, and it was rolled back (think their server had an issue, had to restore from a backup) and I have not had the time to redo it all. Mind you, work continues and I have done a lot since I have made a release. I will be putting out a new release within a week, it is long overdue.

Linux and X11 are fine for modern handhelds--they need decent, modern apps.

Indeed. I generally advocate for using a Linux kernel as what is underneath; Squeak itself can run as an OS, but with so many drivers and other perks of using an establish kernel, I can't see why not to use it. Dynapad can run on Linux under X11, DirectFB, /dev/fb, SDL, and Qtopia, though if I were creating a standalone system I would just use the framebuffer display mode for Squeak and Dynapad. It works quite well, and for one window, X11 is overkill.

And that's a real opportunity, because both Microsoft and Palm are sitting on their hands.

Again, you hit the nail on the head. Someting I have been saying for years. PDAs are a chance for us to start over again, and this time do it right. On Windows CE, the API is pretty compatible with regular Win32, but even so, it doesn't run regular Windows apps, so backwards compatibility isn't as compelling in that sense. PalmOS doesn't have the problem of backwards compatibility. They both had the chance to do it right, but they didn't. They didn't do it horribly, but still.

With the Linux/Qtopia situation, it is even worse. The community, as well companies like TrollTech and Sharp have done so little in this area. Even more so than MS and Palm, they had the chance to take that potential, the potential of creating a truly great, innovative (in the truest sense of the word) and forward look system. But they didn't. They took the easy way out. As a result, the situation is pretty crappy, and light-years from exceptional.

Re:Last gadget standing.

[twalk]

When transitioning from 68K to ARM, Palm made a 2 stage process. PalmOS 5 is the first stage, making the ARM devices backwardly compatible with 68K devices. This is done by an "open box" emulator called PACE. Basically the OS is running seperately from PACE, and any program running in PACE will have all of it's OS called translated into ARM PalmOS calls. It's sort of like a WinNT running a Win3.1 program (or a PPC Mac running a 68K Mac program), but without as many protections.

As part of the first stage, programmers can write "armlets" that are custom ARM code that can be accessed by the 68K program running in PACE. So if you want to make an ARM program, you can just do it, and use a 68K stub to start it.

Stage 2 is PalmOS 6. PalmOS 6 fills out the real OS (the PACE emulator won't be changed) to add all of the other goodies. PalmOS 6 programs won't be runnable on older devices since they'll be full ARM programs. This is the part that the BeOS guys have been working on, and I have high hopes for it considering how good BeOS was.

Re:Last gadget standing.

[cableshaft]

Zodiac uses Palm OS, an allready existing OS that peoples will actually make programs for. Not to nitpick, but the rest of your argument kinda falls apart because you included this line. Let's put this in terms of what the N-Gage really does: N-Gage uses Symbian Series 60 OS, an already existing OS used in over a dozen phones that people will (and have, a good couple thousand at a casual glance) make programs for, as well as the ability to play Java apps. There's even Macromedia Flash support for the device thanks to Flash MX 2004 Pro and Mobiclip. 3+ separate platforms? That's quite a bit of support for homebrew development.

32mb vs 128mb of FLASH RAM, not regular RAM

[Rayonic]

Both the $300 and $400 models of the Zodiac have the same amount of volitile work RAM, thus can play the same games and have the same performance. It's just the flash-ram storage that's different. An extra $100 apparently buys you an extra 96MB to store your files and programs. Both, I believe, have flash card slots if you need extra space.

You may know this, but I feel it is important to point out to the public at large. When they see a difference in "RAM", they automatically assume that one is more powerful than the other, thus they'd better not be stuck with the cheaper one, lest some future games not work. And, as you may guess, a $400 machine will sell a lot less than a $300 one.

Re:32mb vs 128mb of FLASH RAM, not regular RAM

[RevAaron]

Do you know how much volatile RAM the Zodiac has? How much heap space?

As I pointed out a couple times, both models of the Zodiac have two SD slots, one a plain-old SD slot and one SDIO. Both can be used for SD flash RAM cards, and the SDIO slot can be used for adding wifi, a camera, etc etc.

Man, I really wished the Zodiac had a little camera, ala the Zire 71. If it did... I'd probably buy one, even without PalmOS 6! I have really wanted a little camera in my PDA for a while, for capturing those moments I hadn't anticipated. I am thinking of getting a Zaurus 71, but really want to wait until something running POS 6 comes along. And don't want to use a camera card- if I wanted that, I'd do it on my WinCE machine. But it's a pain, no thanks.

It's too bad that TapWave doesn't market the Zodiac more for PalmOS fanatics and PDA enthusiasts as a really nice PalmOS PDA that is also well equipped for playing games. Because that is what it is. Rather, it seems they are pushing the whole GBA killer angle. Almost no one in the market for a $80 handheld console is willing to add on $200 or $300 to go all out on a PDA. On the other hand, folks in the market for a $200-500 PDA would be willing to check out the Zodiac.

Re:32mb vs 128mb of FLASH RAM, not regular RAM

[Rayonic]

To answer your question, according to this page, apparently I was half wrong. They both have the same amount of system memory (12MB), but it is not volitile RAM. It's allocated out of the internal Flash RAM.

Thus, it looks like the 32MB model only has 20MB of "storage" space, for instance.

And then there is the 8MB of video RAM, but that's apart from everything else.

Tapwave Zodiac?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, the Tapwave Zodiac... what's it all about? Is it good, or is it whack?

Yeah

[M3wThr33]

I got one for my brother for Xmas, making up for the fact my family got me a Zire71 when those came out.

As a PDA, there's hardly one out there more powerful. Dual SD slots, rumble, ATI gfx chip, stereo sound, 4analog, Hi-Res+ display, 128MB of onboard memory, bluetooth. This thing has it all. I am serious when I would recommend it to hardcore pda users.

As a GBA-replacement, it's not ready yet. The development is ramping up quite nicely, but is slowed a bit by Tapwave's method of signing programs. Basically it locks a program you're developing to 1 pda, so you can develop it, and when you're done, can market it completely after passing their testing.

Of course, that's only for the Zodiac-specific features. It sounds constrictive, but it makes sense. (Until it's cracked! ;) You're trying to hold developers back, it won't work for too long)

One last note. The GP32 is no longer the rogue handheld for making emulators for. The Zodiac is the new king.

Although it does lack a universal connector, but given time, trust me, this thing will become popular. You haven't seen the last of Tapwave.

THPS

[Anonymous Coward]

I am beta testing THPS4 on my Zodiac right now.

This game has to be seen/played to be believed!

It runs SO SMOOTH. It's like watching TV.

As soon as more games and emulators come out for the Z, look out!