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Joel Rants About Resumes
rbrandis writes "Mr. Spolsky's latest rant is about writing a resume that will be read "Please do not use cover letters that you copied out of a book. If you write 'I understand the position also requires a candidate who is team- and detail-oriented, works well under pressure, and is able to deal with people in departments throughout the firm' then at best people will think you're a bullshit artist and at worst they will think that you were not born with the part of the brain that allows you to form your own thoughts and ideas.""
Sometimes they do look for a conformist that will work hard and implement company policy without asking to many questions. In those cases a well written and not to bold resume/CV could help. Unfortunately you dont have much chance of knowing that until after the interview.
This is my sig, show me yours
Having been responsible for the interview process, I have to agree with 95% of Joel's comments. I also used e-mail as the principal method of communication, because it allowed me to drag and drop organize an otherwise unruly pile of paper.
While I never saw an application that said "hire me d00d" from Yahoo, as he seems to be quoting, I saw some pretty awful stuff. The fact of the matter is most jobs will generate far more interest in the position than it is possible to interview through, so a good resume is your only hope of getting to the phone interview in my book.
In my experience, 50% of all applications (or more) are either:
a) Unqualified: why are you wasting your time? If I ask for C++ experience, your VB skills are probably not going to help debug the memory leaks you create.
b) Illiterate: I'm a poor speller too, but I found "spell check" and a proofreader, why can't you?
c) Inflexable: my favorite category. "I work from home in California, and telecommute" isn't going to fill position in southern Arizona. I was shocked by the quantity of these in 1999, heyday of stupid applications.
I do however make some allowances for international applicants. Some of my best finds were people with 80% command of English, but 100% command of C++, architecture and design. I'm willing to work with a language barrier, so I thought he was a bit agressive in that area.
Sig under construction since 1998.
It is amazing how poor most resume submissions are. They follow the common pattern, but in doing so manage to not stand out at all.
For example, people applying for art positions (like 3D artist) will send a resume but not a portfolio. What's up with that? I could not care less where they went to school, I only care what they can do.
The cover letter is by far the most import thing in most instances. It needs to say what the applicant is capable of. What they have done that is similar. And why they want to work for the company in question (which they should show some clue about).
Don't use "Resume Writer 2.0", just sit down and write something intelligent. Put yourself in the frame of mind of the person who has to wade through the huge influx of job seekers. Think about you would want to see in a resume/cover letter.
David Whatley
Joel's comments may be applicable when applying straight to a person within a dept. But unfortunately for many companies, the resumes are sent through HR first.
The HR people usually don't know the tecnical details about a job all that well, so they filter based on presense of Buzzwords (or so it seems a lot of the time). If you don't put the admittadly moronic "detail oriented, forward-thinking, team player" in your resume, it may not even get to the person who can actually understand what is written on the resume!
Of course this only applies to technical positions. If you are applying to a job that only asks for MS OFFICE skills, HR can probably figure it out.
This is exactly why people correct other people's English mistakes. If you aren't using it correctly when you are in casual conversation (or casual correspondence, as the case may be), you might not use it correctly when it actually matters.
Sure, he understands what you mean if you write "i m interested in your job," but if you don't have the patience or care to make even that one sentence cover letter correct, why on earth would an employer want to take a chance on you?
I'm done apologizing for wanting people to speak and spell and use English correctly. For most of you, this is your native language! Why is it shameful to want to speak it correctly?
(I probably made some grammar errors in there. I'm SURE I did, and I'm sure someone will pounce on them. I proofread this, and I have spellcheck running, and I have a pretty decent working knowledge of grammar in English, so, you know, I'm trying.)
Also spell check and let an unemployed English major review it.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
According to Joel's article, there's two reasons why he wouldn't consider you for a job if you did that. First:
And second:
I've known career counselors that have told me to do the same things you've described, but I have to admit Joel is making a lot of sense here. His company runs on very few employees, and he's always been extremely selective, so perhaps his hiring process is not the norm. However, in these times when every employer is getting hundreds of resumes for even the lowliest position, they can afford to be every bit as selective (some might say arbitrary) in their hiring processes.
Let the content of your resume do the talking, not the presentation. Follow the instructions the employer gives for applying, and proofread your application several times for clarity and spelling. Beyond that, there's not much you could that that would serve any purpose beyond annoying a potential employer. IANAHM, though. Just a schmuck who recently landed a job.
> and bullshit questions like "what is your greatest weakness".
+1 Insightful. If you don't want me to play your interview like a game, then don't make it a game. Questions like that only test my ability to study and come up with my best material before an interview. Is that what you really want, or do you want honest answers? A question like that is like your wife asking you, "Does this dress make me look fat?" The answer can only be honest if it's the truth, otherwise you must lie. If it's a sales position and you want to test my ability to bullshit smoothly, that's fine I suppose.
While I'm ranting, what's with filling out "applications". If I'm applying for a sysadmin or programmer position, you have my resume. It details everything I'm required to copy onto your damn 6 page, small type, not-enough-room, non-online-pen-online-sore-fingers application. I will fill out a life history and anything else you want if you are actually interested in me, but don't make me fill out a phonebook before I'm even issued a first interview.
And what does it matter what high school I attended? I haven't been near that town since I went to college. Who cares where I went to high school?!? It's not like I had much of a choice in the matter. And don't put a 3"x1" space and expect me to write "School Name, Address, and Phone Number" on it. Otherwise, make it an online application so you can easily change the font to 3pt when you print it out.
Again and again, I see job positions for which the applicant is asked to submit a resume via a textbox in a web form. Usually, no mention is given of what format is allowed (Plain ASCII? HTML? PDF? Tex?), so one pretty much has to assume least-common denominator, and submit in ASCII. Then, one has to pray to the line-width gods that the end product (printed out? online?) will not look too horrible compared to what you just put in.
So, for those on the other side of the table, can you please implement a simple web-file-upload protocol, and tell us what format you like?
Its very difficult to be objective and to find a "one size fits all" sort of resume guide. Even one that is written by Joel Spolsky.
Joel has some criteria that he considers more important than others.. Fine. He's doing the hiring, it is his perogative (sp?). The thing is, not all hiring managers are ticked off by the same things that Joel rants about.
I have seen resumes with a few (minor) spelling errors that wouldn't have been caught by spellcheck make it into a short list. I've also seen letter perfect ones rejected. Obviously, some managers scan through and look for work experience and qualifications. They don't notice (or care) about "having a space only AFTER the comma" (direct quote from his rant).
I also don't completely agree with his idea that "if you don't have the right qualifications, don't apply for the job". I've applied for a job asking for 4 years experience, but I only had 2 (or a bit less). I still got the job. It is a nitpick, but if you think you're close enough, it's worth giving it a shot. Obviously, asking for a DBA and getting a COBOL programmer applying isn't ideal, but some employers are flexible about years of experience and specific technologies.
Last, but not least, I don't have a domain of my own. I use my Yahoo address and check mail on it regularly. What's wrong with using a free email service anyway ?
Sorry, Mr. Spolsky. You have good points, but I wonder if your rant deserves the publicity that it is going to get with a frontpage Slashdot story. Apologies for the rant of my own :)
So, it's amazing this skill set is not available, because now they'll have to export the job offshore where apparently all the IT workers have this skill set.
Honestly, I'm surprised people look at cover letters at all, it's all fluff anyway.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
I agree with most of Joel's rants. I have been a rep at a local college(a highly reputable tech school) job fair numerous times.
I am truly amazed at how crappy some resumes are. Some students hand me resumes that are printed off-centered, bad photocopies, wrinkled from the folder they just stuffed it in, etc. If they can't take the time to print their resumes on quality paper and carry them in a resume binder, I tend to believe they are just as careless when they are working.
Spacing and formatting is also a huge problem. Highlight the most important aspects of your resume. When looking at hundreds of resumes in a few hours, you want to be able to easily spot education and skill set (especially when dealing with college students who have little experience).
Many applicants came to the job fair dressed in non-formal attire. This is not good. At least, wear a shirt and tie. Don't roll out of bed and throw on some jeans, take the time to look presentable.
Like Solsky says, do these factors hurt an applicant if they have they meet the necessary requirements, sometimes. When applying for a job, you are selling yourself and must put your best effort in every little detail. From resume to dress, you will be scrutinized and judged. Look your best.
100% Insightful
I don't think you're disagreeing all that much, really. If you're sending out 100+ resumes a day THAT YOU'RE QUALIFIED FOR, then you should have NO trouble finding a job, determination or not.
If, on the other hand, you're sending out 100+ resumes to places you're not qualified for, all you're doing is wasting everybody's time, yours included.
No job I've gotten has ever come from following up on an advertisment, anyway. They all came from networking. In each case, somebody at the company reccomended me to a hiring manager, and I sent a simple resume with nothing more than an e-mail talking about why I think I would be right for the job (and vice versa) instead of a cover letter.
Stay in touch with people you enjoy working with, even after changing jobs. That's the best advice anybody can give you. If you have connections, you will never need to mess with all this "what is the right way to write a cover letter?" nonsense, because any hiring manager who has already been out for a beer with you is not going to care about that B.S. any more than you do.
Why is it a racist remark?
Indians aren't a race. They are a nationality. There are a wide variety of ethnicities in India.
To point out that a large number have in common a particular grammatical mistake isn't racist. It's just observation.
"Stupid Indians" might be getting closer - at least it's prejudice of some sort.
There are a lot of problems that could be solved more easily if there wasn't always someone jumping out to call "racist" anytime someone points out a statistical truth about a demographic. Hey, is it racist to say that American Jews are better educated than the general population? No? Then how can it be racist to say that American blacks are less well-educated than the general population? If we can't even say it out loud, how can we solve it?
If Joel can't tell his Indian candidates (albeit in a somewhat snotty way), hey, I pay attention to grammar and punctuation, so don't give me a resume that looks like you pasted it from AIM, than how are they going to learn that his standards, and those of American employers generally, may differ from the standards to which they are accustomed?
If the job requires some Perl and some Perl is not on your resume, you will be weeded out. There will be applicants with some Perl and you won't be one of them. You might get by if it is a preferred skill, but they would just post it again if they really wanted that skill.
The real solution is to learn some Perl before you apply, even if it is only a few hours of experience. With me I kept seeing jobs requiring applicants with experience in X. I ended up setting up my own little IT department at home and I spent some time learning how to use X. If you want to be honest on your resume, say proficient in A, B, and C and then some experience with X, Y, and Z. Everybody, even the recruiter, knows that some experience could be a 1 hour class or a year of working experience. Hopefully they'll choose to clear it up in the interview (be honest if they ask).
Different places like different things. Some resume reviewers like the bullshit fluff, some don't. Sometimes being different will make you stand out from the crowd, sometimes it will get your papers in the dumpster.
I had praises about my reseme at one place (although it was not enough to get me hired but not because of the resume), and a few weeks later a recruiter told me to completely redo it.
The people who read resumes and cover letters are as diverse as the people who write them. Anyone who claims there is One Right Way is a bigger bullshit artist than those who write fluffy cover letters.
Table-ized A.I.
See, I don't get this. I wear ties when expected by our dippy culture, but I never understood what the hell they are supposed to mean. As far as I can tell, it's some pointless relic from an bygone era. I'm not saying show up in torn jeans, but why can't people be comfortable in an interveiw instead of tarting themselves up with clothing they will never be wearing on the job? Why can't we have some sort of happy medium?
Some of the most brilliant engineers and scientists have are perpetually casual dressers. It's irrelevant. Drug dealers wear suits. Kenneth Lay wore suits. Saddam Hussein wore suits. It's meaningless.
We hired a guy last year who showed up in an expensive Italian suit (he came from a semi-rich family). He turned out to be one of the biggest screw ups we've ever had, and was fired six months later for accessing porn sites on his work PC.
--- Ban humanity.
The comment about networking is dead on.
I've ranted, er, posted, about this in the past. Geeks need to learn how to network! The crap IT guys know how to network, and that's how they end up getting the jobs for which the real geeks are far more qualified.
Networking does NOT mean calling up everyone you know and asking them for a job.
Networking means that you:
1. Spend time developing a good 30 second description about the type of job you want and why you will be good at it.
2. Make a list of people you know who might know something about the jobs you want OR know someone else who knows something about the jobs you want.
3. Contact these people, give them your SHORT description of what you're looking for, and ask them if they have any advice or know anyone else that you should talk to. If you hat making cold calls, e-mail is fine for the initial contact. Just make it short, to the point, and use the spell checker.
4. Since you didn't waste their time or make them feel uncomfortable by asking for a job, they are likely to refer you to people they know.
5. Repeat as necessary.
This really works. I have gotten every job I've ever had via networking. The parent post is right: once you have an "in", you don't have to agonize so much over the cover letter. Your time is far better spent on networking than on sending out hundreds of resumes to every company you think might possibly hire you.
If you're fresh out of school and don't have many contacts yet... try your alumni association. Really. I occasionally get contacted from my alumni association, and I'm always happy to try to help. Heck, some weeks, if it gives me an excuse to get out of the office and have a nice lunch, I'd give job hunting advice to my arch enemy. I'll certainly do it for some kid fresh out of school, and I'll probably even pay for lunch.
It works in other fields as well.
It's not just the trite "it's not what you know, it's who you know" philosophy... it goes deeper than that.
What can distinguish you from the clamoring masses, all wanting the same job or position? Personal recommendation... all the way. This is partially how I got a residency slot I wanted, and my current medical job.
I was offered a residency slot based on my qualifications, but also because a department chairman at my medical school was personal friends with the department chairman at the residency site. A letter of recommendation and a phone call later, and the residency site chairman personally came to my interview, asked for me by name out of a room full of faceless medical students (talk about some envious glances... competition can be cutthroat in medicine), thanked me for applying, and told me to thanks his buddy for calling ahead (I knew about the letter, but that was the first I knew of the phone call).
My current job was offered to me long after I applied... my current director approached a mutual acquaintance from my residency program, and asked him about me. His response? "pure gold... you should hire him yesterday." (I don't know about that "pure gold" part... he may have oversold me a bit...).
The point remains... you can be qualified and never be hired if you get lost in the resume` shuffle... but that networking, word-of-mouth contact is money in the bank.
Also, the employer is understandably hedging his bets by not hiring someone sight-unseen, who may or may not play well with others, who may or may not be dishonest, etc, etc... personal confirmation of a person's claimed credentials/ability is key. And for those of you who think this is somehow wrong, we're talking about a good word from a friend, not someone's daddy getting him a job that he's totally unqualified to do. I despise nepotism as much as anyone.
Never, never underestimate the value of a friend...
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I suspect that Mr. Spolsky might have poorly stated his case. Applying for dozens or hundreds of different jobs at the same large employer does look bad--or at least really, really desperate. Your resume is going to get binned becuase they figure if you're too lazy to figure out which positions at a company might be appropriate for you, they're certainly not going to do it for you.
If he did mean to suggest one should only apply for three or four jobs total at a time...yes, that's poor advice for most of us. If you're extremely senior or have very specialized skills that are genuinely in demand then you can afford to be picky--shotgunning resumes looks very unprofessional, even desperate. Besides, someone who is looking for work at that high a level probably shouldn't be doing it without professional help. Wannabe CEOs/CIOs/CFOs don't usually send a form letter out to hundreds of companies.
Still, it's certainly good form to appear to only be sending out a few resumes. Creating the appearance of confidence is good. A custom cover letter for each job at each employer can help tremendously, if only by drawing attention to the key points of your standard resume. Be short, sweet, and to the point. Construct it out out of a pool of boilerplate sentences if you like, but at least change more than the company name at the top. This is particularly important if you apply to more than one job at the same employer--identical cover letters for different jobs is poor packaging. It looks rather lazy if the same HR department screens both resumes.
The great-grandparent poster complained that his experiences have "led me to believe that spending a great deal of time on each application/resume/cover letter I send out for Yet Another Job Opening would consume an amount of time equivelent to a full-time job". Well, yes. Finding a job is a job! You have to work at it. It's a skillset that (hopefully) you don't use very often, so you have to work harder at it than you think! When you get a job, you're going to spend the bulk of your waking hours at it--why aren't you willing to invest the time in getting noticed by a worthwhile employer? Spending half an hour a day browsing Monster.com is a luxury to be enjoyed by the employed.
~Idarubicin
[Re: "What's your greatest weakness?"]
... with all due respect, perhaps the reason you've heard this question "billions of times" (i.e., you've been to a lot of interviews, i.e., you tend to get rejected for a lot of jobs) is because you lie, and simply regurgitate a stock answer.
It's a stupid question because all your doing is testing the ability of someone to lie on the spot. The rest of us who've heard this question a billion times will just give the stock answer we've given in every other interview.
Uhm,
Has it occurred to you to be honest?
When I first started attending career counseling, they warned me about this question, and our homework was to prepare an answer. We all compared in class, and came up with the "good" answers ("I work too hard," "I'm a perfectionist," yada yada yada), and sure enough, on my interviews, I heard the question. So I spat back the "perfectionist" line, they quietly noted my response and showed no reaction. Why should they? They'd asked the question a hundred times before, and they'd heard my answer a hundred times before.
Eventually, I got sick of it. So the next time I was asked, I answered honestly. "I can sometimes have narrow vision. That is, I'm type-A and can focus all my energies on one thing. This often yeilds stellar results for that task, but at the expense of other important things that I may have neglected. However, I'm aware that I have this tendency and am working to improve my multi-tasking abilities."
I got the job. They even commented that they admired my honesty and self-deprecating candor.
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