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Joel Rants About Resumes
rbrandis writes "Mr. Spolsky's latest rant is about writing a resume that will be read "Please do not use cover letters that you copied out of a book. If you write 'I understand the position also requires a candidate who is team- and detail-oriented, works well under pressure, and is able to deal with people in departments throughout the firm' then at best people will think you're a bullshit artist and at worst they will think that you were not born with the part of the brain that allows you to form your own thoughts and ideas.""
There was a guy that applied for a programming job. He wrote on his resume that he knew C++ and C since he heard about those classes in college. So naturally he figured that there must also be C+ language and wrote it into his resume. The HR looked at his resume and lo and behold .. he was hired.
Having been responsible for the interview process, I have to agree with 95% of Joel's comments. I also used e-mail as the principal method of communication, because it allowed me to drag and drop organize an otherwise unruly pile of paper.
While I never saw an application that said "hire me d00d" from Yahoo, as he seems to be quoting, I saw some pretty awful stuff. The fact of the matter is most jobs will generate far more interest in the position than it is possible to interview through, so a good resume is your only hope of getting to the phone interview in my book.
In my experience, 50% of all applications (or more) are either:
a) Unqualified: why are you wasting your time? If I ask for C++ experience, your VB skills are probably not going to help debug the memory leaks you create.
b) Illiterate: I'm a poor speller too, but I found "spell check" and a proofreader, why can't you?
c) Inflexable: my favorite category. "I work from home in California, and telecommute" isn't going to fill position in southern Arizona. I was shocked by the quantity of these in 1999, heyday of stupid applications.
I do however make some allowances for international applicants. Some of my best finds were people with 80% command of English, but 100% command of C++, architecture and design. I'm willing to work with a language barrier, so I thought he was a bit agressive in that area.
Sig under construction since 1998.
Do not lie. Lies are eventually revealed, you waste your time and theirs.
Keep it to what's current and to the subject.
Make it readable and non-technical. It's going to be screened by HR people, they're typically really bad with technical details.
Keep a text copy, some people want to receive resumes through horrible web interfaces.
Nobody gives a crap about your hobbies, unless then involve lots of theft of past employers property, in which case they'll appreciate your candor.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It is amazing how poor most resume submissions are. They follow the common pattern, but in doing so manage to not stand out at all.
For example, people applying for art positions (like 3D artist) will send a resume but not a portfolio. What's up with that? I could not care less where they went to school, I only care what they can do.
The cover letter is by far the most import thing in most instances. It needs to say what the applicant is capable of. What they have done that is similar. And why they want to work for the company in question (which they should show some clue about).
Don't use "Resume Writer 2.0", just sit down and write something intelligent. Put yourself in the frame of mind of the person who has to wade through the huge influx of job seekers. Think about you would want to see in a resume/cover letter.
David Whatley
Joel's comments may be applicable when applying straight to a person within a dept. But unfortunately for many companies, the resumes are sent through HR first.
The HR people usually don't know the tecnical details about a job all that well, so they filter based on presense of Buzzwords (or so it seems a lot of the time). If you don't put the admittadly moronic "detail oriented, forward-thinking, team player" in your resume, it may not even get to the person who can actually understand what is written on the resume!
Of course this only applies to technical positions. If you are applying to a job that only asks for MS OFFICE skills, HR can probably figure it out.
This is exactly why people correct other people's English mistakes. If you aren't using it correctly when you are in casual conversation (or casual correspondence, as the case may be), you might not use it correctly when it actually matters.
Sure, he understands what you mean if you write "i m interested in your job," but if you don't have the patience or care to make even that one sentence cover letter correct, why on earth would an employer want to take a chance on you?
I'm done apologizing for wanting people to speak and spell and use English correctly. For most of you, this is your native language! Why is it shameful to want to speak it correctly?
(I probably made some grammar errors in there. I'm SURE I did, and I'm sure someone will pounce on them. I proofread this, and I have spellcheck running, and I have a pretty decent working knowledge of grammar in English, so, you know, I'm trying.)
Buzzwords. Acronyms. Keywords.
In anything much bigger than a 2-person shop these days, resumes pretty much just go unread into a database. They are only seen by a human if they match a retrieval request. For that to happen, you have to have the keywords that the hiring manager typed.
The rest doesn't much matter. If a retrieval doesn't match your resume, it will never be retrieved, and will never be read by a human.
One thing still missing from the databases: They need information on how long a given acronym, uh, I mean product, has been out. This would cut down on managers looking for five years experience on something that was released less than a year ago.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them."
It's hard enough to remember my opinions, never mind the reasons for them..
Gees. I gotta disagree, here.
First of all, what does my prospective employer have to do with what other positions I apply for?
And second, I think that shows a sign of determination and, in these times, you seem to need just that to get a job. Gone are the "one phone call to the recruiter" days of finding 50 job offers. In fact, my last recruiter called ME a few months ago looking for a position for herself...
Go ahead, apply for every job THAT YOU'RE QUALIFIED FOR, and sort through the results yourself. Get out, get noticed. If your prospective employer thinks you should sit around on your ass and pretend that you're qualified and live off of Ramen and potatos for months while you wait, then you probably don't want to work for him.
Any sufficiently well-organized Government is indistinguishable from bullshit.
According to Joel's article, there's two reasons why he wouldn't consider you for a job if you did that. First:
And second:
I've known career counselors that have told me to do the same things you've described, but I have to admit Joel is making a lot of sense here. His company runs on very few employees, and he's always been extremely selective, so perhaps his hiring process is not the norm. However, in these times when every employer is getting hundreds of resumes for even the lowliest position, they can afford to be every bit as selective (some might say arbitrary) in their hiring processes.
Let the content of your resume do the talking, not the presentation. Follow the instructions the employer gives for applying, and proofread your application several times for clarity and spelling. Beyond that, there's not much you could that that would serve any purpose beyond annoying a potential employer. IANAHM, though. Just a schmuck who recently landed a job.
Joel, as I'm sure you know, was one of the technical guys behind VBA in Excel, along with some other fairly big projects. He apparently made enough money from these gigs that he went off and started his own company, initially focusing on consulting (at the most unfortunate time to be in consulting...), and then moving into shrink wrap software. Apparently they're doing okay as they recently moved into a pretty impressive new office, still in swanky (and expensive) New York City.
Joel is a big advocate of treating developers well, and is respected for generally being pragmatic and insightful, with a humorous writing style that is informative while remaining entertaining. On the flip side, a couple of his recent posts have been blatant quid-pro-quos with some friends of his, and he's selling out a bit with the Programmer's Paradise gig.
> and bullshit questions like "what is your greatest weakness".
+1 Insightful. If you don't want me to play your interview like a game, then don't make it a game. Questions like that only test my ability to study and come up with my best material before an interview. Is that what you really want, or do you want honest answers? A question like that is like your wife asking you, "Does this dress make me look fat?" The answer can only be honest if it's the truth, otherwise you must lie. If it's a sales position and you want to test my ability to bullshit smoothly, that's fine I suppose.
While I'm ranting, what's with filling out "applications". If I'm applying for a sysadmin or programmer position, you have my resume. It details everything I'm required to copy onto your damn 6 page, small type, not-enough-room, non-online-pen-online-sore-fingers application. I will fill out a life history and anything else you want if you are actually interested in me, but don't make me fill out a phonebook before I'm even issued a first interview.
And what does it matter what high school I attended? I haven't been near that town since I went to college. Who cares where I went to high school?!? It's not like I had much of a choice in the matter. And don't put a 3"x1" space and expect me to write "School Name, Address, and Phone Number" on it. Otherwise, make it an online application so you can easily change the font to 3pt when you print it out.
Its very difficult to be objective and to find a "one size fits all" sort of resume guide. Even one that is written by Joel Spolsky.
Joel has some criteria that he considers more important than others.. Fine. He's doing the hiring, it is his perogative (sp?). The thing is, not all hiring managers are ticked off by the same things that Joel rants about.
I have seen resumes with a few (minor) spelling errors that wouldn't have been caught by spellcheck make it into a short list. I've also seen letter perfect ones rejected. Obviously, some managers scan through and look for work experience and qualifications. They don't notice (or care) about "having a space only AFTER the comma" (direct quote from his rant).
I also don't completely agree with his idea that "if you don't have the right qualifications, don't apply for the job". I've applied for a job asking for 4 years experience, but I only had 2 (or a bit less). I still got the job. It is a nitpick, but if you think you're close enough, it's worth giving it a shot. Obviously, asking for a DBA and getting a COBOL programmer applying isn't ideal, but some employers are flexible about years of experience and specific technologies.
Last, but not least, I don't have a domain of my own. I use my Yahoo address and check mail on it regularly. What's wrong with using a free email service anyway ?
Sorry, Mr. Spolsky. You have good points, but I wonder if your rant deserves the publicity that it is going to get with a frontpage Slashdot story. Apologies for the rant of my own :)
So, it's amazing this skill set is not available, because now they'll have to export the job offshore where apparently all the IT workers have this skill set.
Honestly, I'm surprised people look at cover letters at all, it's all fluff anyway.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Why do you call it a "bullshit question"?
Because it is an easy thing for the interviewer to ask. It shows no ingenuity nor does it reflect highly on the interviewer's intelligence. It is the kind of question a retarded person would ask thinking it makes them look smart.
Not only that, it can be considered an inappropriate invasion of privacy. "...so, what's your greatest weakness..." "I have a vodka and squirrel fetish that I simply cannot shake!" Even then, both the question and answer is completely irrelevant to the job; as long as the guy doesn't show up drunk with squirrels in his pockets, you shouldn't care what his greatest weakness is (given he is a reliable and competent employee).
Vote in November. You won't regret it.
Nobody gives a crap about your hobbies
... one lady wrote such a long detailed list of her hobbies that we wondered how on earth she could ever find any time to do any work ... so we didn't interview her. So, that section of her CV was useful to us.
Not quite
The trick with resumes is to get noticed, but not for the wrong reasons. A resume (at least in the tech world) has to walk a fine line: you want to get past the HR people who will be looking for keywords, but you also have to prove to the tech person who will end up reading it that you are not a total tool.
My last resume worked pretty well; I sent it to 5 employers and got 3 interviews (the other 2 were, frankly, out of my league but it never hurt anybody to aim high). The 3 interviews got me 2 offers, and I have a job from one of them.
From the resumes and cover letters I've been seing lately, I would offer this advice to job seekers:
Anyways, that's just me and YMMV. Selling is easy it just takes the will to close the guy.
All's true that is mistrusted
No job I've gotten has ever come from following up on an advertisment, anyway. They all came from networking. In each case, somebody at the company reccomended me to a hiring manager, and I sent a simple resume with nothing more than an e-mail talking about why I think I would be right for the job (and vice versa) instead of a cover letter.
Stay in touch with people you enjoy working with, even after changing jobs. That's the best advice anybody can give you. If you have connections, you will never need to mess with all this "what is the right way to write a cover letter?" nonsense, because any hiring manager who has already been out for a beer with you is not going to care about that B.S. any more than you do.
I was interviewing an individual not too recently and in reply to a question about why our company and this position was interesting to him, he replied, 'I've been out of work for a year, I have a wife and three kids and we're hungry.'
He fit most of the qualifications for the position fairly well, but that was the answer that swayed our interview team's vote. He's been an ideal employee since day 1.
Exception? Probably, but his brutal honesty was what really threw the vote his direction over the other candidates.
If the job requires some Perl and some Perl is not on your resume, you will be weeded out. There will be applicants with some Perl and you won't be one of them. You might get by if it is a preferred skill, but they would just post it again if they really wanted that skill.
The real solution is to learn some Perl before you apply, even if it is only a few hours of experience. With me I kept seeing jobs requiring applicants with experience in X. I ended up setting up my own little IT department at home and I spent some time learning how to use X. If you want to be honest on your resume, say proficient in A, B, and C and then some experience with X, Y, and Z. Everybody, even the recruiter, knows that some experience could be a 1 hour class or a year of working experience. Hopefully they'll choose to clear it up in the interview (be honest if they ask).
See, I don't get this. I wear ties when expected by our dippy culture, but I never understood what the hell they are supposed to mean. As far as I can tell, it's some pointless relic from an bygone era. I'm not saying show up in torn jeans, but why can't people be comfortable in an interveiw instead of tarting themselves up with clothing they will never be wearing on the job? Why can't we have some sort of happy medium?
Some of the most brilliant engineers and scientists have are perpetually casual dressers. It's irrelevant. Drug dealers wear suits. Kenneth Lay wore suits. Saddam Hussein wore suits. It's meaningless.
We hired a guy last year who showed up in an expensive Italian suit (he came from a semi-rich family). He turned out to be one of the biggest screw ups we've ever had, and was fired six months later for accessing porn sites on his work PC.
--- Ban humanity.
I've been in the job market for several years. I have a perfect resume, lots of experience that is suitable to a variety of positions, and a lifetime of experience searching for jobs. Since I usually get nibbles when I do find jobs to apply to, I would argue that the problem is the terrible job market and incompetent employers. This rant about bad resumes might be amusing to those of us used to belittling our fellow co-workers, but when I've been involved in the hiring process, most of the resumes I've seen have been pretty adequate.
The real problem here are incompetent, rude, and stupid employers. I've been through enough interview situations to know that the real incompetent factor in the job interview process is usually the employer. What burns me up these days are employers who can't even bother to contact you after you've gone in and interviewed with them. Think about it. You go out of your way to dress up for an interview, get your butt to the interview, spend an hour or two answering questions, and then the potential employers can't be bothered to contact you about the outcome of the interview.
Here is a short list of rude and stupid behavior that I have experienced from potential employers:
1) If you are contacting me to set up an interview, I assume that you have noticed the fact that I live halfway across the country from your office. Do you understand what a *phone interview* is?
2) It is rude behavior to leave an interviewee in a room so you can go get some cake at the department birthday party (Aspen Sytems in Washington, DC).
3) When you ask me stupid questions like "What are your greatest strengths and weaknesses?" I make a mental note that I will not work for your company.
4) I sent you a nice resumer, cover letter and thank you letter after the interview. The least you can do is send me a rejection letter when you have made your decision.
5) Please don't spring "tests" and "homework assigments" on me when I show up for an interview. Please have some respect for my experience, skills, and time. Just because you think that it is a cute idea to send me home with "homework," doesn't mean that you are finding out anything more than you could have learned from my resume and interview. Stop wasting my time!
6) If the interview is going to take more than an hour, please tell me ahead of time so I can adjust my plans accordingly. It really sucks to show up for an interview only to be handed an "itinerary" for three hours of interviews.
7) It says a lot about your organization when you interview me once, then interview me again three months later, and never bother following up with me with a phone call or letter (ACLU).
8) Don't assume that I will leave the job because I am "overqualified." If I bothered to show up for the interview, then I have solid reasons to want the job. Did it ever occur to you that I might want a part time job so I can have time for the family or other projects or jobs?
9) Where do I see myself in five years? Probably in your job, if this is the most intelligent question you can throw at me.
Yeah, people write bad resumes, but let's talk about stupid employer tricks!
The comment about networking is dead on.
I've ranted, er, posted, about this in the past. Geeks need to learn how to network! The crap IT guys know how to network, and that's how they end up getting the jobs for which the real geeks are far more qualified.
Networking does NOT mean calling up everyone you know and asking them for a job.
Networking means that you:
1. Spend time developing a good 30 second description about the type of job you want and why you will be good at it.
2. Make a list of people you know who might know something about the jobs you want OR know someone else who knows something about the jobs you want.
3. Contact these people, give them your SHORT description of what you're looking for, and ask them if they have any advice or know anyone else that you should talk to. If you hat making cold calls, e-mail is fine for the initial contact. Just make it short, to the point, and use the spell checker.
4. Since you didn't waste their time or make them feel uncomfortable by asking for a job, they are likely to refer you to people they know.
5. Repeat as necessary.
This really works. I have gotten every job I've ever had via networking. The parent post is right: once you have an "in", you don't have to agonize so much over the cover letter. Your time is far better spent on networking than on sending out hundreds of resumes to every company you think might possibly hire you.
If you're fresh out of school and don't have many contacts yet... try your alumni association. Really. I occasionally get contacted from my alumni association, and I'm always happy to try to help. Heck, some weeks, if it gives me an excuse to get out of the office and have a nice lunch, I'd give job hunting advice to my arch enemy. I'll certainly do it for some kid fresh out of school, and I'll probably even pay for lunch.
And remember that spell checkers won't catch misspellings that spell another word.
I hat it when that happens.