Slashdot Mirror
India Becoming a Major Hub for Western Job Seekers
MaximusTheGreat writes: "IHT and Financial Express report that many qualified Western professionals are moving to India for jobs. Two of the most common reasons mentioned are adding the Indian experience to the CV and search of better opportunities in a booming Indian economy. According to a Mumbai based head hunting firm, "A lot of the highly qualified talent has traditionally been mobile and attracted to centers of excellence globally. This was true of the US in the early 80s when top flight talent from India migrated in search of better opportunities. Today, the same is happening to economies such as India and China" This should also bust the myth that foreigners are not allowed work in India."
This is why I got out of computer science to be an electrical engineer. My advisor always encouraged me to study abroad in India because that's where everything is shifting. I did not want to do this. I hope that this trend does not continue :(
Hey, free movement of labor is required for fairness of free movement of capital.
Depending on what sort of world you want, I guess.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I'm about to go onto college. I planned on majoring in CompSci, but I don't want to move aboard to get a job.
Are Electrical Engineers having any similar problems with jobs being outsourced?
Which degree should I get?
Indian Culture is much different from the American one. Such migration might not help at all.. considering that the Americans will have tough time adjusting to the culture in the first place. Moreover, given India is such a big country, many companies would rather do with a talented Indian who understands the work culture and how businesses are run rather than a foreigner.
Yes, you may have a job. But you have to reconcile yourself to a lower quality of life in India. It may cost less to live there, but at the same time, there are a few things that are taken for granted in the West, which aren't as easy to get there. The standards for judging things are far different from life in the West.
PhD and MSc workers are relatively thick on the ground there, especially in Engineering disciplines. The way things are in India, a lot of people (yes, I have many indian friends) want to move out due to competition from their peers, and difficulty in finding jobs. With this in mind, it's easy to understand why one article openly states that a main reason for hiring Europeans is to "represent their interests" in the home country.
When you go work in India, you may save some cash, for sure.. but if you don't plan on living there for the rest of your life, when you come back to your own country, you will find that the savings don't necessarily translate to much in your local currency.
Does all this sound like I am against people moving to India ? not at all. Just that, as the title of my post suggests, I doubt we're ever going to see a vast inrush of Europeans/Americans working in India at low level positions. Indian companies may be savvy enough to snap up a few qualified and experienced personnel, but for the greater majority of those out of work, India isn't the answer. There is a reason why there are STILL so many Indian workers in Silicon Valley and other technology hubs.
I know, I know, first posts are ALWAYS moderated -1 offtopic, but this one was kinda funny!
You would expect to move to another country and not make lifestyle and mental adjustments????
The can be surprising cultural differences even between western countries.
I was stunded by the number of beggers in the US when I worked there, in San Francisco at least.
That and the feet police, in NZ its quite common to strop about in bearfeet. I all most got arrested in a mall because I wasn't wearing shoes.
Anally retentive? More difficult?
You can come to the United States without a long term visa, THEN find work, THEN get your visa status changed. That's pretty NON-anally retentive. Do that in Australia and not only will you find yourself back home, you can never return.
It is the fact that we are so ridiculously permissive and the rest of the world still cries that we're "generally regarded to be the most anally retentive country in the world when it comes to immigration" that pisses us off because practically nowhere else is so open.
Go try to get yourself German citizenship and get back to me on how restrictive the United States is.
Apparently, the VA location beat out Mexico to land the factory. No joke.
I for one, know a few people (me included) that are open to jobs abroad after college. Right after college is a great time to do something new and interesting in a new environment. In a decade, having global experience will be a very valuable trait.
As for the retirement aspect or moving back to the U.S. In a decade or two India's economy will grow big enough to match many of those around the world.
Many people think India is 3rd world, but from what I've heard about their big cities, they're pretty much exactly like our metropolitan hubs. Yeah, the rest of the country needs to catch up, but don't you think Wyoming needs to catch up the rest of the U.S. too?
Dude, I'm SO with you.
No, seriously!
A lot of my coder friends have actually expressed similar sentiment.
Just don't know how to do it. That's all..!
I do programming for a living, and quite honestly, most anyone with the proper training can do most common programming tasks. There certainly are those gifted, top 10 percent programmers (which I am not one, I freely admit), but most programming is not the glamour projects, and is often tedious and boring. It seems that a lot of the jobs that are being outsourced are of this type. Programming has become a commodity in a lot of respects, and is awarded to the lowest bidder.
This is not something new. Many other industries that were American dominated at one time, such as steel, have had similar things happen. Software is just the latest. And why should the rest of the world be excluded if they can do the job more economically? Being an American doesn't make me any better a programmer, or any more deserving than anyone else.
We do that as well--it's called a fscking H1-B. We also grant EB-[1-5] visas ex post facto. You also don't have to be a highly skilled professional. You can be a dish washer.
Immigration is difficult anywhere, but to claim that the United States is "the most anally retentive," especially compared to Australia and New Zealand, is just ridiculous. For Christ's sake, we've done blanket amnesties for illegal aliens. Sort of "right, lost track of all of you, can't be bothered, you're legal now." We're about to do it again this year. Oh, how anally retentive.
I'm switching careers to trades. It isn't that hard and most of us can work with our hands and will take twenty seconds instead of twenty minutes to calculate how much tile is needed for the bathroom walls. I've already done a few tiling projects on the side and now I'm getting my electrician's papers. Soon I'll be able to cover everything from finishing carpentry to wiring and plumbing. Pays just as well as the office job did at peak if you're willing to work hard. Last month I netted $5,000CAD (I live north of the border) which is a very healthy sum here especially that that's AFTER TAX money. And wehn was the last time you heard of a plumber being outsourced to India? That's right my friedns, when that pipe bursts in your CEO's house even the 20,000 Indians he's hired arent gonna be much use at 15,000 miles away.
So my friends, next time you hear that your job is getting shipped to India tell your manager that she can kiss your ass goodbye because it's a great opportunity to give up your (most likely) shitty job and do something useful instead. You'll be surprised how rewarding trades can be compared to an office job.
Oh and in the evening (that's right trade jobs run 9 to 5 not 8 to midnight, imagine that!) when you get home there is no reason not to fire up the computer and do some open source coding, for fun, without the stresss and aggravation of a PHB meddling with good things and making stupid suggestions. Write some great software and donate it to Open Source. Even Indians can't compete with that pricing model :-)
So my friends this is our new reality we all have to face. We all love programming but it doesn't make us money anymore. It started out as a hobby (for most of us) and now is the time it went back to being a hobby. For a living however, we must do something more lucrative that can't be outsourced by the next bunch of stuffed shirts. Like trades.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
I'm fine with high income tax if somethings done with it.
In many of those countries the result is less of a divide between rich and poor... most people are distinctly middle class, which is almost the only class. And their government takes care of everyone nicely and provides for its citizens. It's big government without being overbearing and infringing on its citizens liberties. I personally think countries like Denmark are role models for the rest of the world these days.
Your last paragraph points out something very important. When you leave liberal societies, you are leaving your freedoms. That is the most important thing. Things like standard of living, etc can be adjusted. But freedoms are something else. Most countries, including India, offer few freedoms. India is nothing more than a kleptocracy, with Hindu fundamentalist tendancies. You are talking about a country where kissing on film (movies) is largely banned, all films are censored, etc. Some people have even been thrown in jail (for short periods of time) for releasing "controversial" films. You are also talking about a corrupt government. And so forth.
If you are a conservative, or could care less about criticizing the government, then these governments are fine. But if you say something, watch out.
Same thing with China, except multiply everything I said by 1000x.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
My company just asked me to relocate to the Philippines for a 1-2 years (minimum) so they have someone on-site at all times. Now keep in mind my situation is different from most people in the tech industry --- I'm keeping my hourly wage, and the company is covering my housing expenses (I would have a 3-bedroom villa in a gated community, a maid, a security guard and a driver --- all that is costing them less than US$1000/month). So the deal is sweeter than moving to India, but the principles are the same.
Right now I'm in the middle of my first trip to the Philippines and it's been... a trip to say the least. Everything about this experience has been positive, largely because Filipinos seem, as a whole, a happy, gregarious people.
Everyone here speaks at least some English and anyone with an office job speaks exceptional English. The only place we ever stumble is on phrases and idioms. (Quite honestly English here is on average better than in the states --- McDonald's employees speak better English than they do in the US)
Food is American friendly... if you absolutely must, there's McDonalds, KFC, PizzaHut, etc. but the local food is also quite good. Markets and grocery stores are fine, and you can certainly muster American fare from what you can find there. And everything is cheap --- I ate for about $3/day last week and, last night, splurged and bought a $10 meal at a resort restaraunt.
After that I went out to one of the hottest clubs in the city and spent about $30 on cover charge, a couple drinks for myself, and a round for 15 of my coworkers. (When I say coworkers I mean "very intelligent, funny, cute, single women all under 30" we'll leave it at that.)
My advice -- don't reject the idea of moving overseas outright. Regardless if you come back ahead or not, it's going to be a great life experience and be a nice item on your resume.
why shouldn't India take advantage of the brain drain?
Sure let every highly skilled Westerner you can grab enter your country! Makes your nation "smarter" and your global competitors dumber..
Worked really well for a few years here in the States
For those who are considering moving to India.
Temperatures in India range from -40 celsius to +50.
In the Northern part of India, we have extreme climate, but in the southern, where Bangalore in located, we have equable type of climate.
In the North, the mighty Himalayas and many hill stationsare relatively closer. You can go to these hill stations like the British used to do. Sometimes they had two capitals, one for summers and another for winter.
There are several scenic spots in Southern India. I have never been there, but tourists' accounts say that it is greener and cleaner. Kerala is a very beautiful place. It is ruled by Communists though.
Sports.
India is crazy about cricket. It is like baseball except that you can hit the ball and choose not to run.
If the temperature is a low 38 degrees in April and you don't feel like working, you can always go out and play cricket.
Diet.
Indian food is world renowned. However, lot of mixing (also known as adulteration) occurs. The net result is that you don't get to consume as much fat as you would in USA or Canada or UK. Therefore, you lose weight. Also, 365 days of sun per year ensures you become more tanned.
Imagine the combined effect of this. Once you go back home after a stint in India, girls are going to make a beeline for you.
I just saw a job posting on a website yesterday that specified that they were looking for people who were willing to work at "Indian Salary Levels" and then pointed to an Indian job web site as a reference to find out what "competitive" bids were.
That definitely has me a bit concerned. I'm a programmer and I work out of Mexico, so while I can offer pretty competitive rates, I still expect to get paid well. Unfortunately the market is saturated by programmers, and I believe with time, that will change as programers continue to drop out because of job competition.
Really, my take on it, at least in the States, is that a lot of people went into software to make money. I think now that it's harder to make good money at it, the ones that are going to stick around are going to generally be the ones who really love doing it. Hopefully that will level the market out a bit.
The fact remains that some of us are quite skilled at what we do and that some people, no matter how hard they try, aren't going to be nearly as good as those of us who are in this field because we love the write software and have a natural ability with it. For the same reason, I'll never play guitar like Eddie Van Halen or paint like Van Gogh (and that's not to imply that I think I'm the Eddie Van Halen or Vincent Van Gogh of computer programming).
For most of the time I've been in this field (the last 4 years notwithstanding), most of the programmers were people that really loved it and the ratio of really good programmers to mediocre programers was fairly high. That ratio has reversed in the past few years. When it returns, I suspect the pay will get closer to what we expect as well.
Even here in Mexico, and granted, I live in one of the pricier towns in Mexico, living at Indian pay rates is simply out of the question.