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Refunding an Xbox Live Annual Renewal Fee?
craigandthem is curious about the following: "Recently, I was going over my credit card statement, and noticed a charge I didn't remember making. After investigating, I determined that it was an auto-renewal for my Xbox Live account (for an Xbox that hasn't worked in months). I called to have the fee refunded, and Microsoft refused. They informed me that since it had been longer than 60 days from when my account was renewed, I was not eligible for a refund. The problem lies in that they didn't charge my credit card until December 26, despite renewing my account on November 15. I feel that this was done to increase the odds that I'd only be aware of the charge after it was too late to have reversed. They also claim I had fair warning I was going to be charged, since they sent me an email detailing my upcoming renewal. The email was sent to an old university account, which was de-activated after I graduated, and therefore never received. Have any fellow Slashdot readers received similar treatment, and if so, were you able to recover your money? Legally, is it my obligation to keep my Xbox Live information up to date to avoid this dilemma?"
At least for things not done in person. With a credit card you can simply call your company and contest the charges. Maybe enough people doing that will send a message.
Those who don't know me, probably shouldn't trust me. Those that do know me, DEFINITELY shouldn't trust me.
Don't be surprised by anything on your credit card statement. Check them at least once a week online or by phone. Or every day if you use your card a lot.
Whenever you see something you don't recognize (or in this case, didn't expect), immediately, or the next morning, call the responsible party (Microsoft). Do what you can to resolve the issue.
If you can't resolve the issue, because of *your* screwup (which might be the case, since Microsoft made the rules pretty clear I think), then too bad.
But if you still think you have a "case", immediately *WRITE* the credit card company a concise letter describing the problem. There are usually instructions on the back of the statement.
I have found that most of these things are quickly resolved by the credit card company. The merchants do not like chargebacks or investigations from the credit card companies and will solve the problem pretty quick.
In your situation, you *may* get results if you insist, calling several times over a few days, talking to different people, and generally being firm. But if you don't, you can't really press the issue because you didn't act immediately.
This is really not an issue with Microsoft or the Xbox service. It happens with anybody that wants your money.
Be sure to read all your agreements, and if they have deadlines, put them in your calendar! (i.e., Xbox auto-renews in 30 days, 15 days, tomorrow).
Good luck!
Take your Xbox...put it on the floor next to your TV. Turn it on (may I suggest "Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball"?!?!). Take a bath.
Come back when you're all wet. Take a sheet rock saw and start sawing away at the Xbox's power cord while you're all wet.
Soon, the cord will fray, and it will electrocute you. Now you're dead! This is a good thing, because you're no longer bound by the laws of time/space.
Go back in time and develop Cinnamon Rice Krispies instead of Cocoa Krispies. Then leave a sheet rock saw under your couch so that your future self will be able to use it to kill himself, setting you free.
If you follow these easy instructions, the Xbox will be free of all demons! And it will stay crunchy in milk!
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
I don't have an Xbox or a Live account, but here is what I would do.
1. Submit a Better Business complaint in from the website www.bbb.org
2. Dispute this fee with your credit card company. Explain to them everything you just told us.
3. Sit back and watch the 2 big companies battle it out.
A company simply can not charge you for services you no longer need. Just because it's their policy to charge you doens't mean that it was legal or even that it was morally right. Once you involve the BBB into something that is questionable they seem to make the company turn itself around.
Either way, when you entered in the access code, postal address, email address, and CC # the Live! system put up a big full screen text window on your TV that said (paraphrasing), "Your account is good for X days from today. If you don't cancel your account before then it will be automatically renewed and your CC will be charged."
They then warned you of the impending CC charge via email. That you didn't update your email address with them isn't their fault, it's yours.
Bottom line - You agreed to the Terms of Service. You agreed to allow Microsoft to charge your CC for a yearly renewal, you didn't cancel by the date specified, and you didn't provide Microsoft with current contact information.
Next time you should remember when you enter into a revolving service contract that the bill will come due at some point unless you take responsibility for cancelling the service if you no longer need or want it.
If you're real anti-MS, you can probably call your Better Business Bureau and get them involved first, since it sounds to me like you have a pretty reasonable case against them.
I know god exists. I read it on the internet, so it must be true.
If I have this straight, your argument is approximately as follows:
You: "Hey, I didn't use my wireless phone at all this month - why are you charging me for it?"
Phone company: "You initiated service with us, agreed to the service contract and set up auto-pay using your credit card number."
You: "But you never sent me a paper bill to my new address!"
Phone company: "Oh, so you moved without telling us? How were we supposed to send you the auto-bill receipts if you didn't tell us when you moved?"
You: "This fucking sucks! I'm going to post on Slashdot!"
Stop whining. You are responsible for your neglegence - not Microsoft. You *asked* them to charge you.
Moral of the story is: Don't buy shit you're not going to use, then act all suprised when you actually have to pay for it.
If this were a reoccurring fee with TiVo or Apple or a Linux company, I'd say that you had fair warning and it's your fault for not protecting your money. I'd say that these things happen from time to time and the best thing to do is to suck it up and learn from the experience.
But since this is Microsoft they have maliciously cheated you out of your money and you should do everything you can do to get it back. Call your credit card company and accuse them of fraud. Do it so that they don't extend their IE monopoly into the game console arena and so they'll give away all their source code under the GPL!
If this were some company that Slashdot wasn't predisposed to I'd probably have advice somewhere in the middle of those two answers.
Why can't I moderate something "Wrong" or at least "Grossly Misinformed"?
It's not fraud.
Find a license agreement (even if you have to go to a store that will let you read one). It's like a lot of services and automatically renews. On any service like this, once you sign up and pay, it is up to you to cancel. The fact that you didn't cancel it, give them an updated e-mail addy, or check your bill when it came in is your fault.
I wish I could say this is another cause of Microsoft giving customers the shaft, but I can't when you ignored your responsibilities.
I will say, as someone who tried MSN, that Microsoft does make it tough to cancel, often requiring passwords you may have forgotten, or specifically notifying them at least 60 days before renewal, but, again, most services automatically renew. It's their way of increasing income. A lot of services count on people forgetting to cancel accounts, which is what you did. Multiply that by hundreds or thousands of accounts with only a small fraction forgetting to cancel their subscription, and you can see the profit can mount up for them.
I work for a major credit card processor, First National Merchant Solutions, but I don't usually handle chargebacks. I'm still at work though, so I asked a coworker who does.
You're probably curious about chargeback rights. This is where you talk to your bank, explain why you believe that charge wasn't fair or valid, and ask them to get your money back. I'm going to describe these chargeback rights.
"Merchant" means a business who is charging your card. "Cardholder" is you. "Issuer" is the bank that issued your card.
The merchant must have given you prior notice that they were going to bill you. I'm not familiar with the terms & conditions you agreed to, but they may have given you this notification when you signed up.
If you called and cancelled the service within a reasonable amount number of days before you were billed, and they still charged you, AND you haven't received any material goods or services from them, you can charge the sale back.
Also if you never received notification that they were going to charge your account again, you can charge the sale back.
You probably can't charge the sale back claiming that they never provided the goods or services you requested. They will probably claim that your account has been capable of logging in and accessing the service, so they will argue that meets their fulfillment obligations.
I'll refer you to my company's "Chargeback Case Studies" section of its web site. http://www.foomp.com -- click on "REFERENCE DESK" at the top center, then click "Fraud & Loss" at the fourth link down in the body of the page. This section of the site describes the common chargeback reasons, and gives a case study for each chargeback type. This list doesn't include all of the rare chargeback types out there, but it's most of the common ones.
Keep in mind you can't argue a chargeback case like a lawyer. You can't say you called him to cancel...and you already returned the merchandise...and you never received the merchandise...and you've never heard of this merchant before now. You must pick one reason and go with it. If you pick a weak chargeback reason and the chargeback is reversed, you may not get another chance to file another chargeback with a different reason. (You will probably be allowed to rebut the merchant's allegations, making this a 'second chargeback'.)
If you feel you're entitled to a chargeback (because you read about a chargeback case study very similar to your situation) but your bank insists you cannot charge the sale back, the bank may be in violation of Visa/Mastercard regulations. If you feel they are, complain to Visa or Mastercard. You could find out the bank was right all along -- or the bank could find out you were right. If the bank was in error, they could be fined by Visa/Mastercard or (in VERY extreme cases) have their rights to issue those cards revoked.
The opinions expressed above are mine, and not necessarily those of my employer. We are an "acquirer" -- we provide services to merchants, so we're used to helping businesses who are on the defending side of chargeback disputes. Acquirers don't usually go around giving customers advice anyway.
--Michael Spencer
That's a load of horse sh*t.
It's like how the gyms that require you to notify them in writing by snail mail to cancel your account. There's a reason why people have been taking them to court and winning, it's underhanded.
Unfortunately, it's not so easy to do something about. If you used a credit card (as opposed to a debit card), it should be relatively easy to get the charge cancelled, like mentioned in an earlier post. If not, stop by at your local court house and pick up a small claims form. Specify the amount as $70 (Xbox fee) + ~$100 (your time and effort coming to court), and most likely they'll refund it before the court date comes, or they won't even show up, which means you win by default. (It's not worth their money to fight it.)
Use the court system to your advantage, for once, and put them in the same positiion that they put small companies, i.e. the settlement is worth less than their legal fees... Total cost to you? Somewhere between $2 and $15
Any frustration and/or anger he is feeling now should be directed at himself for failing to fully understand his responsibilities when he entered into a business contract with Microsoft.
There is need to involve the court system in this. It would be just another useless lawsuit tying up an already overstressed and abused court system.
Gettng a chargeback from the CC company for this would be at best underhanded and at worst immoral or fraudulent. He was not charged for something he didn't approve. He was charged for something he forgot about. Chargebacks are not a refund for stupidity. The more people abuse chargebacks the less chance the CC companies will grant them to people with valid complaints. Besides, like another poster said, the second he calls the CC company he will be asked, "Was this for a subscription service you agreed to?" The CC companies are already sick to death of people buying a month's pr0n subscription online and then calling 30 days later trying to get their money back for those "obviously fraudulent" charges that appeared on their bills.
The only respectable thing for the original poster to do is to admit to himself he forgot to cancel the account, pay the $50 and learn a lesson from this.