Kazaa Offices Raided

rj writes "ZDNet Australia is reporting the Music Industry Piracy Investigations (MIPI) this morning raided the offices of Kazaa owners, Sharman Networks, along with P2P company Brilliant Digital Entertainment, and the homes of key executives. Background on prosecution of copyright music in Australia over P2P is also available."

Comments

Raided them for what?

[andih8u]

Did they think they had a slew of mp3s sitting around on cds in their homes? I know that raiding the offices and homes of execs is fairly common in accounting scandals and the like, but this seems a bit overkill.

Re:Raided them for what?

[Theresa1]

I suspect that they didn't care what they found. The reason for the raid was probably intimidation.

Re:Huh.

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Well, who's going to stop Billionares with cops?

Uh

[mkro]

MIPI obtained an Anton Pilar order - which allows a copyright holder to enter a premises to search for and seize material that breaches copyright without alerting the target through court proceedings

This "copyright is holier than God Himself" crap is corrupting the law. I don't like bad analogies, but everyone remembers the example with the father of raped girl being the judge in the trial. That an interest group is doing the police's work is unacceptable. (Yes, I know the BSA is operating in a similar way, but that is no excuse.)

Re:Uh

[Crypto Gnome]

I think it's imnportant to note that:

The BSA has ZERO (extenuating/special) legal force behind them.

And YES I am specifically talking about in the US.

They basically are a business offering to audit you. They fact that they're making their offers with intentionally intimidating letters written in the best of legalspeak is neither here nor there.

They have ZERO legal rights for search-and-seizure or any such like (until, of course, they can prove to a judge "probable cause" or other similar evidence just like anyone else who wants to request a search warrant).

These anti-music/movie-piracy moguls , on the other hand, have had several particularly nasty laws passed which give them FULL LEGAL SANCTION to act more like a police force than any other business in the pursuit of evidence and/or prosecution.

So basically no, the BSA is *not* operating in a similar way. The BSA just TALK BIG and hope to scare you. The *AAs of the US are businesses with powers significantly similar to The Police Force.

Not likely

[radicalskeptic]

MIPI general manager Michael Speck told ZDNet Australia the order was specifically targeted at the operators of the Kazaa network. "This is not about individuals, this is about the big fish," said Speck. "This is a signal that Internet music piracy is finished in Australia."

Yes, stopping Kazaa will end music piracy in Australia. Because nobody has ever heard of

• Gnutella
• OpenFT
• IRC

None of which look like they're going away.

Raided?!

[truesaer]

I thought only the cops could performs raids! Thank god this is in australia....if Fritz Hollings has his way we will probably have special music industy SWAT teams roaming the country soon.

I doubt that MIPI finds anything..

[Kalroth]

Sherman Networks would be bloody stupid to have anything illegal (music/software/etc) on any of their computers and I really doubt they had anything.

This just seems like the MIPI along with the rest of the record industry is trying to harass Sherman Networks into going away. Personally I don't like/use KaZaa or any other P2P utility, but I think it's a necessary evil.

Oh well, if they should manage to close down KaZaa, there's plenty of underground alternatives for the (ab)users. Seems like wasted resources from a desperate industry.

fly off the handle much?

[andih8u]

The argument that this even remotely has anything to do with the patriot act is stupid. It certainly has no provisions for raiding people's homes on behalf of the record industry. The people you should be directing your anger towards is more than likely the RIAA, who's undoubtedly the puppet master for this MIPI thing.

Re:fly off the handle much?

[Urkki]

Which would you choose if you had to choose between
- a free society with terrorists occasionally being able to carry out their strike and people occasionally breaking law (eg music piracy)
and
- a police state where people have no privacy and can be easily imprisoned/executed/deported/"made to disappear"
?

Note: this is just a general question in the context, specifically *not* referring to any particular legislation (such as Patriot Act) or country (such as US or China).

Re:fly off the handle much?

[orthogonal]

The argument that [Anton Pillar searches, where the target of the search is not informed of prior to the search] even remotely has anything to do with the patriot act is stupid. It certainly has no provisions for raiding people's homes on behalf of the record industry.

According to Freedom Fight Canada, an "Anton Pillar order is an order allowing for an applicant (without notice to a respondent) to enter the respondent's premises and inspect or seize documents or other items."

Under the Patriot Act, the government is allowed (with a secret warrant) to conduct secret "sneak and peek" searches, without ever informing the target of the search.

The difference is that with Anton Pillar, a private entity can request the search -- so far under U.S. law, only the government can. Of course, if you can find a friendly prosecutor and convince him that there's a possibility a crime has been committed, he'll do your search for you. Indeed, some will argue that that makes U.S. law more favorable to corporations, large corporations generally having more sway with law enforcement than private citizens.

The other difference between Anton Pillar and the Patriot Act is that the legislative intent of the Patriot Act was that its provisions should apply only to suspected acts of terrorism. However, US Attorney General John Ashcroft has aggressively pushed to ignore the legislative intent behind the Patriot Act, and use its provisions for to investigate non-terrorist related activity.

Summary:

• both the US and Australia allow "sneak and peek" searches in which the target of the search is not informed of he search;
• In Australia, a private citizen can apply for such an order; in the US, only police and prosecutors can, making it effectively unavailable to private citizens, but available to corporations;
• Legislation in the US limits such searches to investigations of terrorism, but John Ashcroft is working mightily to extend its use to non-terrorism related activities.

Conclusion: via the mechanism of the Patriot Act, "sneak and peek" searches could be conducted on behalf of the recording industry if it alleges that copyright "piracy" is linked to terrorist fundraising, or if John Ashcroft succeeds in using Patriot Act mechanisms for commonplace investigations.

So I think comparisons to the Patriot Act are warranted (no pun intended).

Re:erm, ok.

[Jugalator]

If this kind of thing is valid, I don't see where so many .au slashdotters get off saying that the US is a police state. What bollix and hypocricy.

Where's the hypocrisy in that??

If your own country act like this, can't you comment about other countries where police can do the same?

Re:Legal?

[Kirth]

Well, if 99% of alleys were filled with drug pushers, and 99% of the people who used the alleys were drug pushers, then yes, i'd be supporting shutting down alleys.

Well, I wouldn't approve, simply because it was a bad idea to outlaw drugs in the first place. Oulawing drugs created a whole new slew of secondary crimes and enough incentives for organized crime to move in.
--

denial

[Doc Ruby]

If you took off your tinfoil hat, you'd notice that government raids of people's homes, on the pretext that their company might have been abused by other people to ignore copyrights, is government by fear and threat of force: fascism. Why is the air so thick with Anonymous Cowards reeling at the charges of fascism?

Re:denial

[Bendebecker]

According to webster.com, Fascism is:
Fascism - a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

If you read Musollini's paper on the subject (you'll find a copy in just about any introductory book on philosphy) you would find the fascism is basically the elevation of the state above all else (which Musollini basically equated himself too, in fascist states the dictator usually became a symbhol of the state and eventaully displaces the position of the state itself.) So you see, government raids are only a tool of fascism and not its main characteristic. Before the american revolution, british soldiers became infamous for searching peoples houses without warrant but that did not make the british fascists, only tyrants. So the charge you should be leveling is that of tyranny by the government. It led our country to revolution once before and such a charge is far more likely to get our public officals attention were calling them nazis will only get you ignored.

Re:Legal?

[retards]

Well, if 99% of alleys were filled with drug pushers, and 99% of the people who used the alleys were drug pushers, then yes, i'd be supporting shutting down alleys.

Instead of making it useless for drug pushers to operate? Or making pushing legal? Seems to me it would be alot easier than outlawing alleys and forcing everybody that lives in the city to move to a country house.

The same applies to P2P. Wouldn't it make more sense to redraft copyright law instead of trying to force people to submit to idiotic markets and ban technology?

No? Well, tough shit, people are going to continue to live in cities and people are going to continue to steal content as long as it costs way too much.

The music and movie industry has had 50 golden years to put away some money for a rainy day. If they were stupid enough to think that movie theaters, radio stations and music discs were an eternal cash-cow while using their profits to build castles in the sand, well... give them a Darwin Award.

Don't make the rest of the population pay for bad economics and planning.

More than 1%? You bet!

[Undefined Parameter]

Yes, yes, a substantial portion of Kazaa and other file-sharing programs/networks are in use illegally.

However, there is also a substantial portion which is used for, among other things, advertisements, legal restores (example: a long time ago, I used a file sharing network to backup an mp3 which I legally owned... the original had been corrupted during a backup to a bad CD; I lost a lot of data, but most of it didn't turn out to be important, luckily), and semi-legal file transfers (where the host might be in, say, Japan where the file is illegal, but the downloader is in the US where there is no copyright and is therefore legal).

With all due respect, sir, I think you're focusing on the negative side of file sharing.

~UP

Re:Legal?

[Alan Cox]

If 99% of the use of alleys was drug dealing I'd expect the cops to be stamping it out so that the other 1% can enjoy their alleys legitimately not be raiding the offices of the town councils who own them.

The motor car is used in huge numbers of crime getaways yet nobody sued Ford or suggests Ford fits cars with cameras that look for money bags and refuse to start the engine otherwise.

Similarly the music industry should be looking for people who are actually breaking the law not harassing those providing tools with legitimate other uses.

CANADA SUBSIDIZES IT'S ARTISTS...

[superangrybrit]

and we are already paying a percentage on storage media to artists even though some of us don't even download MP3s!!!

We already payed for that music already through our taxes and hidden fees.

Where does it end?

It's time we cut the free money flow to these thieves.

Re:Legal?

[Accipiter]

As far as I understand a substantial chunk of p2p network is used for porn sharing. So I dont think its anything even closer to 90%.

Ah, so all porn is completely public domain, and not at all copyrighted?

You can't seriously believe that.

Re:Legal?

[mr_z_beeblebrox]

Sure, there are some legitimate uses for file sharing, like swapping public domain files. But ask almost any college student what kazaa is, and they'll explain that it is for sharing music...

Music can be legitamately shared. That more than anything is what the MIPI and RIIA and other goons are trying quietly to suppress. The "one percent" as you call it of legitimate use. People like Brian Eno and Peter Gabriel who are releasing (and helping other artists to release) music on their own terms, thus shutting out the recording industry. If this were to continue, in five years that could be 20-25%. So, if the RIIA and others shout PIRATE loud enough in the right ears, no one will ever notice those people and before long they will be legislated (coerced) into either A. Recording music with the industry or B. Not recording music. These people are thugs and are using heavy handed monopolistic practices as well as sly legal trickery to perpetuate their empires. Sorry you can't see that.

Re:Legal?

[retards]

The only reason the entertainment industry is having trouble right now is because their product is easy to steal!

Actually, it's not even stealing according to the law. You do, however, have a (populistic) point.

However, the real reason behind all the fuss is the big money. If media-companies had not invested loads of money in these more and more obsolete delivery mechanisms, there would not be a problem. The question isn't if media publsihers going to get paid per se, but rather if the current media publishers are going to get paid according to outdated business practices.

All in all: if you don't have a product that people want to buy, either your product sucks or it's too expensive. Tough titty.

Re:Legal?

[top_down]

What bad economics and planning would that be? Creating a product and then selling it?

No it would be relying on an inefficient distribution monopoly for profits.

The only reason the entertainment industry is having trouble right now is because their product is easy to steal!

Wrong again. The reason they are in trouble is that they are producing a product, the distribution of music, that is obsolete (well soon anyway) thanks to new technology.

And don't be so unwise as to call illegal copying "stealing" as you might then easily miss the fact that illegal copying is hugely productive, which in turn means that you will probably miss a sane solution to the whole issue.

Re:Legal?

[the_mad_poster]

The only reason the entertainment industry is having trouble right now is because their product is easy to steal! If it wasn't, they would be in the green right now.

Got facts? Because I have the perennial "music sales went up while Napster was around and dropped off when it died". "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc", but it's more "evidence" than you posted.

On top of that, wouldn't Occam's Razor suggest that the simplest explanation to this problem is that people don't want to buy the music? Why would the remedy to that automatically be assumed to be anything other than the product itself for this particular industry, when common sense and prior knowledge tells us that the most common reason for people not purchasing a product is an inability to percieve a value in that purchase? Or, to put it more bluntly: the most likely reason people aren't buying this or any other product is that they don't think it's worth it.

Now, if you have some evidence that suggests something other than the common wisdom, I'm all ears. I'm not too proud to learn something new.

Re:Huh.

[godzilla808]

>Well, who's going to stop Billionares with cops?

How about the people who make the billionares? If people would only stop buying music!

Try this in the US. 'specially in the south...

[phoenix321]

and get shot the instant you set your first foot on the premises. No vigilant citizen should be expected to allow this madness. If the government does not protect you and your property from private intervention, heck, if it even endorses private break-in as similar to law enforcement with a warrant and due process unter public scrutiny, then it is the right and the duty of all law abiding citizens to withstand and prevent these actions and even if it sounds provocative: by all means necessary.

The United States of America have a long tradition of people's rights, human rights, democracy and personal freedom. If someone is undermining the very foundations of this country, if they try to finally corrupt the entire state starting with the legislative process through bought senators, bypassing the judicial branch through their own actions and even replacing the executive branch with their own mobsters, it is time for every citizen to react. Form militias, arm yourselves. This is exactly what the second amendmendment was created for: empowering the citizen to protect himself from unwarranted searches, abuse of governemntal powers and the failure of the offical system. Don't tolerate private companies violating private property! Don't tolerate companies who subvert the legal process! Don't tolerate the corruption of the land of the free!

And please remember the following sentences: "I don't agree with what you said, but I'd fight to my death for your right to say it!".

I don't endorse the breach of copyright or anything like that. Even if Sharman Networks did violate this law or another, I will not hesitate to fight with them or anyone else who is denied his constitutional rights and due process over a non-violent, non-capital and non-life threatening crime.

(Even if it sounds provocative or flamebait, it is not meant as such. I truly believe in the law and the constitution as the only rightful way to run a country. Posting logged-in to emphase this, even if the TIA and the rest of the three-letter agency scum will have a field day with their eternal databases. And yes, I reinstate: this comment is about about militant actions against the enemies of the constitution and yes I do make a call to arms against attempts to corrupt the last ones of our private rights.)

By the people - for the people. Nothing else!