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Building A Better Package Manager
SilentBob4 writes "Adam Doxtater of Mad Penguin has published a preliminary layout for his proposed cross-distribution package manager capable of adding/removing software from any locale. He is suggesting the interface will basically allow for installation of several major package formats including RPM, DEB, TGZ, as well as source code with the ability to pass build time options. All of this will come at the price of standards of course, including naming, documentation, and package structuring. If this idea were to catch on, it would signify a major leap in desktop Linux usability. This might be a project that UserLinux might benefit from. Read the full column here (complete with GUI mockups)."
This topic comes up how often? Like twice a year?
And yet nothing ever changes.
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People get so hung up on the package format. It really isn't about the package format, it's about the people and organization behind the packages and whether they produce a consistent distribution. A "better" package format or a better installer isn't going to help you when a piece of software expects libraries to be there that just aren't available, or when an install script assumes functionality you don't have.
APT already handles debs and rpms. tgzs should not be a far stretch. The problem is establishing standards and getting everyone to follow them. For example, all debs in the Debian archive follow the Debian packaging standard, else they would not be accepted into the archive.
Naturally, third parties are free to create their own non-conformant debs. This is just the same as someone creating an rpm for RH9, but it not conforming to the conventions used by Red Hat.
I assert that the tools already exist. I.e., we don't need a new one. The emphasis needs to be on getting people to follow the standards, and possibly creaitng a cross-dsitro standard fo everyone to follow.
All smoke and no fire... Don't talk about it just build it. Personally I think someone should sit down and hack together a install package builder program based on something like gdialog and python that outputs a executable compressed image into a single bin file.
A good installer is not hard to accomplish if the desire for it really exists. It is however one of the most overlooked things as open source programs are involved.
Don't make me go hunting down 20 dependency packages but offer to install them for me. A simple script based on wget can do that...
Got Code?
Maybe Apple can do this because they have a standardized directory structure, but what can be easier than dragging an app package to the Applications folder? Poof, it's installed. Don't like it? Delete it. If it's more complex, there's an installer program. Playing with dependencies and makefiles is the reason I gave up on Linux.
"I am not a number! I am a free man!"-- The Prisoner
The theory is fine. The problem is that package managers are, in many ways, incompatible. Debian packages, for instance, track dependencies based on the names of other Debian packages (libfoobaz-dev requires libfoobaz). I've seen package management systems that have dependencies based on files (libfoobaz-dev requires /usr/lib/libfoobaz.so). The former system won't recognize dependencies from packages installed in the latter format. Worse, the packages don't overlap. One distribution will have libgnome, whereas another will have 50 different packages, one for each of the Gnome libraries. The problem of dependencies there breaks almost completely.
.rpm packages on a .deb system, or vica-versa, without breaking something. It is possible to install packages of one sort on the other system, but eventually, things will break. Each package management system relies on some set of information about packages to work, and each system has a different set of information it provides and needs.
.deb, .rpm, .tgz, etc. packages, and give easy-to-read information about what systems it'll work on. I've heard of tools similar to this, but I haven't seen them used. Adding something like this to the standard autoconf/automake/... process would certainly be nice.
There's also a matter of versions and security updates. On Debian, I run 'apt-get update; apt-get upgrade' and have a new version. Since the packages are all maintained by the Debian project (and a few smaller projects that target Debian), this works. Versions aren't linear -- Debian back-ports security fixes. The package manager has no way of knowing whether kernel-2.4.24 is newer than kernel-2.4.19-with-patches.
Basically, there is no clean way to install
There is room for improvement in package management -- a really good GUI for finding and installing packages would be nice. I wouldn't mind having more information about the packages I'm about to install -- links to project web pages, ability to browse installed files (the packages.debian.org/freshmeat.net/etc. databases either installed locally or quickly accessable from the system), the ability to view screenshots of GUI programs, etc. There's a lot of metainformation that could be added, and better search functionality that could be implemented.
At the same time, on the package build side, it'd be pretty simple to have a system where you make a configuration file of information about the package, and it builds
The last solution is to have the groups work together to make sure all packages have the same set of metainformation (more than is needed for any given package system), so that cross-platform package installs become possible. In practice, I don't see this scaling across versions, as package management systems evolve.
One more thing to bear in mind is the perspective of the author of the article -- he says he runs Slackware, and builds most packages from source (something I've stopped doing maybe 3-5 years ago). Slackware's package management tools are very basic, manual, and crude. That gives a very different attitude towards package management than someone running a distribution like Red Hat, which has a much heavier-weight, more technologically-advanced, but somewhat fragile, somewhat inflexible package management system, or a user of Debian, which has a state-of-the-art ubermaintainable, uberupgradeable package management system, but that primarily relies on grabbing packages from one (or a small number) of sources. I apologize about the stereotypes in this paragraph -- they're not entirely true, but the package management systems differ a lot (more than most people realize, if you've ever tried to build the packages), and I'm just trying to make people aware that users of each of them will have a very different world view, and it's important to keep that in mind when reading these articles.
When we come up with an elegant solution that is cross-distro...
.deb, .rpm, and others. The problem is that most geeks (at least the ones in charge) are stubborn idiots. If they said that debian packages are better than rpms five years ago because the only distro they ever used was debian, there's no way in hell that they will ever admit that another package management system could do the job, and agree to standardize.
There are already lots of them.
There's no technical reason why we can't get some people together to iron out the last differences and either create a standard package manager, or create well-defined interfaces that allow any front end to access any kind of package. However, if you did that, nobody would use it anyway.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
Why hasn't anyone developed a system that, from the End-user perspective, works similarly to MSI installations (which work very well). Point, click, next next next. In principal, DEBS/RPMs work similarly to MSIs, but the installation isn't as obvious a procedure to end-users.
And for that matter, why not make the installer intelligent about the distro? Use a single package/installer, but that includes all sorts of scripting information about installation in variosu circumstances. The installer checks to see if it's on RH9, and if so it puts files where RH9 expects them, editing any configurations and making RPM database entries as necessary. If it's on Debian, it takes the appropriate measures there. And so forth.
Why do we see such absurd dependencies that don't seem to happen in the windows and mac worlds? Install a new version of a KDE app, and you need the latest minor revision to the core KDE libs, which in turn requires a minor upgrade to the font server, etc. In the windows world, occasionally you need to update something big like DirectX to install a latest-and-greatest app, but even then the dependencies are often packaged with the app itself. Why isn't this practice more common in Linux/Unix (not counting Mac OS X)? I undestand that many of these apps are under CONSTANT quick-release development and are often tied to bleeding-edge versions of their libs, but why aren't major releases at least more dependency-friendly? Installing an app can be a real pain in the ass even with something like apt, if you don't have the dependencies in the repositories you've defined. And adding new respositories isn't exacly grandma-friendly.
Standards are not a price, they are an investment. I use standard XHTML, CSS, and SVG in my web design because I care about the future of the web. Besides, if a standard is well-designed (like W3C recommendations tend to be), it actually makes development and maintenance easier. Anyone who has migrated from HTML 3 (or some nonstandard IE/Netscape HackML) to HTML 4 or XHTML with CSS knows what a pleasure it is to work with modern hypertext (and probably also has an abiding and bitter hatred for IE). The same could be true of package installation in Linux if the standard is well-designed.
No easy dependency tracking, no easy uninstall, no easy upgrade, no audit trail. On a server you don't usually want a compiler installed as it can be a security risk. It's really nice having a database of all the software installed, what versions of what other software it depends on, and reliable way to remove it without keeping the build tree around assuming the build system used has an uninstall method. The only way I would feel confident about not accumulating cruft due to upgrading big packages from source (gnome, kde, X) is if they are installed 100% into a single folder (like /opt/kde/3.2/(bin|lib|conf|man|...). Then I can safely uninstall by deleting that top version folder. Even then, I don't want to take the time downloading and compiling the source, I don't find it to be very recreational. I'd rather run `apt-get install kde` or `apt-get upgrade kde` or `apt-get remove kde`. With that remove command, it also removes packages kde depended on but nothing else does. You don't get that with source installations, you have to keep track of it yourself.
In the long run, unless you are meticulous about tracking which packages need which other packages, and where they were all installed, you are insuring you will have to rebuild your system from scratch at one point. Package managers like APT and Yum, and even up2date allow you to avoid this.
So this is a similar effort to Autopackage except that it plans on using the native package formats?
Except that this guy has just stated the idea and made a couple of mock-up screenshots, whereas the autopackage guys are coming up with a complete, sensible solution and are leaving the interface until the end.
I'm not going to call you a troll. But I am going to assume you dislike the RPM format due to the dependency-hell problems of the past, if that's not why you dislike it, then feel free to ignore the rest of my post, except the PS. The problem is that many distro maintainers selected the RPM format (Red Hat, Mandrake, Suse, Ark, even the LSB chose RPM as the standard format), and then packaged software with conflicting package names and file system layouts. So you go looking for an RPM for Red Hat, and find one from Suse, and it says it needs xfree86 3.0.3, even though you have XFree86 3.0.3 installed. Or perhaps it needs some particular .so to be in /usr/lib but the Red Hat package owning that file put it in /usr/lib/ssl.
These aren't flaws in the RPM format, these are the problems this project aims to fix. You would see the same problem with dpkg if there were as many popular distributions which used dpkg but didn't base themselves off of debian's repositories.
The other complaint commonly made is that apt is better. Apt needs a tool like rpm or dpkg behind to actually be useful. Apt is purely that part of the system that locates dependencies, like the part of portage that knows to build and install X before building and installing GNOME. It doesn't actually install the package or maintain the database of installed software. Apt also runs very nicely on RedHat. Connectiva and Ark use it as the default system. Mandrake and Suse implement their own dependency tracking system.
PS - In addition to Red Hat and Mandrake, I've also tried FreeBSD (years ago, didn't support all the hardware needed to install), Debian, Suse, Ark, and Slackware.