Linux in Munich Followup

If there is one placeq by homeobocks · 2004-02-15 09:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

If there is one place that will be the turning point for OSS and Linux, it will be Europe and Asia. Wait: I guess that isn't one place! :)

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The problems by lakeland · 2004-02-15 09:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

Interesting that all the problems are interoperability with proprietary software. There haven't been any problems with the people using linux.

Re:The problems by passthecrackpipe · 2004-02-15 10:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

Well, some of the problems are different "The migration plan is more complex than simply replacing Windows with Linux, according to an outline provided by the Munich information department. Studies on open-source security, desktop ergonomics and the software components' stability and compatibility with other applications will be included in the process." ... and that is costing more money then expected, and thus raises questions about financial viability. What pisses me off is that these kind of studies are hardly ever conducted when you do a Windows to Windows migration, although the issues, impacts and risks are just as high.

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Re:The problems by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-15 10:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

"Interesting that all the problems are interoperability with proprietary software. There haven't been any problems with the people using linux."

Even more interesting is how those many of those interoperability problems were designed into the proprietary software to prevent just such a migration, so that one day their architects could say "look at all the problems that other software is causing!"
Re:The problems by AstroDrabb · 2004-02-15 11:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

The difference is that Microsoft has already spent the money to test and perfect the migration path.
I almost soiled my pants reading that. There is noting "perfected" coming from MS. I work at a fortune 500 with 140,000+ employess. MS came in and told all the PHB's that they just HAD to upgrade our Exchange server to Exchange 2003 running on MS Windows 2003. What a nightmare. The server is constantly going down, and our corporate email is not dependable. These problems cannot be blamed on our IT staff since several of MS's people have been here a few WEEKS trying to get it running smoothly.
I predict a failed migration, millions of euros in lost money and productivity
Now do you really think IBM will let that happen? Of course not. With Novell in the picture for SuSE, they will be there too to make sure that it gets finished. There is no such thing as a large scale migration of anything without problems. Migrating with MS's own products to newer versions can be a nightmare. We have had tons of issues doing large upgrades in addition to the one I pointed out above.
Bullshit, Stacey. These issues should be resolved BEFORE the migration, especially if its a large scale problem.
Yeah, you sound like you have done a lot of large scale migrations. There are only so many senarios you can plan for in advance. After that you just need a little luck and good developers/admins working for you.
Oh well, must suck to be a worker for the City of Munic.
Why would it suck? I think it would be a great challenge and when they DO finish, it will be a great example that the city of Munich can use to their advantage. Maybe put some of their top guys out for consulting for a little while? IBM is the largest IT company in the world. There name is on this and they won't let it just get ran into the mud. Also, IBM has the most talented Global Services division you can find on the planet. There is still more then a year to go. In about 1 year, all the positive press will come out and MS will be scrambling to play it down and MS weeines will be making excuses.

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dont make a big story out of it... by tuggy · 2004-02-15 09:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

..i dont think there is the need to start making up big stories out of this. Of course this kind of migration takes a lot of time, specially for the training.

I really hope that everything proceeds as planned.. a project like this is important for the public opinion of Free Software and Linux...

migration by W32.Klez.A · 2004-02-15 09:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

I think part of the problem with migration is that in many instances many people who use linux and love did it because they were disenchanted with proprietary OSes for personal reasons, and these guys are trying to migrate for a multitude of reasons, including monetary ones. Add on to that the fact you're retraining thousands of people, and you've got one heck of a mess on your hands.

Nonetheless, hopefully they persevere.

Prove it.... by BWJones · 2004-02-15 09:48 · Score: 5, Insightful

Wired has a story that details some of the difficulties that Project LiMux seems to be experiencing in Munich. Including financial and technical issues.

What this experiment will have to do is prove that Linux can do it for less money and be more efficient than proprietary solutions such as Windows.

Studies on open-source security, desktop ergonomics and the software components' stability and compatibility with other applications will be included in the process.

For my money, I would have bet on OS X providing a better system from these perspectives.

IBM and Germany-based Linux distributor SuSE are expected to help offset the costs of the migration by supplying technical support and conducting some of the studies that the Munich city council has requested.

This will most likely be of huge importance in maintaining this transition, but more support may be needed in bringing custom applications from Windows to Linux.

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Re:Prove it.... by Malcontent · 2004-02-15 10:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

The primary reasons for switching to linux were long term. They wanted to avoid a forced upgrade cycle and vendor lock in. I think everybody involved in the project understands that they will have to pay some up-front money, time, and effort in order to realize long term benefits.

If you recall the winning linux bid actually cost more then the competing windows bid.

I do find it highly unusual that any large entity let alone a governmental one actually chose to spend more money immediately to gain long term benefits though. That kind of thinking is pretty rare these days. I wish them all the luck.

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You're gonna think this is flamebait by Michael+Crutcher · 2004-02-15 09:55 · Score: 5, Insightful

.. but maybe they should have just used windows.

But instead of paying $23.7 million for the Microsoft solution, Munich's city council opted to spend roughly $35.7 million to switch to open source, saying that the higher price would be offset by lower costs and more flexibility in licensing fees and software choices over the long run.

That's an initial difference of $12.5 million, or $892 per system. They say that they'll make it up in the long run, but they must really mean long term.

I love linux as much as the next guy, but the duty of this agency is to provide the cheapest solution to server their constinuents. This whole project smells to me like the council had a beef with Microsoft, and allowed that bias to lead to a poor business decision. Now they're trying to justify it so they don't have to admit that they made a mistake.

There are probably organizations that are ready for a wholesale ms to linux migration, but this doesn't look to be one. All of their staff have to be retrained, the price is more expensive, and a considerable custom windows application base seem to make this a bad idea. The linux community can only be hurt by a square peg linux solution being shoved into a circle microsoft hole.

Microsoft is loving this, and preparing marketing material right now that shows that replacing Microsoft with Linux doesn't make business sense. Business realities, not propoganda, should dictate migration to linux. Forcing the issue (as it appears they are doing) only hurts linux in the long run.

Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by hodet · 2004-02-15 10:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

I hope you don't get modded flamebait because it's a valid concern. However, it's way too early to say the project is in trouble. For crying out loud, it's just a Wired article pointing out the drop dead obvious. Migrations are tough, we just did a migration to W2K Advanced Server where I work(I know I know...what can I say...not my decision) and you wouldn't believe the hitches along the way. The lock-in I am seeing is downright scary when I step back and look at the big picture.
Give this project time and it will blossom, and that ~12Mil will be insignificant in comparison to the savings down the road.
Being a pioneer is not easy, and Munich will end up better off in the long run.
Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Minwee · 2004-02-15 10:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

Right. With that $892 per system, they could upgrade Office once, and maybe even chip in for the next version of Windows.
Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-15 10:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

That's an initial difference of $12.5 million

This does not matter if they have payed around $12.5 million to SuSE, because that stays within the German economy.

I love linux as much as the next guy, but the duty of this agency is to provide the cheapest solution to server their constinuents

For governments I disgree. The IBM/SuSE option helps SuSE, a German company. To me that is a smart choice.
Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Yokaze · 2004-02-15 10:12 · Score: 5, Insightful

Are you aware, that a decision had to be made because Microsoft decided to expire its old versions and licensing scheme? This required them to upgrade. The question now was whether they spend $23.7 million everytime Microsoft decides so, or they spend $35.7 million and are free to decide themselves when the next change come.

The change in Munich and in other communities did not happen now, because Linux became suddenly more mature, but because they were all were posed with the same problem.

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"Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"

The flow of Tax dollars into Microsoft's pockets by Rassendyll · 2004-02-15 09:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

Here in Canada, most government departments and agencys are either undertaking, or considering the migration from Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 95 to Windows 2000. I once added up the total cost of Windows NT 4 Workstation licences, NT 4 Server licenses, NT 4 CALs, and MS Office 2000 licenses for the government agency that I worked for (~20000 pcs served by ~500 NT 4 servers) and the figure wasn't pretty. A signifigant portion of the operating costs for many government offices goes to buying access to Microsoft's IP; I would like to see my tax dollars used in a more productive manner. Kudos to Munich and best wishes that their problems will be overcome shortly.

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An eye for an eye... leaves the whole world blind.

Re:Do what we can...how? by Malcontent · 2004-02-15 10:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

Volunteer to man an IRC channel.
Write some documentation.
Pretty up some already written documentation.
Answer questions on the newsgroups without griping or insulting people.
If you are German write the politicians praising them for their courage in choosing this solution and vote for them in the next election.
If you are not German then write to them anyway and see if it's legal for you to send them some money. Even five or ten dollars would be a highly effective symbolic gesture.

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War is necrophilia.

Re:If there is one place by Mark_in_Brazil · 2004-02-15 10:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

If there is one place that will be the turning point for OSS and Linux, it will be Europe and Asia. Wait: I guess that isn't one place! :)

Don't forget South America. Start with Brazil, where a majority of Latin America lives (i.e., the population of Brazil is larger than that of the rest of Latin America combined). Brazil's government sees OSS as a way to bridge the "digital divide," as a way to develop the Brazilian IT industry, as a way to free the Brazilian government from dependence on an American company that may more may not open special "back doors" for the US Government (Remember the NSA Key?), and as a less-expensive way of developing Brazil's IT infrastructure. I really believe it is much more than just talk to negotiate better license terms from Microsoft.

--Mark

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Re:Migrating to Linux by Von+Helmet · 2004-02-15 11:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

All the damn time I'm reading "Linux isn't ready for the desktop".

I'musing Linux on the desktop.

It works fine. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong? I mean, it's not meant to work, is it?

Linux is ready for the desktop, as shown by the countless people using it on the desktop. Hell, you're at Slashdot, look around you...

The real issue is that Linux isn't ready for mass consumption in the same way that Windows is, but that's largely because people have had Microsoft stuffed down their throats for... ooh... 20 years? Something like that. People have issues with Linux because they're so used to doing everything the Microsoft way. People are taught that computers run Windows, and for 90% of people there is no other OS. Most people wouldn't know what an OS even is! It's inconveivable for computers to run any other way.

There are distro's combatting this though. I mean, first up there's obvious candidate's like Lindows; but things like Redhat (Fedora, whatever) and Mandrake are getting extremely user friendly. For the average end user a decent RedHat install will do most things - e-mail, internet, Office type stuff. It's only the hardcore minority among us that need more complex stuff and thus spend sleepless nights tweaking the kernel, trying to get Wine to run properly, trawling the net for those obscure drivers... But most people never even think about that type of stuff

Long story short - Linux is ready for the desktop, but people just need a bit of re-education to get their head round it, same as a lot of people need education to use Windows in the first place. A lot of end users need training to use Windows in the first place, and then need training with each new version of Windows, so training in Linux shouldn't be too much harder.

Here endeth the lesson.

Tough--from experience by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-15 11:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

Linux is a pretty tough change. Gradual migration is necessary for continuty of operation, so you must work with interoperability.

I have set up in the past a Linux intranet servce in a Windows IT environment, precisely because I thought that it would be "better" in the long run to work with Tomcat/Apache/Linux than WebLogic/WebSphere/Windows.

The basic set-up was very easy, as always. But soon we got into things related to security & authorizations, for which we needed to interface with Active Directory... I'm glad we had some time to do this right. "Active Directory access from Java over LDAP with Kerberos authentication to a Win2K domain controller" is very sparsely and partially documented, and then what you can find on the net relates to earlier versions of software, other distros... A lot of testing and trying with some very good people on the task, and finally we got it off the ground. It's not the kiddie-script grade stuff or burn-a-distro-and-enjoy story we like to hear.

This was in a top-tier R&D lab, with research-grade time on our hands. Basically our core business. Now I'm not sure the municipal office of Munich can do these kinds of things themselves... And if they hire consultants to do it for them, you can be pretty sure they'll take advantage of their unawareness.

In that particular case, we got for a short period of time a MS Consulting dude to help us. The poor guy knew less about MS' own products than us! Now imagine the same guy "advising" the Munich city office on how to better interoperate with Microsoft's products.

Here's the timeline
1- City of Munich goes Linux
2- City of Munich realizes during the migration it will need to interoperate with Windows
3- City of Munich to MS: one more thing, guys... before we ditch you, how do we interoperate with your products exactly? No, not for us (we don't do, we make others do), but we need to tell our IT subcontractors.
4- IT subcontractors blame bad interop on MS, who blames it back on these sloppy-Linux-hackers--and meanwhile, computers kaputt
5- ???
6- One good "TCO" sell point for MS?

So, whats new by unoengborg · 2004-02-15 12:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

Over 75% of all IT projects fail totally, is late or over budget. Most of them are not Linux projects.

So, Microsoft is in no position to gloat over any Linux setbacks in Munich.

This is a problem that probably has more to do with leadership, management methods than with any specific technology like Linux or Windows.

Even if the up front cost for switching to Linux turns out to be higher than expected, it will probably be cheaper in the long run. Using Linux they will be in much better control of their future upgrade costs.

Not to mention that, money spent on Linux stays in the local economy instead of feeding a foreign company.

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