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Moving from Linux to Windows Desktop?

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the mitigating-the-pain dept.

slyall asks: "I work in the Network/System Admin team for an ISP. Our firm was recently bought by another company that has mandated that my team's desktops be switched over from Linux to Windows XP in the next few weeks. Some of us are have used Linux almost exclusively and going to Windows is a big change. Can people suggest any tips, books or websites to help Linux people shoved into the Windows world (especially those running lots of Linux and Cisco boxes)? We've all got years of experience on Linux but running Windows day to day is a big challenge. We don't yet know if the company will provide us with tools such as Cygwin or Windows Services for UNIX but we won't be allowed to install random programs and may not have admin access. We're not happy with the change but we're unable to stop it. What we are hoping to do is reduce the performance hit that the changeover is going to cause." This is probably one of those situations where a LiveCD-based distribution, for use in an emergency, might help.

22 of 167 comments (clear)

  1. Quit. by JamesP · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, really. If they're obligating you to change it's because they're morons and don't deserve having you as an employee...

    --
    how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    1. Re:Quit. by sporty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Everything isn't black or white like that. He's asking advice for making the transition, so you have to assume either he can't quit or he wont' quit. Why he can't, may be family finances or contract. He may not want to due to loyalty to the company, and this is just a snag in the relationship.

      --

      -
      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    2. Re:Quit. by Otter · · Score: 4, Insightful
      And while you're looking for a new job, along with desau and James, be sure to complain here incessantly about how those damn Indians are stealing all our jobs.

      Honestly, where are you guys posting from, 1998? I'm starting a new job next week and less than thrilled about having to give up my MacOS desktop and use Windows -- but I'll be showing up to work nonetheless.

      --
      What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
    3. Re:Quit. by Otter · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I'm not saying this isn't stupid. (It probably is, although obviously I don't know the details.)

      Nonetheless, declaring that this is something worth quitting your job over strikes me as incompatible with unending crying about the job market. I remember a few years ago when everyone here thought you should quit if your boss insisted on documents in .doc format instead of .rtf. I remember it every time I now read about the horrors of outsourcing.

      --
      What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
    4. Re:Quit. by MadAhab · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The fact that the takeover dudes are mandating changes without thinking about the needs of their workers, that they are removing their ability to install software, is a damn good sign they are being take over by clueless fucks. Sure, the company was worth buying, but obviously they don't know what they're doing if they use linux. Yeah, right.

      Don't quit until you find a new job, but look now. This company is going to die a slow death if this is how they manage things.

      --
      Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
    5. Re:Quit. by innosent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For large companies, the first statement is absolutely true. Sarbanes-Oxley comes to mind. If the company is publicly traded, document retention policies need to be strictly enforced, and allowing even administrative personnel to modify or delete files becomes a huge liability. The law sucks, but denying you administrative access to your machine could save you $20 million and/or 20 years in prison. Deal with it.

      If you are trying to find a way to maintain productivity levels of experienced Unix staff on Windows, forget it, it is impossible. Anyone that types over 10wpm will be able to do more with a Unix system, since experienced Unix people tend to prefer CLI to GUI, and you can't click that fast. As for books to read, the UI isn't your problem, it's the difference in opinion on Administration. You would really have to know what systems are in place (Active Directory being a major one), how administrative tasks are divided, and what tasks will need to be done by your people on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. You most likely don't need to know everything, and what you do largely depends on what the company expects from you. Unix is not just an operating system, it's a business model, and if the new company doesn't fit that model, you probably aren't in a position to change that. In other words, you probably don't need a book/training on Windows, you need a book/training on your new employer, which hopefully will be provided to you when your department is absorbed. There is really no point in studying something that you don't know you will use.

      --
      --That's the point of being root, you can do anything you want, even if it's stupid.
    6. Re:Quit. by BillyBlaze · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Nonetheless, declaring that this is something worth quitting your job over strikes me as incompatible with unending crying about the job market.

      There's more than one person here, so pointing out each instance where their opinions differ isn't really necessary.

    7. Re:Quit. by jtheory · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Quitting is always an option. It probably won't net you the same outcome, but I would never stay at such a blinded company.

      It probably won't net you the same *income*, either.

      Personally, I would advice against toughing it out for now (but start looking for another job in the meantime). For now, start making lists. Try to build up some valid numbers on what it will cost you and your group to switch over to locked-down Windows computers. Tally up the software that you use constantly (including your shell!) that either has no analog or only a poor substitute in the new environment. Discuss your development processes (now's the time to document, if you haven't), and how they will suffer, and what you will be losing.

      Once you've built your case, present it, give your strong recommendation, and wait a while. Don't bitch about the conversion, etc. (or they'll think you're perfectly capable of switching, but you're a whiner), just make sure they know you're concerned about the costs for sensible reasons.

      Chances are, they want you to use their standardized XP image because they want to manage everyone's anti-virus software centrally, ease trouble-shooting work for their sys admins, etc.. Maybe you need to firewall off your network segment to keep them happy, and sign a paper guaranteeing that you won't need their help to support your machines. :)

      You might gain some sort of an exemption for your group from the corporate standards... though often sense does NOT prevail, and you'll have to bail eventually.

      Good luck. [Apologies if this post is confused... I should be sleeping]

      --
      There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
  2. hahaha! by yorgasor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You're the Net/Sys Admins and you won't even have admin access to your own boxes?! Come on, I know the job market is bad, but please, have some dignity.

    --
    Looking for a computer support specialist for your small business? Check out
  3. Try asking some real questions by orthogonal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I work in the Network/System Admin team for an ISP. Our firm was recently bought by another company that has mandated that my team's desktops be switched over from Linux to Windows XP in the next few weeks.... We don't yet know if the company will provide us with tools such as Cygwin or Windows Services for UNIX but we won't be allowed to install random programs and may not have admin access.

    Try installing this program: "Boss, I'm a professional. So is everybody else on the team. We've all been hired to do a job, a job that requires professional judgement and professional tools. (God know you tell us we're professionals using our judgment when it justifies denying us overtime.) Nevertheless, you're paying us good money to get a job done.

    "But now you've decide after shelling out for our experience and our judgment, you're going to ignore it, and actually deny us the tools we tell you we require to perform our work at the level of quality you've come to expect.

    "We know our jobs. We know the tools we need. We know how to procure and maintain our tools, so there's limit hidden costs here. So why the political decision to hamstring us?

    "Boss, this is really confusing: is the company's goal to get the job done, or is it to produce memos detailing the how much micro-management it's possible to cram down people's throats before they become completely dispirited, unmotivated drones useless to themselves and their company?

    "Or is that the point: to get us to quit so the company doesn't have to cop to down-sizing us?"

    --
    Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
  4. Leave by Kris_J · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Arbitrary changes like this point to serious management problems or directors with questionable motives. If you can't stop the change, start looking for work somewhere that appreciates the skills that you have.

  5. Better yet....Quit, then Compete by ChopsMIDI · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Get a bunch of your coworkers (if there are enoiugh of you) to quit the company and start one together, competing directly with your previous employer.

    Prove that OSS is better ecomonically for your clients, as well as put those ill-informed bastards that forced Windows out of business. It should be a pretty big hit to your previous employer if a good chunk of you leave.

    Maybe that's just wishful thinking, but hey, it could happen.

    --

    How could I say to men: "Speak louder, shout! For I am deaf!"? -Ludwig van Beethoven
  6. Why seek to reduce the performance hit? by Crutcher · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You use linux because it works better for you, right? Why do you want to sheild management from this reality? Let them see your frustration, and keep making the case "this used to work, why is this so hard?".

    Remember, managment doesn't like windows, they like money.

    Why people are so willing to take the hit for other people, I'll never understand.

    --

    -- Crutcher --
    #include <disclaimer.h>
    1. Re:Why seek to reduce the performance hit? by einTier · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Indeed, you need to learn, and learn fast. Believe me, they are just waiting to replace you, like they replaced all the UNIX machines.

      I don't agree with their decision, but I am pretty good at interfacing with managers. I can tell you how they are thinking (if they are so big as to be able to buy out other competitiors). Their first thought is that all branches of the company should use the same technology. This allows for a centralized support staff, and it allows for easy transitions from one branch to another. It's also easier to order equipment and hire personnel when everything is standard across the board.

      Please understand, this doesn't mean it's the best solution for all branches, but it is the best solution from the viewpoint of upper management, and they are the ones calling the shots. It can be good to have each division handling their own affairs and deciding which technology is best, but in my experience, this requires an amazing amount of competence and integrity out of your lower level managers, which is quite difficult to find.

      Now that they have switched your company over to Windows, you are now a liability. You are paid for your technical expertise, which is no longer needed. If you drag your feet and show that you are not proficient in Windows as well, you become an even bigger liability. At some point, they will ask themselves if it's worth paying to train a UNIX sysadmin to work with the Windows system, especially when they apparently don't want to. It would be cheaper and easier for them to hire Windows sysadmins, and you would probably be happier continuing your work with UNIX elsewhere. At least, that's how they'll justify your firing.

      If they've already switched another shop over and experienced these problems, then you may already have a target on your head. Just be thankful that it's fairly hard to fire employees and hire new ones in their place. So, they may just be waiting for you to trip up and show your incompetence and unwillingness to change as a reason for your dismissal.

      If you like, after you've adapted to the transition, you can write a document that shows the impact cost of switching over, and possibly this may sway their decisions the next time they take over a UNIX shop. If you want your desktop switched back to UNIX, you're also going to have to show that the switch back over to UNIX isn't going to cost them any money now (new hardware and software) or the future (do your own tech support) AND how it will directly benefit the company as a whole -- this means "how will it make us money" in business talk. Remember that everything in business ultimately boils down to cost and profit.

      Best of luck.

      --
      -------------------------------------------------- $665.95 -- retail price of the beast.
  7. Re:Recommendations.... (better format) by metacosm · · Score: 4, Insightful
    You will see cygwin (which others will recommend) totally left out of the recommendations. That is because I find it slow and oversized and I am not a huge fan of it.
  8. Deal with it...a professional would. by Gyler+St.+James · · Score: 5, Insightful
    All these people that tell you to quit or try to convince the bosses otherwise aren't giving you sound advice. I am proficient with both Linux variants and Windows. What does that mean? I'm a professional who isn't afraid to learn a new evironment and that I can find more jobs than someone who refuses to learn the other camp's tools and trade. Reality is, you never know when management will ask you to learn something new and you should see that as a challenge.

    Now, as for learning Windows, take the good advice of some of the other posts and install, learn, rinse, repeat until you have a better understading of Windows. It wonn't be fun, but it is worth it. Knowledge has always been key to advancement at anything and you should see this as our opportunity grow as a professional and as a person. Griping about it will not help your situation and as the saying goes: "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen".

    --

  9. Admin-admins? by yason · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I work in the Network/System Admin team for an ISP. ... has mandated that my team's desktops be switched over from Linux to Windows XP in the next few weeks. ... we won't be allowed to install random programs ... may not have admin access.

    You're on the network/system admin team and you're not going to have root on your boxen? They have admin-administrators then, or what? Usually it takes a huge company to actually have separate departments for IT support/admin and network support/admin.

    We're not happy with the change but we're unable to stop it.
    Professionals need appropriate tools, not toys. The bosses should be interested in you getting the job done with minimum hassle. Tell them that using Windows is going to cause delays and disrupt you from doing the work they're paying you to do, if that's true for your case.
  10. Deal with it... by secolactico · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For what is worth, here's my advice: deal with it.

    If management mandates that you *have* to use Windows XP (which is Win2k with fluff, and win2k is darn good) and that you *won't* have admin access to your desktop, you'll have to swallow the pill or go away.

    I assume you already talked it over with your bosses and failed to convince them to keep the current enviroment, so here's what you should do (assuming you decide not to quit):

    1. Make a list of all the applications you need and make sure they have them (ssh, X server, whatever) and make sure they provide them. They are your work tools and without them, you won't be able to do whatever it is they pay you to do.

    2. Learn to live with Windows. The quicker you adapt, the easier it will be. There are very little workstation related functions that you can do in Linux and not in Windows. The only difference is that you'll probably have to pay for add-ons, as I'm sure you told your bosses, but, hey, it's their call.

    3. Do you really need admin access to your workstation? If so, make your case and present it to them. Do you need to test/install new applications? Do you need to run an application that only runs in admin mode?

    4. Be wary of all those advices we are giving you here (yes, including me). For example, setting a rogue Linux box in a corner and working on it. Going around company policy might land you in hot water even if it's harmless.

    5. Lighten up. It's not the end of the world. If it really makes you that unconfortable, update your resume and try to land another gig.

    --
    No sig
  11. Kinda talked yourself into a corner by Jerf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Based on the criteria as given, you've kind of talked yourself into a corner. If you're not allowed to install "random software", then most of the people here recommending various random software packages aren't going to help here. If you're thinking that you're not going to get any software support, then you're hosed; twiddling preferences in Windows just isn't going to do anything.

    What I would recommend is trying to dig deeper. Why aren't you being allowed to use your preferred environments? Do they need you to run on Outlook? If so, rather then buying everybody a full Office load + all the other Windows crap, buy everybody a copy of Ximian Connector and let everyone run Evolution. If it's Office compatibility, why don't you examine the documents the company is generating and see if they're doing crazy stuff with VBA and ActiveX, or if OpenOffice can cut it. If they want compatibility with other developers, see to what degree they are talking about.

    You need to talk their language, which is of course money, and you've got at least a certain degree of leverage in the fact that the company is going to have to buy a lot of software that will not be free. Ximian + OpenOffice is cheaper then a full Windows+Office+Support suite. Most free software is much cheaper and just fine.

    Moreover, once you find out why you're making the change, you can probably quantify the hidden costs of the transition... and potentially strategies to defray it, perhaps convincing them to purchase (or, in the case of things like Cygwin, allow) the other software. Personally, for instance, being stuck in the sorry excuse for a Windows desktop I'd lose 10% or 20% productivity off the top, because I've become very proficient with multiple desktops being a single keystroke away. (Yes, there is a Powertool that does this but it doesn't match my usage patterns; I want a "move right" key, not just a "Move to Desktop 2".)

    You may find they have legitimate reasons, or you may find that they have delusions. ("We develop in Windows so we want you to apply your Perl skills to our VBA apps."... yeah...) Either way, you'll be better off to talk turkey with them if you get more info. Assuming they've got good reasons, you'll know where to focus on for the software you want to ask for.

    Now, please read the following carefully so you know what I'm saying: If you're stonewalled and if you can simply not get more information of this nature, then it is time to start polishing the resume and looking for a new job unless there is some compelling reason not to. Not because they're forcing you to Windows, per se, which with support could eventually be livable (and a job's a job, right?), but because this is a clear and unambiguous sign that they are completely unwilling to support their developers and deal with them as professionals, rather then children who need to be protected from themselves. Now, if you're OK with being treated as children, that's OK, but I'd be surprised; Unix doesn't encourage that attitude. I am not saying that being forced to Windows is a reason to think seriously about leaving; I am saying to think seriously about leaving if the new company doesn't understand how to best utilize developers (which happens to be the same as keeping them happy, for the most part), and to use this issue as a touchstone. If you can't get this basic information at this stage, it's not going to get better, and it's extremely likely to get worse.

  12. Keep enjoying your paycheck by jhoger · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm surprised they're keeping you being a Unix type admin to administer their Windows network. Basically you're getting an opportunity to learn a whole new environment and skillset on the job at the company's expense.

    Believe me, having a wide variety of skills will suit you best. Look at it as an opportunity and take advantage of it.

    And if you just can't cope with learning new stuff, go find a different industry to be in, because that's how this one works. We adapt given our circumstances. If the job just starts to totally suck quit for that reason.

    F/OSS will achieve TWD whether you have money to pay for rent and groceries or not. Take advantage of the opportunities as you find them.

  13. Re:Information about the ISP in question. by judd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You sir, suck.

    Yes, you're very clever; no, you're not helpful.

    You and this reply should both be modded down.

  14. My Suggestions by esme · · Score: 2, Insightful

    it's been a long time since i've used windows, but the best site at the time was called "windows annoyances". i think this is now www.annoyances.org. there are also books from the same content which i'd recommend as well, if you like the dead-tree format.

    but mainly, i'd suggest trying to work within the system to convince them to make an exception for sys/netadmins and developers. i was in a similar situation about four years ago where i was using linux and transferred into a department where everyone was forced to use windows. so i basically made the case that developers and admins are different, can be responsible for their own machines, and can choose their own tech if they take the responsibility for it. i think the first point is key: once they accept that developers and admins should be allowed to play by different rules, a lot of the resistance will fade.

    the other approach i'd consider would be just flying below the radar running linux. the reason i was using linux in the other dept was my department sysadmin didn't care. this is probably not an option for you with mandates from management and converting the whole department to xp. still, you might be able to repartition your hd and dual boot without getting noticed.

    -esme