Sun Agrees to Talk to IBM over Open Sourcing Java

comforteagle writes "Sun has agreed to meet with IBM to further discuss the issue of open sourcing Java with them. 'Sun is closely evaluating the effectiveness of the process.' Could Sun be coming around to actually doing this?"

Comments

Not very important for me

[Zo0ok]

For my needs and preferences, Java is "free enough". Anyone who ever has turned Java down in favor of something else, because it is not free?

Re:Not very important for me

[----]

I prefer "Unencumbered Enough", "Flexible Enough", "Fast Enough", "Supported Enough" as enough reasons for choosing Java.

Once chosen, I like how strict the OOP was, and the tools that are available.

/* ---- */

Re:Not very important for me

[aled]

Let me quote:
"We're not suggesting Sun open source its directory software or proprietary stuff. Java is already in the JCP [Java Community Process]. It is already a community process that many people have contributed to. It's a mistake to look at it as though Sun is the sole author, and this is not any of their proprietary products."

Re:Not very important for me

[sperling]

Funny you should say this... I can say with certainity that this is being done right now. Although java still is a memory hog, it's way faster than any custom scripting language we could make up, and a lot more flexible than most other mainstream (read: possible to hire expert developers) languages.

Re:Not very important for me

[AvitarX]

Or it could get an original open office (or was it star) type license where non-compatible versions must be open source but if it is 100% compatible it can be closed.

Re:Not very important for me

[Tony-A]

Actually, the question -- or the worry -- is more around how to prevent somebody from forking Java and kill the "Write Once, Run Everywhere" idiom.

And methinks this is where IBM is even more on SUN's side than SUN itself.
Think what needs to be the replacement for mountains of COBOL on mainframes.

I'm no expert on Java, but every time I look at it I get visions of gaggles of mainframes. (No I don't mean clusters. Clusters are a cheap hack to pretend to a non-existant level of reliability).

Um. An?

[ackthpt]

Sun officials planned to meet with IBM as early as Thursday to discuss the merits of whether the company should work with IBM on an independent project to create an open-source implementation of Java.

Wait... an .. implementation?

Rick Ross, president of Javalobby Inc., of Cary, N.C., an association of Java developers with more than 100,000 members, said, "On the surface, Rod's reply indicates a clear willingness on IBM's behalf to invest in an independent, open-source Java implementation that would benefit everyone"

What? Two Javas? This sounds weird. Obviously an open source implementation will grow and respond to demand rapidly and outpace something proprietary, yet it sounds like there will still be a proprietary version. Can anyone shed light on this? I'm confused.

I think it only makes sense

[robslimo]

As Sun has already stated (in response to criticisms) that they have no problem with someone working up an Open Source version, as long as the spec is adhered to. Now someone with serious manpower is offering to do exactly that.

I'm not surprised at all. Quite pleased, actually.

Microsoft's Stand?

[GTsquirrel42]

So, what does M$ have to say about this? Will they be in favor of open-sourcing Java, or will Steve pull the "open-source-is-dangerous" rabbit back out?

Just wondering

[captain_craptacular]

Don't hate me, but has anyone ever thought that this might not be a *good* thing? As irrational as it sounds there are probably a number of companies out there who are using Java just because the PHB's have decided that since it's "owned" by a major company like Sun, it must be good/stable/etc... These same cover your arse PHB's may not like the fact that the language they depend on has no "official support"... I'm thinking of the type of boss who would deploy RH or SuSE but not Debian...

Re:Just wondering

[bc90021]

That is likely why they would dual-license it, ala MySQL. The PHBs and the CXOs get a version that comes with Enterprise support that they pay for, and the Geeks get an open source free version that they can use that has no support.

It's being done quite successfully with MySQL, so Sun would be remiss if they didn't at least explore their options. IBM has proven that they will support open source (as it furthers their ends as well), and doing this for Java would help with their server offerings as well.

Really, I can't see how everyone won't win.

If done right...

[brasten]

Wow... despite my skepticism in previous posts, I do think this CAN be done and done right. I think it would be VERY smart to get IBM and Sun to work *extremely* closely on this. In much the same way IBM is defending Linux currently, Java would still need that corporate support to defend it against outside challenges.

But, it could work...

This could be very good indeed

[seldolivaw]

It's well-known within IBM (I worked a summer there) that IBM's implementation of Java on Linux and Windows is a lot faster than Sun's own. IBM for a long time has wished it had a way to make its implementation the standard for this reason. Sun must also be aware how slow their implementation is, and this gives them an honourable way of getting their hands on IBM's code without handing over control to IBM. It's a win-win, so hopefully this will happen.

Mad Hatter

[almaon]

I wonder if this will have any impact on the development and direction of Mad Hatter, with IBM's ongoing journey to bring linux to a wider audience. These two companies in bed, in marriage, could produce some interesting offspring for Java and ultimately could very well trickle down to Mad Hatter.

Could this venture open up doors for Mad Hatter to become a part of IBM's fleet of products? Any thoughts?

Re:Mad Hatter

[jared_hanson]

A IBM/Sun combination could make for some interesting happenings. I think most people would agree that Sun has made some costly mistakes, and it is bringing them down. Conversely, IBM has made the opposite decisions, which is starting to really pay off for them.

IBM is quite interesting to watch. They've largely thrown their weight behind Linux. The also holding the high cards at the Java table. They are trying to leverage their chip advantage to get Sun to meet their demands. Iterestingly, they also are a big investor in the whole Novell/SuSE/Ximian deal, the people leading the .NET and Mono charge. They've also got numerous other OSs, chips, and other products within the company.

My take on the situation: Linux is at the point where it needs to rally behind a driving force. I'm all for choice and all, but you don't beat Microsoft by constant infighting and fractured ideas. As the old saying goes, united we stand but divided we fall.

I think IBM should outright buy Sun. Sun is failing and would be a cheap aquisition. Waiting any longer will just give Microsoft a bigger advantage as the .NET platform gains steam. The primary reason for the aquisition would be for Java, but a lot of other interesting products would come along. I've always thought IBM's product line needed some consolidation. For instance, Sun would bring in Solaris and IBM should move to a dual OSs strategy: Linux and a proprietary, high-end UNIX that combines Solaris/AIX/etc. There is room for both those products. A lot of work would have to be done on integrating and perhaps open sourcing various middleware and application servers.

On the development side, I believe it would be tremendous if IBM (with Sun and Ximian under their wings) would step up and iron out both Java and Mono, along with providing a tight IDE with Eclipse. This could make Linux the development platform of choice.

Of course, development isn't worth much if you don't have an installed base to deploy to. With Novell/SuSE/Ximian, IBM could generate a nice, consistent, integrated desktop environment and provide the corporate sway in convincing businesses to switch from Microsoft.

In short, I think IBM has the most incentive to see Microsoft fall from dominance. They've shown their willingness to get behind an open platform. The community should show their support and get behind IBM. It will yeild the greatest long term benefit.

Re:Um. An?

[ackthpt]

Then there will be enough libre programmers to make decent libre IDEs etc, and the proprietary Java will wither away (and Sun with it).

This, aside from Sun withering away, is what I see, too. Or possibly worse, a fork. Anything added to the OSS that finds its way into Suns would likely fall under the GPL, how's Sun feel about that? Clearly Sun and IBM have some things to sort out.

Crossing my fingers!

[provoix]

From the article - "Sun officials planned to meet with IBM as early as Thursday to discuss the merits of whether the company should work with IBM on an independent project to create an open-source implementation of Java."

Well...perhaps they've seen the benefit of the OpenOffice project.

NOT free enough

[Anonymous Coward]

It is NOT free enough because it cannot come by default with linux distros. License states that third parties cannot distribute java development kit. It will be free enough for me when I can do:

apt-get install j2sdk-1.4.2

Now it is not. Of course having source available and having the right to mofify and distribute your own version (f.e. optimized for athlon or modified to conform to debian-standards) of java would be a HUGE bonus, but it is not THAT necessary.

--Coder

Quite important for me

[qortra]

I use Debian, and generally speaking, if it isn't free enough for Debian, it isn't free enough for me. Beyond my hatred for the lack of JRE in the main unstable tree (which is really annoying), there is also an ethical ideal of truly free software that is being violated by Java.

Many people believe RMS is too hardcore about sticking to his guns on this issue, but I do believe he has a good point. Many programs are "free" for temporary use, and Java is one of them. Other examples of superficially free software are Windows Media Player and Adobe Acrobat, for which there are no guarantees of future freedom. These programs, like Java, introduce standards and structure that other people build on. If the freedom of these platforms was to be compromised, many poeple could stand to lose a great deal of work. The only way to guarantee the possibility of future support is to open source it.

Open Source

[jefu]

I'd have thought that Sun might have learned something about opening source by now. NeWS, the rather radical window system that sun built in the late 80's probably failed mostly because it was kept proprietary (at least many who used it thought so). When X was openly and freely available, it was tough for even the excellent technical solution NeWS was to compete.

<offtopic>
Does anyone know if there are implementations of NeWS available as open source now? Has anyone working on one of the "X Is Icky - I have a Better Way" window systems looked at NeWS for a model? Enquiring minds (however enfeebled) want to know.
</offtopic>

OpenSource susbtitute of agreement between company

[nereid666]

It si very interesting to listen how one company talks with another in order to achieve the liberation of a technology and asking to release it as opensource. I think it is a revolution, years ago one company made a deal with another under propiertary licenses.
Do they arrive to a private deal? Or they arrive to a deal with the benefit of everyone, in opensource-way?

Yay!

[Gorath99]

I really hope this works out. Not because "free as in beer" isn't good enough for me (it is), but because it'll help focus the Java community.

We want Java's greatest supporters on one line, so they can face the growing competition of C# instead of bickering among themselves about whose VM/Gui toolkit/IDE/Compiler is the best.

Getting an OSS Java is just a nice bonus.

IBM has put Sun in a corner

[agslashdot]

Say your boss wants to make a deal with you. He says get to work at 7am, you say 9am. He says "Lets talk about it".
Now, you can't really say "No", can you ?
Think about it.
If you did, you'll sound unreasonable & stubborn. People may suspect you have something fishy going on, that absolutely prevents you from even talking about it.
So you are forced to say "Ok, lets talk".

Standard management tactic.

IBM has a $96 share price with 166 billion market cap. When they say "Lets talk about it", someone worth only 5 bucks a share and two quarters of operating losses is forced to say "ok".

Sun and IBM Questions

[solprovider]

What part of Java is being open sourced?

The specifications are controlled by the JCL. Sun has a never-used veto power that allows them to keep control of the trademark. Can this be more "open"? Java is a programming language being designed by a committee. Do you really want everyone in the world to be on the committee?

Are they talking about the StandardEdition, or every version of Java? If SUN will lose the revenues from the cell phone makers, this is not feasible.

Are they talking about releasing the JVM under the GPL? Why does IBM need SUN to help with this? IBM has their own JVM that was faster than SUN's JVM (from my own experiences using JVM 1.3.) Is there a reason that IBM cannot GPL their version? IBM has been trying to wrest control of Java from SUN for years. Could IBM GPL their JVM and force the issue for SUN?

Is the issue that SUN should be the one to dual-license the code so that GPL'd code changes can be added to the commercial branch? I am not clear about the legality of that.

The only real issue seems that OSS needs a freely redistributable JVM to include with Linux distros and other software. OSS is good so debugging can see further down, although that can be difficult when the layers change language. A GPL'd JVM might be forked over features as well as implementation, but implementations have already forked, and Sun can control the features by not allowing their trademark to be used for non-compliant VMs. Please reply with clarifications.

IBM , troll or Arch angel?

[xot]

As a company the Big Blue does pretty well for itself, has numerous patents but what is its position in the general tech scene? Do most people see IBM as evil or good?
Of course they definitely aint in the MS (bad) league by my standards, they've done more good than bad for the technology as far as i know.Ok so they wanna make a few bucks on the way, thats not all that bad is it? I'd say angel(maybe i just like the color blue.)

Money

[TooTechy]

From a financial standpoint, and let's face it, that is from where IBM is talking, IBM stand to gain everything from an open source Java.

Fair's fair IBM. If Sun offers Java then perhaps you should volunteer WebSphere!

Hopefully, this will help improve J2EE...

[Xardion]

because the development process for it has been WAY too cumbersome for me in the past, and I've been seriously looking at C#/.Net as an alternative. And being a pretty vehement Microsoft hater, that's pretty damn serious.

Let Java Go!

[pants1973]

I think this is a kick-ass idea and want to thank Eric S. Raymond for lighting the kindling under the asses of Sun to help get this moving. If Java is not open-sourced - soon - it will die. Not die in the sense that it will go away, but it will a very slow, and very painful death. One of lesser technology, slower tools, lesser open source support and especially with the Mono project, a laughable contender in the web-services area. I seriously think that if Java were open-sourced by mid 2004 in a GPL-style license, then C# and .Net would be given a serious run for its money. Everyone chant with me ... Set Java Free ..... Set Java Free....

I'll join an open source effort

[taj]

If Sun and IBM work on an Open Source Java, I'll work at merging the project I maintain with their efforts.

http://www.rxtx.org

Sun's license issues have been problematic for our project. I look forward to an Open Source Java.

Excellent publicity.

[Futurepower(R)]

One thing that needs to be said is that this is worth millions of dollars in free publicity for IBM. There are many programmers who, before IBM started supporting Open Source, would not have considered working for IBM.

I'm not saying that IBM is asking for Java to be Open Source because of publicity. But that support has a wonderful side-effect for the company.

It's great to have a large organization like IBM that can use its voice to do something that has long been needed. The world needs better GUI support for Java.

We need true native Java compilers, so that it is not easy to de-compile Java, as it is now. (I get the impression that GCJ merely makes calls to libgcj, as the home page says, and is therefore easy to decompile. Does anyone know if that is true?) Business logic is very easy to steal through de-compilation.

Too Free?

[cheezit]

Believe it or not, there are corporate IT shops that shy away from anything open-source---even if you can show a support contract. In a place like that, any movement of Java to open-source is a negative, not a positive. And since those shops are exactly where Java is popular, Sun is not stupid to go slow.

These corporate IT shops think they have leverage over the big-$$ vendors by virtue of the fat checks that they can hold back (sometimes true, sometimes not). No check, no leverage, no support.

The reality is that much of IT is about budgets, not technology. Senior managers still work with money long after whatever technical skills they had are gone, so that's the club they use on vendors.

Re:It's realism, not idealism.

[FatherOfONe]

Well I don't know what he/she writes in, but I use SWING and have only had a few MAJOR issues with Java.
1. Out of 7 JVM's on multiple OS's only ONE JVM displayed gui development poorly. That was Microsoft's JVM. All the rest looked EXACTLY the same. Some were slower than others, but only the Microsoft one acted plain wrong.
2. When I used an X/Y layout manager stuff would not behave as expected. When I went to any other layout manager they worked well.

My issue is with point one above. I had a HUGE battle because "The Microsoft JVM was already loaded on every machine". The developers who were not Microsoft lackies had to fight hard to get another JVM loaded. For everyone who wants an "Open Source JAVA", I have the question. What happens when Microsoft ships a version that is poisioned and acts differently? We the client side Java developers will have to make a choice, and unfortunately for a lot of shops that would mean using Microsoft's Java.