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Lighting Control on Non-Windows Systems?
fgodfrey asks: "Being a computer geek during the day and a theater geek at night, I'm looking to combine the two and turn a non-Windows computer into a theater lighting console. All the products out there that I've seen (such as Martin's 'Light Jockey' and Rosco's 'Horizon') only seem to support Windows. I'm looking for a solution that works on Linux, or preferably, Mac OS X. It also would require a DMX converter (DMX being the standard in dimmer control protocols) that could plug into the computer. I'm looking to be able to run an entire theater show directly from the computer. Has anyone out there tried such a thing? Before anyone suggests X10, it is not really acceptable for theater lighting as it doesn't respond 'instantly' to commands and would require a ton of X10 boxes."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF -8&q=linux+dmx+control&spell=1
are stupid "dear slashdot, i do everyday things, and sometimes, not so everyday things, but im a geek and that some how makes me special, heres how i want to combine computers and stuff other, non-geeks do..."
anyway, googleing for "
theater lighting linux -X10" got me this:
http://llg.cubic.org/dmx43/
Hmm, this is as good a place as any to ask:
I do studio photography as a semi-hobby. Actually I just learned it to do copy work and now want to do photography of sculpture and other 3-d objects.
I'm using 500W photo lamps (hot, not flash) and I use X10 appliance modules to turn them on and off remotely. I set multiple lamps to the same code and switch them all on and off at once, it's pretty handy.
But now I'm getting some much bigger lamps (1000W+).
Anybody know what I could use to switch them on and off like I do with X10?? I've gotten spoiled with my low-wattage setup.
This lighting control stuff looks like it might be useful but I don't need 250 channels, more like 10. Just wondering if anybody has seen anything like this for the photo market.
my shitty school still used an apple ][e for this task.
This open solution
You might try LanBox's LCedit on the mac side.
"The worst tyrannies were the ones where a governance required its own logic on every embedded node." - Vernor Vinge
I hate pc based lighting control systems, I work in an enviroment where we have a lot of touring shows, and one night events in our several theatres, and I can ensure that I hate our horizon systems with a passion.
Some people like them, but I suspect that it's just a novelty, I like to have hands on control of my work. The problem with the pc solutions is that they limit you to making one change at a time, slowing down the creation of cues. Don't want to make cues, and just go with two scene preset or run with submasters, you're out of luck. Try to do a smooth manual fade, how smooth can you move a mouse.
There are only two times when I would look to a pc based solution; I use horizon and my laptop as a super remote focus unit, or when trying to create a show that can be run by just one person.
They just aren't worth the trouble, mousing around is just frustrating. The only time I would recomend this to someone is if they were concerned only with price, and had no intrest in user frendlyness.
Check out the Whole Hog PC it's the only system I know of that you didin't mention in your list.
As for the linux thing, it would help these systems as far as stability goes. But I dobut if these systems will really catch on in highend use due to resistance from people like me.
These systems are basically just a traditional lighting controler minus all the special input hardware. This is the system that we're replacing our light pallet 90 with, but notice that even though it is pc based it uses a full light board for input.
So in conclusion, not very useful, only good in a budget pinch, or when one of their special capabilitys (like remote operation, or sound macros) is needed. They do make a great remote focus unit though, much better than the little push button dealies, but that's not saying much.
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DMX isn't rocket science, with a simple midi to dmx converter (like this one: http://www.cinetix.de/intrface/english/midmxbox.ht m) you can send DMX control data from any application that can work with midi, which should give you a choice of dozens of apps, whichever platform you decide to use... try here: http://xmidi.com/apps.html for OS X.
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Most of the professional level lighting controllers do not run windows. In fact, I'd wager that PC-based lighting control is in the severe minority.
Most lighting consoles use an embedded OS and proprietary software. Which is okay, because DMX lighting control takes very very little processing power. For those of you who don't know, DMX is the standardized interface/protocol for lighting control, and has been around for quite a while.
That being said, you don't really want something too complicated, as it adds too many points of failure. No matter what the OS you're running, you can't risk a crash/kernel panic before or during a show.
In addition, you don't NEED a sophisticated OS for lighting control. It's not rocket science, and even the weakest of computers can handle it without breaking a sweat.
The console I use probably has less power than an Apple ][. It has no hard drive, and the only moving part is the floppy drive which can be used to move configurations between consoles. Plus, it's completely silent (which is important in this business). Also, inputting commands with a mouse and QWERTY keyboard is absolutely inefficent for lighting control especially if you're mixing on the fly. Having specific buttons and sliders for certain common tasks is a necessity. We also have a submaster board which gives you 120 sliders (one for each light). It is incredibly convienent.
If you've got thousands of lights and don't change your performance often, a PC-based solution is for you. Otherwise, a pre-built, proprietary solution is for you. Open isn't important. You could easily hack together a solution in linux, as DMX is incredibly easy to control... the true cost always lies in the hardware. You'll end up spending more using a PC based solution than a dedicated console.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Get one of these dongles and you can roll your own light board. Comes with all the C libraries you'll need. Or if your feeling extra macho build your DMX frames by hand in VI.
SD
âoeWho knew something as harmless as willful ignorance could end up having real consequences?â
...he wanted Mac OS X support.
:)
So you'd have to go here and scroll all the way down to #3.
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get a Whole Hog system from High End Systems. The OS on the board is rolled from scratch linux, and the boards are pretty much an industry standard due to the high quality of their product. They're not cheap, but they are the best. It'll probably do everything you want to do and more. if you really are a theater geek, you should know about them. they are one of the few real names in robotic lighting.
I use a really cheap MIDI keyboard to trigger the presets of my light show. It really saves a lot of key pressing to get to different pages of scenes. I can still grab a fixture manually and make adjustments on-the-fly
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We have an as-yet-unamed solution that I funded and co-wrote back when I was making phat-cash in the dot-com days. It's GPL'd, written using OmniOrb/C++ and Python/GTK. It uses a PCI DMX card from soundlight.de and is fairly much rock-solid. I've used it for multiple shows, some of them fairly complex. Give me a shout if you're interested. We haven't spend any real resources on packaging it. We have a web page for us http://inaugust.com -- but you won't find links there. So just contact me directly and I'll hook you up with info.
Are you selecting to use a PC, because you want to? Or is that just what you think would work best?
Personally, I think that a Mac would better benefit you in this type of situation, as it is better for video editing, graphics, etc. The Mac's refresh rate just always seems to give that extra kick over the PC. I believe that it is also higher, stock, but I'm not totally sure.
For a PC though, I'm pretty sure you can find some OS that is made for just video editing. Search Google and you'll find a lot of stuff that you never thought existed. You're going to need a great video card and a lot of RAM nonetheless, though!
"Instant gratification takes too long." - Carrie Fisher
DMX4Linux is a project to develop kernel device drivers for DMX dongles and cards. Programming for the driver looks ridiculously simple. But you're probably looking for a more ready-made solution... well, there is the included X program, DMXPanel, but it's no Martin Show Designer. A quick search on Freshmeat brings up a few more full-featured programs, but they're all simple slider-type programs, so you still have to know exactly what's going to happen to your Martin MX400 when you send it "142" on channel 7 -- will it start scanning with a green filter and a spiderweb gobo, or will it just start smoking and turn off?
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Look for a real lighting board. Most have computer links via serial and run from a dos based screen to display scene advances, programming and control.
Back in my old high school, my last year in drama (SR year) we got a hold of a light board that accepted programming from a serial pc. We used a lunchbox 286 with a monochrome screen non productionally. When it came down to the real production we just used the boards programmable scenes or winged it ourselves. I cant remember the unit brand we used but it also had a pcima slot for adding flash memory pcima cards (the years before flash came in those handy little smart media size and compact flash sizes) for storing scene data and other selections.
We never got really into the board as we were SR's in the school and the school was going to be renovated the next year for 6th and 7th graders. Its a shame we didnt have some real time to play with the thing. Our light pack only handled 12 channels and that thing was a clunker. 2 of the voice coils sang out loud but otherwise it functioned as long as the DMX card didnt get damaged.
God I miss being a theatre tech geek! At least I still get to twiddle with sound boards every now and then and cheapie dj lightboards for small concerts.
DRACO-
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What about MIDI - there is a wealth of gear that supports it from computers to sequencers to dimmers. As a plus, the DMX converters already exist for the format. All the light consoles I used are configured with the ability to either remotely control or by remotely controlled by other fixtures through MIDI.
When did Leprecon make the switch? I've never found a hint of an MS based OS in any of the boards I've used. I just finished up a show with a LP-1536, and I've got stashed somewhere an older LP-500 and an LP-612 - if any of them are running Win95 internally, they sure don't show it anywhere.
You're going to need to weigh the pros/cons of having multiple consoles vs a single PC. On one hand, if you're short on space, the PC is more compact. On the other hand, as the original poster metioned, most PC based systems require MS-Windows. I've found in my experience over the years, the old fashioned two scene board with programmibility (presets, cues, chases) to be the most versatile and easiest to use on a moment's notice.
There has been one case over the years, where the PC based solution was superior to the console. We used to use an old Martin 3032 DOS based control system (on a 486) for a bank of roboscans. It was replaced with an Avolites Azure. The PC has proven more userfriendly, easier to program, more stable, and more reliable still than the replacement console.
As a compromise to having a PC do everything, you might want to look at the Express/Expression from ETC. They have an offline editor for the PC that you can use to create a show, and then upload it to the console for further tweaking/operation.
The gripe about X10 imposing latency is pretty significant -- it's annoying even for general use.
X10 really sucks. I've been slowly forcing myself to come to grips with the fact ever since setting up an X10 controller. Among the things wrong with it:
* X10 does not mandate that devices respond to any kind of "ping" or "broadcast". If you misconfigure something, it's annoying to figure out what the addresses of everything are.
* X10 transfers data extremely slowly, giving the high latency that irritates people so much. I realize that fancy signal analysis may cost more, but I've very dubious that the incredibly slow trickle of bits is required.
* X10 as a parotocol is a bit of a hack, and the extensions to it are awful -- for example, my SmartHome light fixture doesn't even support the standard dimming commands -- it uses its own.
* X10 devices frequently do not support a "request status" command. IMO, that should be a mandatory feature of a protocol such as this.
* X10 isn't even all that inexpensive, which one would expect, given its extreme technical limitations.
May we never see th
These guys, i've used their stuff at school and at a theatre i work at sometimes, its a combination of a computer(non windows, custom OS iirc...) and a light board. Very nice, , very modular and very easy to use. And since their stuff is used by schools and a small local theatre it cant be that expensive.
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you know there really should be a +1 funny flamebait modifier. And if I hadn't already joined this thread, I woulda modded you up, man. I don't ind burning mod points.
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By definition, a PC is a computer for personal use. If you're only using it to control theater lighting, then it's not being used for personal use and therefore cannot be considered a PC.
Luke-Jr
I hate Virtual PC. I have to use it for like grandMA Offline and Hog PC and such, but it's just so slow. I would really like to see a good Mac based control system, kinda like Light Jockey. It would also be nice to see a visualization program made for Panther, like Wysiwig or Show Designer.
I was talking to a guy from High End at LDI last year, and was asking him if they were going to make a Hog PC for Mac OS X since the Hog console is PPC based now, and he said that they were working on it. Who knows? If you find something that works well, post it.
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My folks are building a new house at this very moment. Remote control lighting is one of the things my mother would like. It's not so much the turning on and off of lights upstairs from downstairs that she wants (although I'm sure she wouldn't mind the "feature"). Instead she wants the ability to turn on some of the house's lights via remote as she's coming up the drive. The house is in the sticks where it's nice and quiet and no one can hear a Jehovah Witness solicitor scream ( :-) ). The bad thing is my folks arrive home at different times and usually after dark. It's a mile or so as the crow flies to the nearest neighbor. Obviously my mother would prefer to turn on numerous lights for security reasons. Does anyone have any recommendations for this application?
Z-wave is a new lighting control system that uses rf in a mesh topology. Supposedly be very fast and scalable. Its not out yet but should be in a few months.
"Its not rocket surgery, which of these things is kinda like the other"
This seems to be the type of device you would want to attach. It might be overkill, but it would do the trick and looks very nice. I would be surprised if there isn't a plastic $5 knockoff out there
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Check out Radiance, http://radsite.lbl.gov/radiance/
You could get a DMXethergate and then (if you are really a "computer geek") roll your own UI.