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'Civilization on Mars' Claims Debunked

Posted by michael on from the need-less-bunk-in-the-world dept.

StarEmperor writes "Bad Astronomy's Phil Plait has finally taken some time to debunk conspiracy theorist Richard Hoagland's claims about life on Mars. There's also a CNN story about this here."

9 of 379 comments (clear)

  1. Science education..... by BWJones · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This sort of thing simply exemplifies the sad state of science education in the general public. People when presented with the most superficial of data will adopt as truth the most extreme or absurd of claims with no critical assessment. This sort of blind trust allows folks to be taken in by claims of better health through unproven herbal supplements or claims of penile enlargments. On more serious notes, the lack of critical thinking among some has led to political and international policy that threatens to influence the state of world affairs.

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    1. Re:Science education..... by cozziewozzie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People are much more likely to accept something as a fact if it comes from 'a scientist'. It is as if thinking is a chore delegated to a few, and something most people shouldn't be concerned about. I always get a chuckle when reading about the great discoveries 'American scientists have proved' (for some reason, it always seem to be American scientists): children who chew bubble-gum are more intelligent; people who drink kool-aid grow more facial hair, etc etc etc.

      I have recently had a discussion about dieting with a group of engineers (one of them a PhD). It was about a two-week diet where the person only drinks water. It is supposed to clean the body of toxins (very easily true) and improve one's sport performance (WTF?!). Apparently, they read in a book that after the body gets used to not having food, it draws the energy from the body itself and doesn't need food anymore. And these were educated people. Made me understand why so many people buy the etheric oil and penis enlargement crap.

    2. Re:Science education..... by AndroidCat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't forget news programs/publications that give "balanced coverage". This frequently amounts to giving equal weighting to crackpots without much in the way of critical analysis. They might say that they are giving all viewpoints coverage and letting the viewer decide, but they first decided which viewpoints got airtime/print space, didn't they? I think it has more to do with laziness.

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  2. American Education Period.... by MooseByte · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "This sort of thing simply exemplifies the sad state of science education in the general public."

    Not just science ed, but the basic skill of critical thinking. I can't speak for how things are going in the rest of the world, but here in the US it's gotten particularly sad. People as a whole just don't seem able or willing to be bothered by thinking for themselves.

    Seems to me that many moons ago, even those who lacked formal higher education could be counted on to have "horse sense" - the simple ability to call "Shenanigans" when faced with something fishy, and run the snake oil salesman out of town.

    These days it seems everyone's simply lining up for snake oil subscriptions. What's up? Too much "Reality" TV? Sure folks have always been duped, but damn it seems like a national pastime these days.

    1. Re:American Education Period.... by Hiro+Antagonist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In large part, this problem can be placed squarely on the shoulders of American parents. The ones who are too busy working long hours to afford SUVs and big-screen TVs to spend time with their kids. Love is shown, not through sitting down and reading a book to your six-year-old, but by purchasing them a PlayStation.

      Education begins at home; the schools can't be expected to inspire kids, especially when the two biggest influences on their lives are nominally apathetic towards everything but material acquisition. Few children will ever learn to love reading in a house where the parents don't, and critical thinking skills can't just be taught in the classroom, because the environment is just too limited.

      Many parents also have this nasty habit of riding the educators long and hard, basically dictating what and how the school will teach. Nevermind the fact that the educators have spent years studying How To Educate -- the parents always know how to teach their kids better.

      The end result is that schools have crippled their curriculums, by and large, because of the insane number of frivolous lawsuits brought on by irate parents, who were 'concerned' about what their kids were learning. They didn't want their kids learning about things that might upset them, or that might conflict with their religious beliefs, or that might seem racist in any way, shape, or form.

      History teachers have to walk on tiptoes because they have to present a politically incorrect subject (human history) in a politically correct fashion. Evolution is under fire in biology classes because it contradicts religious doctrine, nevermind that it is the accepted theory for how life originated. Philosophy classes are never taught in high schools, and we don't have much art or music because they are unimportant next to teaching the kids how to use a word processor...which they already learned how to do at home.

      Hell, students nowadays are rarely ever failed or held back a year, because of parental uproar -- there are kids that make it to high school without being able to read beyond a fourth-grade level. My father quit teaching because he was tired of having to explain Shakespeare to people who could barely make it through Dr. Seuss.

      What's the solution? Change our culture. Get people to stop worrying about nice cars and expensive clothes, and instead start spending actual time with their kids. Read to them. Tell them stories of your youth. Help them figure out when advertisements are bull, and praise them for accomplishment. Punish them when they misbehave. Above all, just be there.

      But this will never happen here.

      Grr. Okay. Done now.

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    2. Re:American Education Period.... by innerweb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In large part, this problem can be placed squarely on the shoulders of American parents.

      Or, as I prefer to put it, we the voters have a moral obligation to ensure that the people in power do what is right for our country, and our children.

      Dang! One of the few posts I would give a +5 to and I don't have the point.

      I come from a teaching family and I have worked in the schools. I have been able to see children grow from 0 to 30 in my life. The neat thing about that is I see patterns. Those children whose parents were passionate about education and were available to their children tended to be passionate about education themselves. Those parents who were not home, or did not spend time with their children on a daily basis (not 5 minutes, but hours per day) tended to have learning and life problems. Not a one size fits all thing, but certainly true enough most of the time. It is amazing how often the teachers can observe a child and then tell you exactly what the parents are like. No, you will not hear them do it in public. They value their jobs as well. But, the fact that they rarely miss the mark, says a lot about the connection between parents and children.

      If you really want better schools, it starts with better parents. If you want better parents, then you have to let it be known what your standards are to the parents around you. If they do not like it. Tough! They are not good enough to put in charge of your child, and their child may prove to be not good enough to be around yours at that point. It is not their child's fault, but their child's parents. Still, do you want your child being influenced by the their lack of parenting?

      If WE ALL demanded more from parents around us, and we all demanded more from our elected officials, we would get more. People are like water, they tend to sink as low as they can and do as little as possible to get where they are headed.

      What does this have to do with nutcases like this one? If people demanded more from their media, the same thing would happen as well. It all begins with a proper education where you learn to hold yourself and the world around you to higher standards. Goes for software too.

      InnerWeb

      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
  3. Cost to Cosat AM by astrashe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Hoagland regularly appears on Coast to Coast AM, an overnight syndicated talk show with something like 12 million listeners.

    They get the listeners to email NASA demanding ridiculous things. Another poster pointed out that they got a Mars probe to drop other important work to take more photos of the "face on mars."

    When NASA did it, Hoagland went on the radio and accused NASA of faking the photos to hide the evidence. He's a classic delusional type, who sees any evidence that proves him wrong as proof that there's a conspiracy.

    A lot of the problem is the radio show, which is irresponsible, in my view. During the whole Y2K scare, one of the hosts hyped the hell out of it, and sold people overpriced bunker food on the side.

    I understand the appeal of the show, and I enjoy that sort of thing myself. The argument for it is that it's sort of like pro wrestling -- it's just a show, everyone knows it's just a show, and the few people who don't just make the whole thing that much more entertaining. I can buy all of that.

    The problem comes when these guys start scaring people and exploiting them (with the bunker food), or when they create real problems for NASA. NASA has enough troubles now, they don't need this crap.

    I'm *NOT* calling for any kind of government action, or any sort of censorship. I don't support what's happening to Howard Stern, and I wouldn't support anyone hassling Coast to Coast AM.

    I do think it's appropriate for other people to wake up to how many listeners these guys have, and to try to keep them relavtively honest. These sorts of articles are a great start.

  4. Re:Mindless /. groupthink by ai0524 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Fundamentally everything comes down to the evidence and which theory best describes the evidence. The difference in the claims are that Hoagland indiciates that the best explanation of the evidence is that there is (was) an advanced civilization on Mars and that there is a vast conspiracy to conceal this discovery. That is a pretty extraordinary claim and needs some pretty extraordinary evidence to support it.


    Maybe this claim is true. Maybe it isn't. However since for the moment all evidence of this claim has explanations that are much simpler we are required to accept this simpler explanation that fits the evidence.


    We are skeptical, as science requires us to be. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there doen't appear to be any such evidence for the moment. Furthermore the burden of proof is on Hoagland and others who make such claims.

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  5. Re:Mindless /. groupthink by tuffy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The picture of the fossil featured on RCH's site recently is one of the most incredible pictures I've ever seen. And guess what, NASA refuses to talk about it and they ground the damn thing into dust!!!.

    To NASA, an actual fossil of something on Mars means big headlines and (more importantly) big funding. I can't find any reason they would destroy one that doesn't involve donning a tinfoil hat first.

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    Ita erat quando hic adveni.