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'Nano-Lightning' Could Cool Computer Chips

Posted by timothy on from the applause-would-be-micro-thunderous dept.

FizzyC writes "A story on New Scientist describes a technique to cool computer chips using charged ions. The system consists of 300 electrodes that ionise and then pump the air molecules across the surface of the chip. The Purdue University technology is the first air-based system to produce a cooling rate similar to water - 40 watts per square centimetre."

72 comments

  1. Nice. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Holy crap that's cool. (har har)

    Though, I would have preferred a degrees C / watt measurement of thermal resistance, rather than 40 watts / cm^2.

  2. Overclocking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just imagine the overclocking you could do with THAT. (And imagine a Beowulf cluster of those)

  3. Question is... by shachart · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How much heat does this heatsink *produce*, by ionizing air. I suspect than not much less than the 40W/cm2 it claims to cool.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, consult.
    1. Re:Question is... by Smidge204 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Probably none. Don't confuse ionizing air with generating plasma.

      This is very similar to the "Ionic Breeze" air cleaners, using high voltage potentials to move air. The heat it generates is absolutely negligible.
      =Smidge=

    2. Re:Question is... by Biege · · Score: 1

      The point of cooling a chip is to get excess heat away from its rather small volume into some larger volume where the heat can be more easily dealt with. Even the usual fans produce some extra heat, but in comparison to the chip that is not much (otherwise passive cooling would be sufficient).

    3. Re:Question is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No kidding. I can't believe the grandparent of this post got modded up... IN THE SCIENCE SECTION! You'd think people here would have some idea about why cooling CPUs specifically is important.

  4. Cooling Things with Outside Air? by core+plexus · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I'm curious, why is there no work on cooling things using outside air? Where I live (Alaska) it is generally cool for 8 months of the year. I wonder why we don't have fridges that exchange cool air from outside, and with some polishing, use cool air to cool our computers. In some parts of Alaska, they get -40 (40 degrees below zero) for weeks. Seems like it would be an energy saver. Can anyone correct me or point to some info?

    -cp-

    Alaska Village invited to test cheap, clean nuclear power

    1. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by hawkbug · · Score: 1

      I've always thought about that as well, being in Colorado/Iowa most of my life. It seems dumb to waste energy running the fridge/freezer when the weather outside is much colder than the fridge settings. During the summer you would obviously need to use the energy - but during the winter you could save a ton of power. You'd pretty much just need a thermometer, fan, and a vent running outside. It could have a door that closes the vent up when the temp reaches your preset level. It's definitely not rocket science, it would just require some duct work through your house.

    2. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe they figure it's just more efficient for Alaskans to use their computers as backup heaters.

    3. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by ike6116 · · Score: 1

      Because exchanging cool air in a refridgerator would cut the electric company out greatly... I smell conspiracy!

      --

      Are you secure enough in your masculinity to run 'man touch'?
    4. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by TykeClone · · Score: 1

      Agreed (hate agreeing with a hawkeye though)

      Even just a heat pump or something to cool a server room while venting the heat into the living/work areas would have to save something.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    5. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by WormholeFiend · · Score: 1

      during our harsh Canadian winter, I put my AMD Athlon case against the window to cool the inside temp even more, using the natural thermal conductivity of the metal case.

      I got my new comp last fall, so I dunno what I'm going to do this fast approaching summer...

    6. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by Quarters · · Score: 1

      Would the percentage of the population who lives in the cold climates and be interested in the technology be sufficient to recoup any R&D costs expended on the technology?

    7. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by hawkbug · · Score: 1

      With rising energy costs, I would say yes. And there isn't much research needed as I stated... we're talking about putting in a tube from the back of your fridge to the outside with a fan in it and a small computerized thermostat that controlls the fan/vent door.

    8. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So just put your stuff in the garage or whatever during winter. That's what I do.

    9. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Usually the problem is maintaining humidity with the cold, dry air. The easiest way to make it work would be to run antifreeze (if you can get enough glycol in solution!) between a heat exchanger in both places. You would want to move the water prety fast, but you would eliminate the compressor.

      For your computer... don't you WANT the extra heat in the room?

    10. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by mdielmann · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have something like this in my newly purchased home, and it's totally passive. Essentially, it's an insulated room in the basement with a vent near the ceiling to the outside. Warmer air escapes through the vent (and cooler air may seep in that way, too), and the temperature stays low. When the rest of my basment is around 18 degrees C, this rooms is no more than 8 degrees C in the summer and can get as low as ~0 degrees C in the winter. I keep thinking I should get a system set up to help bleed warm air out of there faster. Given where I live, this could operate well within safe cooling ranges for food for half the year (maybe longer, depending on how fast it heats up). For foods that are less sensitive (whole fruits and vegetables, things that just taste better cool) this is already a full-year solution.

      Easiest way to make this active is 2 thermostats (one that supports A/C), maybe a couple of electric switches, and a fan. When the air outside is lower than the target temperature (heat setting) and the air inside is higher (cool setting), allow the fan to run. If wiring in series isn't allowed (if the type of thermostat can't support 120V AC), use switches that are turned on when the thermostat tells it to. Sounds like a fun project...

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    11. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by El · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've often wondered this myself. Why are refrigerator coils mounted on the back of the refrigerator, instead of outside? Why do we use upright refrigerators instead of chest style, which don't get filled with hot air everytime you open the door? Why do people drive SUVs that get 16MPG and are less safe (due to their higher center of gravity) than a hybrid which costs less and gets 50MPG? Why doesn't anybody install ground source thermal heating/air conditioning, instead of using outside air as a heat sink (ground stays at about 68 degrees year round, outside air is always hotter when you want to cool and cooler when you want to heat.)

      The only answer I can think of is that the average consumer is an idiot! Most people would rather save $1 today than $10 over the next 20 years. (Oh, and if you installed the refrigerator coils outside, you would have to pay to have it installed by an A/C professional.)

      --

      "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

    12. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by hawkbug · · Score: 1

      That sounds like a nice room - where do you live? I think it would be a great project to keep it temp controlled using outside air, and save you tons of cash in the process over the years.

    13. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by core+plexus · · Score: 1
      Where I used to live, I would agree, but I am now part of a member-owner co-op (yeah, commie), so any profits gets put back in for infrastructure, capital credits, and refunds. Yes, I actually get a check from my member-owner telephone co-op, also (and very cheap, fast DSL!). I urge everyone to shrug off the corporate yoke of energy oppression and form a member-owned co-operative!

      -cp-

      President Bush to Liberate Alaska

    14. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 1
      You would need longer tubes to the condensor (heat exchanger in the back of the frig) and additional refrigerant to fill the tubes. And it would take a professional to install it.

      If you ever wanted to move the frig it would be a pain.

      The frig would steal heat from your house and send it outside everytime you opened the door (not good in a climate with cold outdoors).

      You would have to keep the outdoor condensor relatively clean.

      You may need a refrigerant pump depending on your specific installation.

      It's just not done and you should be penalized for thinking outside the box.

    15. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by bluGill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mount the coils outside how? Paying some tech $500 to install a $1200 fridge, instead of pluging in a simple factory built all in one system for $800? False ecconomices in many cases, if you consider all the energy needed to make and install that more complex system.

      Chest freezers exist are dangerious, kids do fall into them and die if nobody discovers it. Sure you are strong enough to lift the lid from the inside, but little kids are not.

      Lets see that Hybred car tow my boat out of the lake. Now if those hybreds where cheap enough that a person could afford to own both, and use whichever is best you would be right. However most people cannot afford (don't forget the extra storage space needed) that many more vechicals. So they compromise, the SUV can tow the boat and get to work, so they buy both. I also assume you have not tried to make a long road trip in a hybred car, they are not comforatble, while the SUV is comfortable and if you figure passanger mile getting close to 60. (IIRC Airplanes get ~40)

      Have you looked at the cost of a ground source heat pump? 6 times the cost of a regular furnance. How are you going to pay for it? Sure they are better, but are they really that much better? You have to be positive you will live in one spot for 20 years to make it worth while, and then get lucky in getting a model that doesn't break down too often. I looked at putting on in, even doing work myself I couldn't justify the cost. Thats assuming you get it installed correctly, around here there are a few systems that don't work so good because they didn't get far enough below the frost line and end up no better than an air source heat pump. (read doesn't work when the air temp is below 0F)

      Maybe the average person is an idiot, but even still things do not work out near as well as you say. Which of the above have you done? Resteraunts normally have coils on the roof, so you could find someone to install it for you if you really belived what you said. Do you have a chest fride taking up room in your kitchen, or do you also have a normal upright model? Is your heat from a ground source heat pump?

      Honestly the only thing that makes sense for anyone is the Hybred car. Even then a diesel will beat it in some cases. My Geo Metro gets nearly as good milage, and is a lot less complex. I ran the numbers many times before a change in jobs made it worthwhile, and even then I just barely gain in the long run. My truck gets 21 mpg though. Many SUVs get similear.

    16. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Why...Why...Why...Why...

      Why do people drive on parkways and park on driveways?
      Why do people wear a 'pair of pants', but just one bra?
      Why is cargo sent by boat, but shipments are sent by truck?
      Why is common sense rare?

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    17. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by ebrandsberg · · Score: 1

      So you are willing to spend extra to install something to let out the HEAT in the middle of the winter, when instead you could save money on your heating bill by staying the way it is?

      I, however, would have liked to make use of such a system to cool my house in the summer by using my pool as a heat sink, thus warming it up, and making it nicer to swim. same ideas though, but on a different scale.

    18. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by El · · Score: 1

      You are correct, saving energy in the long run costs you more up front. And if you are towing trailers or boats, you actually need a vehicle that gets poor mileage. Let's do a quick survey -- what percentage of huge SUVs even have a tow ball mounted in the back? 10%? 20%? 95% of the SUVs I see are being driven daily to work by a single person, not towing or carrying 7 passengers. Oh, I have a Honda Civic Hybrid which gets over 50MPG, and a Subaru Forester which gets about 25MPG. They are both useless for towing. The Civic is more comfortable to drive (rear seat passengers may be more comfortable in an SUV). (I bought the Forester back when I needed to get up a quarter mile poorly maintained gravel road.) There is only one non-hybrid that gets simular mileage to a Honda or Toyota hybrid -- the Volkswagen GTI diesel. I haven't driven one, but I suspect the experience isn't too much fun. Driving the Honda hybrid is indistinguishable from driving a regular Honda (except that it shuts the engine off when you take it out of gear, which takes some getting used to).

      No, I don't have a chest refrigerator with outside coils, because the house (or at least the kitchen) would need to be designed around it. I have considered building one in when designing my own house, but I'll probably never get around to actually doing it. Oh, and you use counterbalances to make lifting the lid easy enough for anyone.

      Ground source heat pumps are not for everyone. If done correctly they also require a non-trivial amount of acreage to use as a heat sink, and at least $10,000 to drill the wells. Unfortunately, your "6 times the cost" and "must stay in house for 20 years to be cost effective" analysis is pretty accurate. Nevertheless, I am considering it as an option when I build my house (if I can afford it).

      --

      "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

    19. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I think you're just trying to be funny.

      There are good reasons for everything you list, just like your parent post.

      I agree that people often make the mistake of short term savings over long term. It's a serious problem with appliances.

      Your examples aren't very good, except SUVs. Even SUV owners know how it's a stupid fad. Running coils outside it crazy. Ground sink is also far more complex than you seem to think. Hell, my ground isn't 68 degrees. When I used to live up north, we had a freezer in an unheated building. We kept extra soda on an outside wall. Blah, blah, blah.

      A better examples is front loading washing machines.

      Back to the off topic point of outside air. The answer is maintanace. Sometimes I wonder if anyone here has every been a sysadmin. Pulling outside air has dozens of dangers. Condensation, leaves, and snow for example. I've done it.

      We cooled a high power HF amplifier with outside air in Antarctica. It didn't have to run 24/7, so someone could check before power up. We didn't need it in bad weather.

    20. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      I live on the Canadian Prairies, a small way outside of what passes for a big city in Canada. Although we still have the usual appliances, it saves us money right now by allowing us to keep things that we usually would leave on the counter in a cold place, like fruit and bread, thus reducing spoilage.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    21. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by bluGill · · Score: 1

      Towing the boat, driving on gravel roads. Ever notice how most the SUV ads say "kids" in them? Front seats in cars are fine, but I've never been comfortable in the backseat of ANY car, and haven't been since I was 15. (And I still had a lot of growth left at that age, girls who mature fast will run into problems sooner) SUVs, vans, and minivans are the only cars I know of that I would want to sit in for long pierods of time.

      Look closely at those SUVs, most that I've seen have 2 inch receivers, and the owner keeps the rest of the hitch elsewhere expect when towing. So you wouldn't see the hitch, except in the cases when it is actually towing, maybe 5% of the time. The other 95% of the time the hitch is in storage, while the owner drives to work.

      Everyone I know with VW TDI cars have been very happy with them. I think you would be too if you would try it.

      A counterbalance won't help the two year old who climbs into a freezer and can't reach the top after if falls on him. Most 2 year olds know how to drag a bench to the freezer and open the lid. Crawling in isn't hard believe, though it is more a case of falling in once they get over the top. Combine that will all the floor space it takes, and how hard it is to organize anything, and I think it is a foolish option. OTOH it would be a good idea to find a conventional fridge with better insulation, that would save a lot, in the end perhaps more than a normal chest freezer.

      I did the analysis to convert my house to a ground source heat pump. Nobody could convince me that everything would last 20 years. Equipment breaks, wells go dry, and so on... Still I know of rich people who have put those systems in, and got their yearly HVAC bills to about $100/year! That for a 3000 sq foot mansion. The guy in question owns a SIP (Structural insulated panel) company and used the best materials he could find to show off what his company could do.

    22. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by ramk13 · · Score: 1

      It's a good idea, but it's basically a cost issue. Capital costs for the type of system you are talking about large. On top of that the system has to be designed specifically for the location you are at. Also all the components of the system (your fridge, PC, air conditioner, any thing that puts out heat) would have to be designed into this larger heat transport system.

      Basically unless you are in area where energy requirements are tight (i.e. space shuttle/station) or somewhere with massive energy costs (large factories/buildings), you don't run different heating and cooling lines over the place. It's just not cost effective.

      It would be a neat do-it-yourself project, but there's not much drive for development of consumer level systems like this. Not to say there aren't products; I'm sure there are.

    23. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by core+plexus · · Score: 1
      I have to disagree.

      Consider this: a) the location of the fridge is usually static, as are the locations of the sink, the stove, and other appliances. You (or your SO) will not be rearranging them as if they were a couch, wall art, or other similar item. b) long-term and resale value. If you can demonstrate that your smart home saves $1800/year in energy, then the small initial cost is irrelevant. In fact, my boxes are in roughly the same location they were 3 years ago, or their predecessors anyway.

      I believe you may be on to something in that people just want to plug something in, but in my area, people are also interested in new ideas and progress. I think I give it a look.

      -cp-

    24. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by ottawanker · · Score: 1

      I live in Canada, and I do that.. In the winter, the computer sucks air from outside, in the summer, from the A/C. Check out these bad pictures of my simple setup (and take down the page at the same time):

      Pictures

    25. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by anubi · · Score: 1
      I still do not understand why freon-water heat exchangers never caught on with pool owners.

      Air conditioning owners are stuck with this big noisy box outside containing a monstrous fan and freon compressor. It appeared to be minimal work to me to concentrically place a copper pipe into a larger piece of PVC pipe, and route the pool water through it. You have to run the pool pump so many hours a day to circulate and filter the water so the water stays clean. So why not heat it up a bit too? I would much rather have the heat in the pool than in the house, and all it would take is a short length ( twenty feet max, ten feet each way ) of say 1/2" copper tubing placed inside the 2" or so PVC pipe carrying the circulating pool water. Run the direction counterflow, so that the exiting condensed liquid freon encounters the coldest newly incoming water and the hottest vapor freon sees the warmer exiting stream of water.

      Just run the pool pump concurrently with the air conditioning compressor. Presto, heat transferred from house air, to freon, to pool water.

      No big noisy fan. No big box. Everything nice, neat, tucked away. You would never even see what made this thing work unless you really looked for it.

      But I don't see this. Why?

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    26. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by pwarf · · Score: 1

      People drive SUVs because they like them more, not because they aren't capable of analyzing a financial decision. (I don't like SUVs, either because I can't see over/around them while driving; however, I can understand how the extra space and being able to see around and over other drivers could have an appeal.)

      For the other questions, you need to compare long-term cost-savings against either market returns or current borrowing rates. I ran a quick scenario assuming a conservative 7% return on investment (or savings from paying off debt). You have to save $2 for every $1 of initial investment over twenty years to come out ahead. Significantly more if your rate of return is higher. Also, how do maintenance for things like hybrid cars, heat sinks, and refrigerator coils outside the house compare to conventional cars and conventional heat and cooling?

      Some of the alternatives you listed still make sense, but they are much less compelling when you factor in return on other investments, enjoyment of less efficient alternatives, overall hassle, and the preference for immediate gratification (irrational, but understandable: "life is uncertain - eat dessert first").

    27. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because then everyone would need a pool? Duh.

    28. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by fifedrum · · Score: 1

      I have a room like this too, it's about 6x6 with massively insulated walls and door, a vent to the outside, sounds the same anyway.

      We store all sorts of things in it from canned goods to fresh veggies and fruit to wine and beer. We have yet to store milk or meat because of the time we left the light on... a thermos can keep things cold, or hot, eh.

      The other thing we have is a shaft that runs from the basement to the crawl space attic, interrupted by firewall that is pierced with pipes for the sewage system and power lines.

      The same thing could be done to heat the home in the winter. 2 radiators, 2 hoses. One radiator in the basement, one in the attic. 2 termostats, one in the attic, one in the basement. When the furnace is active, and the thermo in the attic is warmer than the basement, pump the coolant through the radiators and pump heat from the attic. Might even work with gravity if the temperature difference is high enough...

    29. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's just the justification I needed. Thanks.

    30. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by genericacct · · Score: 1

      Sounds great. This is in the basement, though, and you have to go down there for your bread and fruit? That is sadly inconvenient, or it would be almost perfect. I was thinking of putting the refrigerator in such a room (but at ground level) to save energy to run the fridge, especially if the fridge door could be in the kitchen. A pantry or mudroom would be perfect... just modify the existing doorway and stick the fridge there. I suppose if the fridge is in there giving off heat, though, I'd need another room below it in the basement for semi-perishables that don't need full refridgeration, like the bread and fruit. The below-grade stuff is basically a form of geothermal cooling. Great idea!

    31. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      It's more than geothermal, the frost line is 4 ft. while the floor is 6 or 7 ft. below grade. this wouldn't account for near-freezing temperatures in the winter, nor would it account for the fluctuations of about 3 degrees I see between a cold winter day and a warm winter day. And it is sadly too responsive to this. That's another reason I'd like to make it active - it would make it easier to achieve colder temperatures by reducing the amount that geothermal effects are causing this.

      As for location, it is one staircase away from the kitchen and, given my sedentary lifestyle, is one of the few things keeping me from having a heart attack in the next 10 years...

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    32. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by Suidae · · Score: 1

      Why do people drive SUVs that get 16MPG and are less safe (due to their higher center of gravity) than a hybrid which costs less and gets 50MPG?

      Because I can't take 3 kids to the grocery store in a car that only has two seats?

      I'd love to have a hybrid, but nobody makes one that seats 7 people and has room for groceries.

      Make a hybrid minivan and I'll buy it. Course, then people will bitch when they see me driving this big beast to work all by myself. 'Why doesn't he get a little hybrid to go to work' they'll say.

    33. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by El · · Score: 1

      Ford should be coming out with a hybrid SUV in 2005. Yes, a hybrid minivan is a great idea. I beleive Toyota is considering hybrid options for all their vehicles, so hybrid whatevers should eventually be available.

      Oh, and a Civic Hybrid works fine for taking 3 kids to the grocery store, although I usually use the Subaru for trips to Costco (slightly more cargo space.)

      --

      "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

    34. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      You're already doing that by paying for electricity to keep the device cool. If instead you can use a passive heat/cooling sink, you can indeed save money. That heat energy lost to keep your fridge cold is lost no matter what.

    35. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
      It is unfortunate that refrigeration systems are a pain in the ass to maintain. You can actually take your normal kitchen refrigerator, take all the interesting parts out of the bottom of it, and move it outside. Aside from the equipment needed to evacuate and recharge the system you need only a flaring tool, some tubing, and some flare nuts, plus some fittings. This is enough stuff to do a pro-quality job. But, dealing with refrigerant is a PITA.

      As for the hybrid towing your boat out of the lake, Dodge did make a hybrid durango but it cost $85,000. It's not all that much more expensive to build a SUV than an econobox (though there's certainly more steel in it, that's a small percentage of the total cost, even given forming it) but that's what they have declared people will have to pay for their vehicles. Obviously a hybrid costs a lot more than a regular car but the prices of SUVs are artificially inflated in any case. There are also assorted diesel-hybrids from motorcycles ($5,000, top speed 80 mph, ~150mpg) to city buses. Hybrids are definitely something we will be seeing a whole lot more of very soon.

      Anyway real SUVs get a lot worse than 21mpg. Maybe the CRV which is based on the accord gets 21 or 25 or something, but the big ones get like 17 on the freeway. They're evil right to the core. I sure hope that small turbo diesels become as popular as they ought to, since you can run them on so many different fuels.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    36. Re:Cooling Things with Outside Air? by bluGill · · Score: 1

      There are many different models of SUVs, some get 25 mpg, some 12.

      Hybred vechicals do better in city stop and go driving. They do worse on the hiway. A good modern tranmission system is a lot more efficant than a generate, moter, and battery system, a fact that you cannot get around. Now there is the one advantage that engines tuned to run at one and only one RPM are more efficant, but it isn't enough to make up the extra costs of the rest of the system for hiway driving.

  5. So, by 'Nano-Lightning' you mean 'electricity'? by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 3, Funny

    (see subject.)

    --

    There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
  6. Bah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wake me up when they solve the Egress/Lanksky condensate problem. This will never be practical if they cannot get by that since carbon will slowly adhere to the surface of the processors.

  7. dunno about that but... by WormholeFiend · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the article starts out by overhyping the technology and ends with cautious optimism with quotes from someone working on it.

    at this point in time, this sounds to me as cool as reading an article about teaching bees to flap their wings inside my case to cool the circuits down.

    1. Re:dunno about that but... by Biege · · Score: 1
      ... teaching bees to flap their wings inside my case to cool the circuits down.

      You do not need them to teach that, they will probably organize it themselves after having nested inside the case.

  8. Hmmm... Maybe some problems here. by CyberVenom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As I read it, basically, the air is ionized by electrodes, and the ionized air is then pulled across the heat sink via electric charge. This happens to be the same concept as used in the "Ion Air Purifiers" that are advertised on TV. This is supposedly more efficient because the airflow is induced along the surface of the heatsink directly instead of the brute-force method of a fan where the air is thrown at the heatsink en masse and it is hoped that it diplaces the hot air already there. Kinda makes me wonder how this would work in a real-world environment... small particles like dust, pollen, and smoke are attracted to the ionized surfaces (this is how the air purifiers work), so in a place like Southern California, I would imagine that the dust buildup on the heatsink would be much worse with this method than a fan... And dust buildup on a heatsink is not only an insulator, but in the case of the ionized airflow heatsink, it may actually render the ionization process useless, and the air will cease to flow, creating not only an insulated heatsink, but dead air over it.

  9. But is it quiet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Won't this system produce nanothunder?

    1. Re:But is it quiet? by AtariEric · · Score: 1

      Probably. But only gnats and fleas will be able to hear it.

      --
      Don't trust any concentration of power.
  10. I have been working on this by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

    here in my Phoenix, Arizona lab for quite some time but I've been rather disapointed with the results.

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    1. Re:I have been working on this by pbox · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it might work for your convection oven!

      --
      Code poet, espresso fiend, starter upper.
  11. Re:your sig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And those who can't consult, are managers.

  12. Other important features by AllenChristopher · · Score: 2, Informative
    Upright refrigerators allow one to stare and gape at the food inside. "I can't believe I jut went shopping and there's nothing good to eat."

    More reasonably, short people, old people, and children cannot reach into a chest refrigerator easily. A chest refrigerator takes up twice as much precious floor space. A chest refrigerator is the sort in which a child can be easily trapped.

    If you really want to save cold air in a refrigerator, produce one with a second clear door inside. This would keep all the safety and convenience features of an upright fridge, and remove the major cause of air loss, which is choosing what to take out.

    1. Re:Other important features by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 1

      Why install a second door if you could use one clear door? (like those refrigerators in stores?)

    2. Re:Other important features by Tree131 · · Score: 1

      A clear door will "sweat" with condensation on the inside as well as the outside, which would make it completely useless.

      One way to avoid it though is to install a dehumidifier on both sides, but then you run into more equipment, making it a more complex and costly system, just to have a clear door. Why not make it childproof instead?

    3. Re:Other important features by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
      The clear door only sweats when you open it, because the condensation on the inside of the refrigerator occurs generally near the evaporator, and then the water runs down the inside of the enclosure and either into a catch pan which sits next to the compressor and motor, or into a drain tube which exits typically through the floor. Then you open the door and the air temperature rises sharply above its temperature as it moves and voila.

      How about a refrigerator filled with clear bins that slide out on rollers? They can hold the cold air in, and they can have a drip release in the bottom that runs moisture out the back and down to the pan or drain as per usual.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  13. Consarnit. by _aa_ · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I was going to buy a couple of those Bathroom Ionic Breezes, take them apart, and place them throughout my computer case and then boast the first "Ionic Cooled" case. I seriously think there's a market for them in PC cooling. They don't throughput much air, and they need constant cleaning, but they are absolutly silent, no moving parts, and low on energy. Not to mention that they clean the air of dust particles and whatnot, helping to keep your computer, and work environment clean. SharperImage should come out with a PC Case.

    1. Re:Consarnit. by smack_attack · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The reason no one has replaced their fans with Ionic Breezes is because they move air slowly and require constant cleaning. They simply don't remove heat from the case fast enough. You even said so yourself: "They don't throughput much air, and they need constant cleaning,"

      --

      Hammer of Truth
  14. It's NOT wasted energy by narftrek · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Many people ask your question (and several in this thread second it) and my default answer each time is this: In the winter you have to heat your home right? So let your fridge run and dump heat into the room-It's less work for your heating unit to do. If the heat were dumped outside, then your heater is still gonna be running but now just a little harder. I use this in practice as a matter of fact. I have 2 Athlon systems in my 10x12 computer room. They both sit on the floor with the sides open and they run 24/7. When it's cold I just shut the room up and it will be a good 10deg warmer than the rest of the house in the morning when I get up. Perfect for running down my chilly hallway to sit & read /. unitl I wake up! It's actually so efficient that I have totally blocked off the floor vent in this room to send the heat to a less balanced part of the house. Now when summer comes that'll be a different story but for now, my PC's heat (and fridge's) IS FAR FROM WASTED!

  15. There are better ways to move heat downhill by Spamalamadingdong · · Score: 1

    You'd be better off with a heat pipe than a glycol loop. Not only would you need only one tube, but the effective conductivity would be much higher and you'd have zero pumping power requirements.

    --
    Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
  16. Re:Hmmm... Maybe some problems here. by _aa_ · · Score: 1

    I agree, I don't think this technology is applicable for cooling directly on the chip. However, this Ionic Breeze technology i think would be perfect for cases.

  17. Energy Costs by core+plexus · · Score: 1
    We aren't talking about just the Northern Tier states of the U.S. but also Canada, Northern Europe, and lots of other places. I know that many villages have very high power rates, due in part to the fact that the entire Village is powered from a diesel generator farm. I currently (no pun intended) enjoy relatively cheap energy rates, but I see the day when I shall either pay for infrastructure, on way or another, to deliver more coal, natural gas, or nuclear power, or cut down. Hey, I lived in a Tipi for a year, and can say from experience that there are sacrifices to be made in choosing that route.

    -cp-

    Alaska Village invited to test cheap, clean nuclear power

  18. Re:Hmmm... Maybe some problems here. by Muhammar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The stationary layer on the surface of heatsink is the problem, which they try to fix with their invention.

    Instead of playing with a high frequency/high voltage surface of the heat sink, I am thinking about a small but high velocity air fan and a dimple-patterned heat sink surface for maximum turbulence. I believe it is possible to generate air vortex over a small surface even with a modest power supply fan. Alternatively, I would use a piezo crystal vibrating the heat sink surface in an (unaudible) ultrasonic frequency for the same effect.

    --
    I doubt that we will ever figure out - and I suspect that even if we did figure out we couldn't do much about it
  19. Filters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good filters, though. Perhaps they'd solve the problem with dust stuck on the cooling unit proposed in this article... if the case is well sealed, and the major air inputs have ionic breeze dust filters on them....

  20. Re: double-pane the door by pwarf · · Score: 1

    Double-paning the door (with either a vacuum or a closed dry gas between the two panes) would eliminate most of the condensation problems.

    I guess you would have some condensation from warmer air that contacts the interior surface when the door is open, but my intuition is that this would be minimal even with glass and any remaining condenstaion problem could be eliminated by using a material with a lower heat conductivity than glass or coating the glass with a no-fog coating.

    Actually, I am surprised more grocery stores don't double pane the glass in the freezer cases. Maybe energy lost to air escaping overshadows energy lost through thermal conduction because customers open the doors so often.

    Basically, childproofing a chest freezer/fridge is problematic and the basic design is less convenient for most people as stated before.

  21. Short-circuit? by dragonfly28 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So you would want to make a bunch of ions inside your computer, don't get me wrong but would'nt you have some electrical problems then.

    When I recenty installed some new memory, it came with a nice static electricity warning. So now you would want to make a gas-cloud of ions inside your computer, if static electricity can kill your components doesn't that mean that ions can too?

    Ok, as long as the system is running the ions are trapped between all those electrodes, but where to these ions go when you switch off the power?

    Better have some capacitators ready......

    1. Re:Short-circuit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      "if static electricity can kill your components doesn't that mean that ions can too"

      Not really. It's not the static charge that kills components, it's the sudden discharge when you zap it. That's a lot of current going through some mighty small IC features, and if you calculate the current density, that's the killer.

  22. Re:your sig by clarkcox3 · · Score: 1

    And those who can't manage ... are still managers.

    --
    There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
  23. Re:Hmmm... Maybe some problems here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    However, this Ionic Breeze technology i think would be perfect for cases.

    I inherited an ionic breeze 4 years ago and have had it running in the living room ever since.

    You would not want one of these inside your case. The ionizing makes the grime adhere not just to the collection blades, but also to the interior and exterior surfaces of the machine. It is sticky and takes detergent or alcohol to remove. (I had originally heard this only happened if it processed lots of smoke, cigarette tars etc. - I am a strict non-smoker though.)

    Consider all the dust that already accumulates inside cases, and imagine if it stuck to everything rather than just falling to the bottom inert.

  24. Re:Cooling Things with [pool water] by genericacct · · Score: 1

    If the water heating was significant, then the pool would be hotter on the days that you want to cool off in it. That would suck. But swimming pools have a lot of thermal "inertia", so maybe it wouldn't affect the water too much...

  25. closed system perhaps by DumbSwede · · Score: 1
    I imagine it would have to be a closed air exchange system (though the article doesn't say), the returning air would still have to be cooled by other means - passive, adiobatic, pizoelectric, even liquid (though no longer right up against the processor).

    --
    Letter To Iran