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Fish with Limbs

kpogoda writes "American scientists have unearthed the world's oldest arm bone, a 365-million-year-old fossil that provides key evidence that fish used limbs in water well before animals used them to climb up on land."

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  1. Re:Eugenics? Pull the other one... by Tyreth · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    First of all, I don't believe any of those things are good. You mistook me for a darwinist it seems.

    Second of all:

    If you're so messed up as to believe that "another race is evlutionarily inferior"

    If you assume darwinism, then it would be irrational to suppose that one human race is not inferior or superior to another. So what the heck has that got to do with being 'messed up'? It's just pure logic, and the necessary conclusion of darwinism.

    Third of all, if I assume darwinism, then what do I care if you don't like the conclusions I draw from evolution? If we are all the product of chance, then there is no good or evil. What I'm saying is there are no morals given darwinism. Darwin himself said,
    With me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind? (Darwin's letter to William Graham Down, dated July 3, 1881, in The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin Including and Autobiographical Chapter, ed. Francis Darwin, 2 vols. (London: John Murry, Albermarle Street, 1887), 1:315-316)

    So it's not a question of whether your arguments are reasonable or not. It's a question of whether it's worth me (if we assume I'm a darwinist) paying attention to them. What do I care if you don't like me? If I can fool you into thinking I'm your friend, then betray you and come out on top, then I have done no 'evil', for such does not exist. If you try to appeal to my emotions, what makes your conclusions any more trustworthy than mine, since we are both descended from lower animals? To suppose that Darwinism doesn't lead to racism is the ultimate in willful blindness. You absolutely, necessarily, have to be racist to be a Darwinist. Darwinism does not say which race is better - but at some point you have to say "this group is more worthy of survival than that group". You cannot have every group survive, because some must fail.

    Yet this also brings up the question of care. Just because one accepts darwinism does not mean that they automatically think it is important to maintain evolution and the progress of the species. Why do I need to see the progression of my species? I won't be around to enjoy the greater evolution. So I may reasonably conclude that the destruction of my own race for my own greed and pleasure is better than any altruistic sacrifice for the good of future generations. Of course, I may not. The point is that there is no good or evil, and that we can't trust the convictions of our mind if we assume Darwinism.

  2. Re:Eugenics? Pull the other one... by Tyreth · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    Well, I'm glad you see my point. Your use of the word "right" in "society has an equal right to punish you for such actions" is meaningless. They have no "right" to do so, nor any reason to justify. There is just meaningless events that happen. The fact that we feel certain things are good and bad under a naturalistic worldview can only be explained in terms of their ability to increase our chances of survival. Therefore we can have no trust in our faculties to determine logic or truth, since our mind would not be 'designed' for such things. Instead, our mind would be geared towards greater survival - and logic is meaningless. What is meaningful is a lie or a truth that increases our chances of survival and reproduction. For all we know our mind could be considering certain lies as truth because that helped us survive. An example being a man who believes that lions should be petted, but the best way to pet them is to run away at breakneck speed. His reasoning is nonsensical, but it increases his chances of survival nonetheless.

    Therefore if darwinism is true, we cannot trust our minds to determine that it is true. It defeats itself.

  3. Re:Darwinism is NOT A RELIGION! by Tyreth · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    First of all, you do not understand the theory of evolution AND you use "darwinist" in a way that does not reflect its true meaning. Darwinist is in opposotion to Lamarckist, who was an evolutionary theory from before Darwin that postulated that the evolution of species was the result of adaptation made by members of the species in their life times (to Lamarck, if giraffes had long necks it was because proto-giraffes had had to stretch their necks to get to high branches and so their descendants had longer necks). Darwin's theory was that natural selection of mutants was what shaped evolution.

    And how was this something I didn't know? I use the term "Darwinist" as opposed to "evolutionist", because darwinist makes it clear I am talking about that brand of evolution which states that all life descends from a common simple single celled lifeform, and that the method through which this occurred was natural selection of mutations.

    If you assume darwinism, then it would be irrational to suppose that one human race is not inferior or superior to another.

    Well, that might be what the grand wizard at your "racial pride" rally told you, but that is completly wrong.

    How witty of you. Now on to your flawed reasoning...

    If I take an Inuit and a Massai and switch them, they'll both be fucked. Because one is from a race that has adapted to the artic climate and the other to the savannah. Wich is the inferior one? The one that can survive in a cold hostile land or the one that can survive in a hot hostile land?

    What about if we took one human who could survive well in both environments and compare him to either one of these people? By your reasoning we'd then have to conclude that he's superior. You neglect to address the problem of other flaws which are not so easily measured, nor so easily interchanged. Take, for example, a mutation which results in internal bleeding after the softest blows. Would you consider that person to be superior or inferior to another who did not have it in that specific area?

    If we take your intention with that argument to its conclusions we can then say that a single bacteria is not inferior or superior to a human. Or that if we switch places of a fish swimming deep underwater with a human walking in a dry desert, that since they would both die that they are 'equal'?

    *If* you agree that one living thing can be considered superior or inferior to another (eg, a human vs a rat), then you cannot reasonably draw a line where such comparisons of superiority should end. And if no line can be drawn, then out of any two given humans, one is superior to the other - even if such superiority cannot be measured. If, however, you disagree and say that a human and a rat are equal, then I will be content to consider you either a madman (or woman) or one who is so blind he/she will accept any proposition, no matter how absurd, to defend a lie.

    It is my belief that humans will be able to survive in more circumstances, with greater superiority, and achieve more, than rats ever could. If humans and rats were to "wage war" or strive against each other for limitted resources, that my money would be on the humans. And please don't mention the plague - since it is equally possible that humans could carry a disease fatal to rats. I would say humans are superior to rats.

    Races are not inferior or superior in an absolute sense, they are better adapted to specific situations.

    Yes, and some creatures are more capable of surviving in more circumstances with greater results than others. Equality among living things is nonexistent. Is an adult equal with a child? Is a banana equal to a pear?

    If we are all the product of chance, then there is no good or evil.

    Ah, yes, you're the type of person for whom the only reason not to hurt other people is the fear of hell.

    So clearly