Slashdot Mirror


The Pure Software Act of 2006

lurker412 writes "The MIT Technology Review features a proposal by Simson Garfinkel to provide honest labels on software in the same way that the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 forced manufacturers of foods and drugs to divulge the contents of their products. The proposal targets adware, spyware and other unsavory practices. It suggests that by requiring software manufacturers to include clear icons for each nasty behavior--rather than hide the disclosures in seldom read or understood click-through SLAs--end users will be better protected. Garfinkel specifically lists eight types of sneaky behavior, but the list is not meant to be exhaustive."

40 of 261 comments (clear)

  1. The 'Evil' Bit by plover · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I can hear the software vendors right now. "Oh, sure, I'm going to label my software as 'pop-up', that'll bring in the customers, oh, yeah!" More likely, they'll fight it on the grounds of anyone who ever made or makes use of the Yes/No dialog box -- "That's a pop-up, too, make them label their software." Totally meaningless.

    Anyway, did anyone else read this and think immediately of the Evil Bit? The whole thing has got to be a joke, right?

    --
    John
    1. Re:The 'Evil' Bit by Allen+Zadr · · Score: 3, Funny
      Wow, every single Microsoft application I've seen qualifies under at least ONE of these icons:

      Hook, Modify, Remote Control, Self-Updates and even Stuck.

      --
      Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
    2. Re:The 'Evil' Bit by badasscat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can hear the software vendors right now. "Oh, sure, I'm going to label my software as 'pop-up', that'll bring in the customers, oh, yeah!" More likely, they'll fight it on the grounds of anyone who ever made or makes use of the Yes/No dialog box -- "That's a pop-up, too, make them label their software." Totally meaningless.

      Oh, I don't know. You could have said the same thing about food labels, but the fact is a lot of the food industry actually wanted them. I would think the same about this. Honest software vendors (which is still the majority of the industry), I would think would jump at the chance to be part of something like this, because it would help distinguish why their software is better than the shyster spamware and adware companies' stuff. I mean what if on the one hand you have Real with a whole bunch of scary icons, and on the other you have Apple with only one or two for QuickTime/iTunes? If I were Apple I'd be very happy about this. That's just one example; the easiest that came to mind. In every category you'd have companies on both sides of the issue, depending on who would benefit; it just depends on who's got the most lobbying power in each specific case.

      And btw, to respond to another early comment, I too wondered initially what a certain musical duo was doing putting forth software regulation recommendations when I first read the posting.

    3. Re:The 'Evil' Bit by plover · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hahahaha -- I read your comment and saw the last icon as "Sucks". It worked for me...

      --
      John
    4. Re:The 'Evil' Bit by MoonBuggy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This will help with the companies like Limewire who are pretty much legit but morally questionable, which is good.

      Unfortunately, however, the worst spyware/malware I've seen, the stuff that really grinds computers into the ground and makes people call me to fix their computer that 'just broke' is porn browser bars, porn autodialers etc. These are the kind of companies who are just below the bar of complying to the law but still a little way above outright theft. The legislation is a good idea, but what it'll mean is that there's less spyware out there and what does stay active will be all the worse and better hidden too.

    5. Re:The 'Evil' Bit by TALlama · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The solution to this is a 'Clean' icon. If the software has it, it by definition does not have any of the behaviors denoted by the other icons. Trademark all the icons, and make sure that people can only use the 'Clean' icon if the code is verifiably clean (which you can pay to have done for you).

      --

      - The Amazina Llama

    6. Re:The 'Evil' Bit by SnappleMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah this is stupid. Basically people who write this crap-ware would have to have a label that says, in effect: "This software will do something you do not want it to. It will annoy you and may expose personal information. Do yourself a favor and do not install it."

      Plus this is yet another American idea. The Internet is bigger than America. American laws would only protect people from software written in America. What about all the crap-ware that gets written elsewhere?

      Bottom line: I give this idea 9.5 out of 10 stupids.

      --
      Be happy. Nothing else matters.
  2. The sound of silence by pudding7 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Anyone see the name as "Simon and Garfunkle"?

    I'll go back to work now...

    1. Re:The sound of silence by Prince+Vegeta+SSJ4 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hello Clippy, my old friend,

      I've come to talk with you again,

      Because a exploit softly creeping,

      Left its worms while I was sleeping,

      And the vision that was planted in my brain

      Still remains

      Within the sound of silence.

    2. Re:The sound of silence by phpm0nkey · · Score: 3, Funny

      The dude even looks like Simon & Garfunkel!

    3. Re:The sound of silence by Fnkmaster · · Score: 4, Insightful
      My friends and I have a theory about Simpson - his career as a technology writer and pundit is based primarily on the Memorable Name principle (also known as the "American McGee principle"). This phenomenon seems particularly common in the tech industry.


      American McGee is, in my opinion, an emblematic case of this phenomenon. Why was his game called "American McGee's A.L.I.C.E."? Do you ever hear about "John Smith's BullshitGame 2003"? I think not (we won't get into whether or not the game here sucked, which I believe everybody can agree with). Why was Mr. McGee a speaker at so many industry conventions and trade shows? Was it because of his amazing intellect and insights? His colorful lively presentation style? The quality of his work in the gaming industry? No, it's because his fucking name is "American McGee".


      Simpson Garfinkel is a pretty good tech writer. Certainly a lot more knowledgeable than some of the idjits out there. But first and foremost, his success and the attention he gets is because his name is eminently brandable and memorable due to its remarkable resemblence to "Simon and Garfunkle". This works at a subconscious level, from what I've observed, even when people don't immediately note the resemblence of his name - they note what a strange name it is, and they always seem to remember it later if they encounter it again.


      I won't bother getting to all the other examples of this phenomenon at work - some of them are people I know personally who are great people but owe much of their success to this kind of clever branding ("Jennifer 8. Lee" anyone?). The power of this phenomenon is undeniable. We may all sit around and think we are above this kind of low-level marketing manipulation of our brains, but we need to face the facts: we are being manipulated by the Strange Name Mafia into their sick and twisted view of the technology industry.


      Boycott weird-named pundits. Err. Or something.

    4. Re:The sound of silence by brandond1976 · · Score: 5, Funny

      In that case I think I'll change my name to one of these:
      Hercules Rockefeller
      Rembrandt Q. Einstein
      Handsome B. Wonderful
      Max Power

      Which one would be best? Should I post an AskSlashdot?

  3. Erm... by r4bb1t · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How do they plan on labeling software solely distributed over the internet? I'd venture to say that 90% of the spyware that's out there comes through download-only software (DivX, peer to peer software, etc...).

  4. The idea is great... by MacFury · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Implementation would be far too much trouble. Developers would fight you at every turn. Would my software be spyware if I had it collect general system stats if you choose to register, so that I know the average machine speed of my clients? Would that carry the same label as a program that logged every keystroke and sent that back?

    1. Re:The idea is great... by kawika · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You missed the point, or more likely did not read the article. Having one of these icons doesn't mean your program is "spyware". It means that your program performs one or more of these functions. Other programs such as virus scanners or keyboard drivers might have them too. The point is to inform users in a concise way of program behaviors that may cause some sort of trouble. The more of these things a program does (like autoupdate or sending back click data) the harder a user should look at the license to be sure they really trust what is going on.

    2. Re:The idea is great... by Cecil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Would my software be spyware if I had it collect general system stats if you choose to register

      Absolutely. If you don't show me every piece of info you're sending through the registration process, it's spyware.

      Are you sending the processor model? How about the MHz? What if I've overclocked? Maybe I don't want you to know that. Does "General system stats" include a list of running processes perhaps?

      If you want to have me send in an automatically-filled out survey about my machine, I might be happy to do that for you, provided I can see and change the answers as needed. It is a survey, right? You are trusting my answers, right? If you covertly sneak some auto-detected information about my system into your registration process, that's spyware.

  5. Can there be a label... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    to denote buggy code?

    1. Re:Can there be a label... by dspfreak · · Score: 5, Funny
      to denote buggy code?

      Yeah, it has red, blue, green, and yellow wavy squares in a 2x2 pattern with a black border.

      --
      "Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." -- G. K. Chesterton
  6. Finally by JoeShmoe950 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Spyware is a big problem which isn't Window's fault. Because windows is the biggest, it gets targetted by spyware. You can still right a program which uses 100% CPU Usage and makes everything really slow,etc. for another OS, no matter how secure. Unfortunetly, its targeted at windows. My friend thought that windows XP was horrible because it was running so slow. On a 2ghz, it would take 5 minutes to load IE. I showed him Ad-Aware from lavasoft. It detected 589 spyware objects, quite a few of them different. I found that a big problem with spyware, is not only the spying, yet the fact that it slows your system to a hault. If this works, and makes spyware go away, or atleast well known spyware label itself (such as gator), I will rejoice.

    1. Re:Finally by ThisIsFred · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Spyware is a big problem which isn't Window's fault. Because windows is the biggest, it gets targetted by spyware.

      Sorry, but that's complete and utter bullshit. My tech team spends too much time cleaning up after malware. I made the mistake of switching our organization over to IE several years ago, mainly due to complaints about compatibility. The majority of these nasty malware programs take advantage of design flaws in IE to enter the system and remain there.

      I'm now testing Netscape 7 as a standard browser. It cannot be modified, or accessed through the operating system as can IE. Therefore, most of the loading schemes used by malware do not work. So IE is definitely part of the problem. IE is part of Windows, so it is Windows' fault. Malware programs modify Windows so that they can run as extensions to the operating system, and no actually up as a process in the process list.

      --
      Fred

      "A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
      -RMS
  7. New label on Windows XP retail box by morelife · · Score: 4, Funny

    to provide honest labels on software in the same way that the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 forced manufacturers of foods and drugs to divulge the contents of their products.


    By opening or removing the seal to this package you agree to abide by the terms explained in the enclosed EULA. By the way, this product contains software code, which, by installing on your computer, could render you utterly defenseless from intrusion, viruses, worms, trojans, popup advertising, loss of data, loss of privacy, NOT TO MENTION putting you on an endless treadmill of planned obsolescence, making you a pawn in the global theater of consumer rape by corporations. Enjoy!! Oh, yeah, we don't guarantee that the software works, and, no refunds.


  8. The right way to fight "spyware" by kawika · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As that article says, most of the proposals to control spyware get bogged down in trying to define spyware without catching sofware that is clearly legitimate, such as an antivirus program trying to "phone home" automatically to update its virus signatures.

    I would much rather see regulation that required all software to clearly declare its intentions, and to get explicit and verified permission to install.

  9. Like requiring thieves to pay taxes on thier loot. by teamhasnoi · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Are the makers of porn dialers, trojans, email relays and viruses going to put a helpful icon on their software? No.

    That is contrary to the nature of the software, which is to hide, report on your actions, enable remote operations, reproduce and the like.

    Spammers are going to ignore this, just like an unsubscribe link.

  10. Reward good, instead of punishing evil by maiden_taiwan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Software vendors will have no incentive to put negative labels on their products; even if it's the law, they'll find some loopholes to avoid the labels. Instead, they would have more incentive to use labels that are positive. Instead of making a vendors say, "Yes, I use spyware," it makes more sense to award well-behaved programs a positive seal of approval which means, "This software uses no spyware, is uninstallable, etc."

  11. Nutrition Facts by ets960 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Looks like this software contains 36% of my daily value of spam, but it does contain 200% of my daily requirements for internet messaging.

  12. Re:Adware/Spyware makes me mad by gumpish · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The people who get spyware are the stupid and the elderly. Switching to linux would make things even worse for them.

    I believe you just made the case for Mac OS X.

  13. article text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Pure Software Act of 2006
    100 years ago, Congress passed a law requiring honest labeling of food and drugs. Now the time has come to do the same for software.

    By Simson Garfinkel
    The Net Effect
    April 7, 2004

    Spyware is the scourge of desktop computing. Yes, computer worms and viruses cause billions of dollars in damage every year. But spyware--programs that either record your actions for later retrieval or that automatically report on your actions over the Internet--combines commerce and deception in ways that most of us find morally repugnant.

    Worms and viruses are obviously up to no good: these programs are written by miscreants and released into the wild for no purpose other than wreaking havoc. But most spyware is authored by law-abiding companies, which trick people into installing the programs onto their own computers. Some spyware is also sold for the explicit purpose of helping spouses to spy on their partners, parents to spy on their children, and employers to spy on their workers. Such programs cause computers to betray the trust of their users.

    Until now, the computer industry has focused on technical means to control the plague of spyware. Search-and-destroy programs such as Ad-Aware will scan your computer for known spyware, tracking cookies, and other items that might compromise your privacy. Once identified, the offending items can be quarantined or destroyed. Firewall programs like ZoneAlarm takes a different approach: they don't stop the spyware from collecting data, but they prevent the programs from transmitting your personal information out over the Internet.

    But there is another way to fight spyware--an approach that would work because the authors are legitimate organizations. Congress could pass legislation requiring that software distributed in the United States come with product labels that would reveal to consumers specific functions built into the programs. Such legislation would likely have the same kind of pro-consumer results as the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906--the legislation that is responsible for today's labels on food and drugs.

    The Art of Deception

    Mandatory software labeling is a good idea because the fundamental problem with spyware is not the data collection itself, but the act of deception. Indeed, many of the things that spyware does are done also by non-spyware programs. Google's Toolbar for Internet Explorer, for example, reports back to Google which website you are looking at so that the toolbar can display the site's "page rank." But Google goes out of its way to disclose this feature--when you install the program, Google makes you decide whether you want to have your data sent back or not. "Please read this carefully," says the Toolbar's license agreement, "it's not the usual yada yada."

    Spyware, on the other hand, goes out of its way to hide its true purpose. One spyware program claims to automatically set your computer's clock from the atomic clock operated by the U.S. Naval Observatory. Another program displays weather reports customized for your area. Alas, both of these programs also display pop-up advertisements when you go to particular websites. (Some software vendors insist that programs that only display advertisements are not spyware, per se, but rather something called adware, because they display advertisements. Most users don't care about this distinction.)

    Some of these programs hide themselves by not displaying icons when they run and even removing themselves from the list of programs that are running on your computer. I've heard of programs that list themselves in the Microsoft Windows Add/Remove control panel--but when you go to remove them, they don't actually remove themselves, they just make themselves invisible. Sneaky.

    Yet despite this duplicity, most spyware and adware programs aren't breaking any U.S. law. That's because many of these programs disclose what they do and then get the user's explicit consent. They do this with something that's called a click-wr

  14. NO! by ThisIsFred · · Score: 4, Interesting

    No thanks. I have more trust for "disinterested" third parties that verify and publish on their own. A more helpful law would be one that protects the researchers (even amateur ones) from harassment (legal or otherwise). It's a slippery slope, it will not end with labeling.

    I *don't* want that to happen with software! I'd much rather retain the right, as fair use, to legally modify crap-ware, and also have the right to discuss the details of that modification with other people.

    --
    Fred

    "A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
    -RMS
  15. Copy protection and DRM by vegetablespork · · Score: 4, Insightful
    should be required to be disclosed in a standard manner on the outside of the packaging. Products that require registration or "activation" to run after purchase like TurboTax (last year's--don't know about this year's since I switched to TaxCut) and PowerQuest's recent utilities should be required to carry this disclosure in a standard, readable, consistent format.

    If anyone cries that this would be like a scarlet letter and harm his sales, remind him that proponents of DRM (while wielding effective monopolies in their product areas) were saying to "let the market sort it out." Free markets require good information, which such a law will provide.

    --

    Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.

  16. Why aren't we blaming Microsoft? by brxndxn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Ya, I use Windows XP. Even though I have a firewall and keep my patches up to date, I still get adware/spyware once in a while.

    I would get 0 adware/spyware if Microsoft wrote a little bit of security into their operating system in a few ways:

    - Record log of installed files (prompt for any files being installed in non-specified directlories.. ie: If realplayer trys to install realisawesome.dll in C:\windows\system32, WINDOWS itself prompts me.)

    - Prompt for any programs trying to start up with the computer

    - Have only one method for a program starting up with a pretty little 'startup' icon in the control panel

    - Disable IE's install on demand by default (probby most common method for spyware)

    - Allow users to disable popups without a fucking extra program (fuck developers and their incessant popups - MS gives way too much control to them and none to the end user)

    - Have Windows control the uninstall and not some crappy script written by the same company that wrote the crappy software that user wants to uninstall cause' it was crappy

    - Allow the user to enable plugins only when desired (disable flash advertisements and stuff)

    - Quit allowing programs to install a shortcut in startup, the quicklaunch bar, the desktop, every goddamn folder on the computer, favorites, and quit launching a secondary program just to launch a button that launches the main program!!!

    This is how you could fix things in Windows.. Linux is pre-fixed.

    So, you Linux nerds, why the hell aren't we trashing Microsoft in this thread? They're fixing 'security', but not the type of shit Mr. Stupid Enduser cares about.

    --
    --- We need more Ron Paul!
  17. Labels - but not. by Allen+Zadr · · Score: 4, Insightful
    One thing that makes this less desirable from a software marketing standpoint is that in the short-term (early adoption), there is no 'negative' labels, where 8 negative labels means that your program could be considered 'safe' computing.

    Further, there are several games that ship with Microsoft DirectX. That modifies your operating system. The program's package can't be labelled without the (wrench icon), unless it comes with installation instructinos about how and where to download the required ActiveX features.

    In otherwords, sometimes the labelling will simply get in the way of the whole truth.

    --
    Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
    1. Re:Labels - but not. by The_K4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which also brings up the point of software you download...no packaging! Do they need to put the icons on the linking page? All linking pages? On the google search replies? MOST spy-ware/ad-ware software isn't purchsed or packaged!

  18. Re:Like requiring thieves to pay taxes on thier lo by kawika · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You're talking about viruses, and of course anyone who wants to break the law can do so. Right now though, there is a large class of software created by companies that say what they are doing is perfectly legal. They claim that by having a user click OK on a dialog box they can do pretty much anything they want on that user's PC. And they are doing this brazenly, out in the open, and in the clear view of the governing agencies. LOP.COM is one of the most-despised pieces of spyware around and still the guy from C2/LOP has the ballz to file a comment for the upcoming FTC spyware conference saying LOP is the future of Internet advertising!

    Most spyware/adware makers feel the same way, they don't have to hide because they are not breaking any laws. And if you download the software directly from their web sites you will be presented with various screens and buttons you have to click to agree. However, the details of what you are agreeing to is anything but clear. The Claria license is 20 pages for example, and to paraphrase: "Once you click YES we can automatically download and install new software, even new versions of other vendor's software like Media Player or Flash if we need it to display ads. We can even send back an list of all the software installed on your system."

    Should it be legal to bury that in a 20-page document and then say that clicking YES on a dialog box is legally binding?

  19. Who says more icons have to be bad, anyway? by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Aside from the pop-ups one (which may be difficult to "guage"), all of these features could be good or bad depending on the circumstances. The logic being, IF it has a lot of icons, AND you trust the company, then it's still safe to buy.
    OTH, if it has a lot of icons and you DON'T trust the company, it's probably NOT safe to buy. If it has one or no icons and you don't trust the company (or you do), it probably can't hurt.

    Example:

    Auto-Update, Uninstallable, and Modify system for a service pack from MS is no worse than Modify System + Popups from a "Free Web Accelerator" from some random website.

    I can see them sticking those icons right next to the "recommended system requirements". It'd start looking like a Nutrition Facts label. They just need one for "Requires Administratrive Privledge", and maybe they should either add one that says "Directly Controls Hardware" too.

    And I think the telephone calls one and pop-up ones are too specific. The telephone call one should be more like "can incur incremental cost automatically" (so it'd apply to MMRPGs or Click n' Run as well) and the pop-up one should simply be "Adware".

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  20. More evil bits .... by Frater+219 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    It ain't a joke. Honest software makers will indeed likely support it, since it allows them to make clear how their software differs from crapware. I'd go for a few more labels, though, intended to illustrate the intent of the software, so you get what you are paying for.
    • A portcullis. This software filters or alters the content of files or incoming Internet traffic. Web pages you see, for instance, might not represent the exact transmissions of the Web server or the intent of the author. Appropriate to anti-virus software, porn-filtering censorware, privacy software ... and adware that replaces ad banners with other ad banners.
    • A police badge. This software runs by default under elevated or superuser ("root" or "Administrator") privilege. (Simply requiring superuser privilege to install the software doesn't count. Creating a dummy user with most of the privileges of the superuser does, though.) Therefore a bug in this software, including a security vulnerability, can affect anything on your computer -- not just the files owned by the user actively using it.
    • A cable plugged into a wall socket. This software accepts incoming network connections in the default configuration. If you do not intend this software to accept traffic from the Internet, you will need to change the configuration or have a firewall.
    • A computer with an arrow through the monitor. This software is designed to be remotely disabled by the publisher under certain circumstances (such as breach of license or expiration of subscription). The fact that it is installed and working today does not imply that it will continue to work without future intervention.
    • A closed mouth with a finger making the "shush" gesture. This software's license forbids or encumbers the publication of reviews without the permission of the publisher. Reviews you may have read of this software may have been selected by the publisher to represent it in an unfairly positive light.
    • A pair of handcuffs. Documents or other files you produce using this software are encumbered by its license, patents, or other proprietary rights of the publisher. Appropriate for a word processor whose file format is patented, or a compiler whose license forbids you to use it to write software that competes with the publisher's other software.
    1. Re:More evil bits .... by cloak42 · · Score: 3, Informative

      A closed mouth with a finger making the "shush" gesture. This software's license forbids or encumbers the publication of reviews without the permission of the publisher. Reviews you may have read of this software may have been selected by the publisher to represent it in an unfairly positive light.

      Any license that would prevent you from reviewing the software is highly illegal. Reviews are explicitly covered under the Fair Use clause of copyright law. So much, in fact, that it's entirely legal to include clips of movies, songs, or text from a book in your review. (A perfect example of this was when two whole pages of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix was leaked to the public in a review. Court's ruling: Fair Use.)

      You could easily challenge something like that in court, if it came down to it.

  21. The right solution would be technical, not legal by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Like many people, Garkfinkel is proposing a legislative solution to something that'd be better handled technically.

    (Legislative solutions are suboptimal/dangerous for many reasons. They are over-broad, in that they apply even to consenting adults who wish to engage in the behavior without meddlesome government oversight; cf prostitution. And they're too-narrow, in that they can by necessity only apply within the country's legal jurisdiction, whereas software distribution is an international operation)

    Turn now to the second page the Pure Software proposal. The list of potential warning-labels it suggests is: Hook, Dial, Modify, Monitor, Popup, Remote Control, Self-Updates, and Stuck.

    All of those things are basically technical features which a well-designed operating system could prohibit programs from using, without permission. The root of the problem is that even after 30+ years of software publication, most programs are still just completely arbitrary lists of instructions: once they're executing, they do whatever they do, and nothing can stop them.

    The big exception there is that most OSes, at least, restrict programs on a per-user basis. A program cannot read or edit files to which the executing user has no permission. That's an important step, but one that Unix has had firmly in place since the 80s. As time passes, we need to go further: program priviledges should be restricted not just at the per-user level, but also at finer granularity.

    When I download and install a program, I don't want just the option of "run it or don't". I should be able to run it, but without it being able to read any files except those it came with. Or being allowed to read files, but only if I pick them from a system-supplied dialog box. Or read any files, but not write to them, except in a directory I've chosen (and that it can't override). Or write files, but only in specific approved formats (such as those which can't possibly contain executable code). Similar kinds of restrictions suggest themselves for GUI and network areas (including the important points of "phone home" and "data tainting")

    To a small extent, Java frameworks (like "Web Start") have attempted to do this, with a list of features the user can individually permit a program to execute. Microsoft .Net also makes overtures in this direction. It will be a challenge for OS vendors to allow users to have this amount of control, without overwhelming them with so many choices they'll give up and just give full permissions to everythig (in the pattern of "I always run as administrator, because it's the only way to get stuff done"). But those challenges can be surmounted with skilled interface design.

    The best way to prevent software from doing something is to use software that prevents it from doing it. (As Lawrence Lessig said, the best and most effective laws for code are more code)

  22. Re:No... by ThisIsFred · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But you're kidding yourself if you don't think the main reason there's more malware for Windows/IE than anything else is because of their popularity.

    To agree with you, I'd have to accept that popularity, and not design, is what creates security flaws. No, sorry, I'm not buying it. Netscape, with it's 6 major vulnerabilities that have long since been patched, I can sit here and surf all day without picking up any malware. Windows is the problem, and IE is the enabler, if you will. I'm going to be switching our network workstations over to Netscape, and EULA-be-damned, I'm going to find a way to cripple IE.

    --
    Fred

    "A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
    -RMS
  23. Re:Why? by mikeswi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "If you don't know what you're buying...don't buy it."

    So, you believe you shouldn't buy something if you don't know what it does, but are against a requirement that forces the maker to explain what it does?

  24. Re:No... by ThisIsFred · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Lets say Netscape was THE browser to have. Do you think anyone would be bothering to write IE exploits?

    Your argument is based on the premise that IE and Netscape are the same in terms of design. Netscape/Mozilla can't be "hijacked" in the same manner because it doesn't use Windows' registry classes to determine what to do with a downloaded file, and it isn't integrated with the Explorer shell. A Netscape browser window instance can't be silently started (without a "head"), and a new filetype can't be opened without the user knowing, or taking action. Likewise, Sun Java and Javascript is limited to things done inside the browser, it doesn't have access to the rest of the operating system.

    But disabling IE is not the answer. I predict within a few weeks of you doing this you are undoing it for some higher ranking manager. Then his buddy will find out, and so on. Soon you are supporting not 1 browser but 2. HAVE FUN with your crippling!

    Obviously, I can't completely remove it, that would break Windows. I want to use it as a tool for running Windows Update, but I will have to make exceptions for certain trusted sites. It won't be my undoing because my superiors are well aware of the problems that malware causes, and would be happier without pop-ups and system instability. I'm not doing this in secret. I've explained to them the reasons, the effects, and the exceptions where some may have to use IE.

    Make the people who are making your job misserable RESPONSABLE for their actions.

    I can't go Stalin on my network users. Where there are standard configurations, we use DeepFreeze to restore the computers to the original configuration. Unfortunately, we can't use this everywhere, because it is to inflexible for the users with non-standard configurations.

    --
    Fred

    "A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
    -RMS