Slashdot Mirror


USTR Critical Of Japanese TD-CDMA Licensing

News for nerds writes "Yahoo Asia reports that the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative (USTR) said in its annual report that the Japanese government has so far refused to issue experimental licenses to certain U.S. companies to test the new TD-CDMA technology. It attacks China and S. Korea along the line. The funny thing is, according to Impress Internet Watch, the Japanese government states that no U.S. companies had actually applied for the license so far. ITmedia also reports the Japanese government didn't deny foreign application, while criticizing the government for too narrow bandwidth of TD-CDMA that can be monopolized easily. Is this the precursor of another wave of pressure onto technology from Japan?"

20 of 184 comments (clear)

  1. Have we been here before? by beanfeast · · Score: 5, Informative

    I seem to recall a similar debate over the U.S.'s attempt to push the use of CDMA at the expense of of GSM in Iraq.


    The words pot and kettle come to mind

    --
    The preceding line was intentionally left blank.
  2. Re:new TD-CDMA by Detritus · · Score: 4, Informative
    GSM is rather old. TDMA is going away in the USA. CDMA is going to be around for a while. Most of the new standards are based on new and updated versions of CDMA.

    The standard mentioned in the article is a mix of TDMA and CDMA. It uses CDMA in a half-duplex fashion, with transmission lengths limited to predefined time slots.

    --
    Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  3. CDMA is superior by PlatinumInitiate · · Score: 4, Informative

    A lot of GSM folks champion that standard, and it has done well in becoming "the" standard in Europe, Africa and Asia, but technnologically, CDMA is superior technically - for example, it has higher data transfer capacity and has lower radiation levels. It is a pity that such a huge infrastructure based on GSM exists, but I think that a move towards CDMA can only be a good thing.

    1. Re:CDMA is superior by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
      it has higher data transfer capacity

      Ok. That might be a good point, but is the capacity significantly (50%+) higher?

      has lower radiation levels.

      Completely irrelevant. Cell phone radiation intensity is already miniscule compared to the ambient radiation we receive from space and our surroundings.

      Furthermore, one can show almost with high school physics that even if the intensities were much higher, the radiation from cell phones CANNOT disrupt biological systems.

      Energy is carried by photons. If the energy of photons in radiation is less than that of a chemical bond in a DNA/protein/molecule then the bonds will not be cleaved no matter how intense the radiation is.

      The energy of photons in cell-phone radiation is way below the energies needed for disrupting chemical bonds in organisms.

      Indirect energy loss channels (conversion into heat) are so inefficient that they can be neglected out of hand. There has never been any proof that cell-phones would increase the temperature in the brain-matter by more than what's observed normally in the body.

    2. Re:CDMA is superior by bronaugh · · Score: 3, Informative

      Completely irrelevant. Cell phone radiation intensity is already miniscule compared to the ambient radiation we receive from space and our surroundings.

      I'm quite sure you're incorrect on this point. For all intents and purposes, you can consider a cell phone to be a point source -- intensity of radiation varies with the inverse of the cube of the distance from the source. Background radiation is almost by definition the same everywhere. You're not going to see anywhere near the equivalent of a 200mW microwave radiation source (CDMA power level) from background radiation in that frequency band. Reference: How Cellular Phone Technologies Compare

      Furthermore, one can show almost with high school physics that even if the intensities were much higher, the radiation from cell phones CANNOT disrupt biological systems.

      (Rest snipped: Summary is that non-ionizing radiation cannot disrupt biological systems except by heating effects). Counter-argument: If it's so safe, then why are there standards bodies which set exposure limits for non-ionizing radiation? Microwaves can, and do, disrupt biological systems at levels well below those which would apparently cause heating effects. This is due to micro-heating of small areas -- interference patterns. In fact, there's enough concern that the WHO wrote a paper on it: Biological Effects of Microwaves and Mobile Telephony.

      Getting back on topic, one interesting conclusion of the paper is that CDMA is considerably safer than GSM -- GSM's maximum transmit power level is about 1 watt, whereas CDMA has a maximum transmit power level of about 200 milliwatts.

      Overall, I don't like that the US is shoving their weight around, but I also don't think CDMA is a technically inferior solution. Possibly the Japanese are suffering from not-invented-here or not-funded-here syndrome on this one. Time will tell.

    3. Re:CDMA is superior by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      umm... only the fact that cingular and t-mobile practically share the same network stands in the way of your argument

    4. Re:CDMA is superior by splerdu · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ok. That might be a good point, but is the capacity significantly (50%+) higher?

      Not just 50%, but several orders of magnitude higher.

      GSM 56Kbps
      CDMA2000 2Mbps

      how do you think the japanese stream live video on their phones?

      the radiation level is 10x less than AMPS and GSM. while as you say the amount we get is already very small, but this isn't just cutting it in half, it's several orders lower.

    5. Re:CDMA is superior by Sigurd_Fafnersbane · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not just 50%, but several orders of magnitude higher.

      GSM 56Kbps

      CDMA2000 2Mbps

      As others have allready mentioned that is not a meaningfull comparison. With GSM Phase 2+ you have a max data rate of 384 kb/s (EDGE) and with Phase 3 you have 2Mb/s with the UTRAN (W-CDMA) air interface and 384 kb/s with the GERAN (EDGE) air interface.

      Both are likely to be furter developed in future GSM standards releases.

      You have to look at what you can get out of your handsets and datacards today with comparable cost, coverage and conveniance. AFAIK you can get an AT&T GSM (EDGE) datacard with 192 kb/s full duplex data capability. This is available today and I dont think it is that much different with what the CDMA2k camp is boasting. I do think you get the benefits of the AT&T one with global roaming, SIM card and global messaging (SMS, MMS). What is the up-side of the CDMA2k?

    6. Re:CDMA is superior by Sigurd_Fafnersbane · · Score: 5, Informative

      I forgot to complain about the parent posts claim regarding radiation level:

      the radiation level is 10x less than AMPS and GSM. while as you say the amount we get is already very small, but this isn't just cutting it in half, it's several orders lower.

      The main difference is that with CDMA2k you have continuous transmission, with GSM and GSM EDGE you have bursted transmission with a duty cycle of 12.5% for full rate and 6.25% for half-rate voice codecs.

      For 2W peak power you would be down to 250mW or 125mW max power when you consider the duty cycle. What is important is the energy pr. bit, and that is not that different between the two systems.

      Also you are not likely to transmit at full power neither in CDMA2k nor in GSM. The basestation will continuously monitor the signal strength from the mobile and command it to reduce transmitted power until the S/N at the basestation is just sufficient for decoding. This improves the spectrum efficiency by allowing faster frequency re-use and it improves your handsets battery life as well.

      One problem in CDMA is that the basestation needs to transmit the same power level to all handsets, it can not reduce the transmitted power to handsets with good reception. One bozo with aluminium foil over the antenna will force the basestation to increase transmitted power to all handsets. In GSM the basestation would only need to boost power to the one bozo, not to all the other users. This can damage the spectrum efficiency of CDMA based systems in down-link.

    7. Re:CDMA is superior by squiggleslash · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's not the case. Cingular and T-Mobile have offered to plug holes in each other's networks with a transparent kind of roaming, but they are two entirely seperate networks for the most part. Remember, both have been around for a long time (T-Mobile USA used to be Voicestream which itself is a merger of a whole bunch of GSM operators.)

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    8. Re:CDMA is superior by bronaugh · · Score: 2, Informative

      OK, basically this is what I've read. I don't go to stupid conspiracy theorist sites to get my info (because they're full of shit) -- I try to gather as much of it as I can from the published literature. And no, I don't quote things if they don't come from a reasonably reputable source.

      As to what kind of problems, etc, read the WHO paper again -- it's fully referenced, so if you're determined you can go and look up the papers referenced. That would answer the "proven by who" and "proven how" questions. It also covers at least one of the proposed mechanisms (microheating).

      The WHO paper covers this, but unfortunately they're rather fuzzy about it. So I'll do my best to clarify where the hell their numbers came from.

      You can have one frequency modulated by another -- a harmonic. The microwaves could be considered to be the base frequency, and the ELF frequency (the transmit beat; described lower down) to be the harmonic. I believe this answers your "frequency component" question. (Please don't argue this; it's a waste of both of our time to argue about known things)

      To answer your "What biological frequencies" question, I'll link you to this ass-ugly page: Brain wave functions. Yes, it's ass ugly; yes, it could hardly be considered authoritative; but, pretty much everything I've read agrees with this. This is all pretty solid stuff; don't bother attacking it.

      Now that we both know what frequency ranges the human brain can operate in, let's look at GSM. GSM has a basic 'flash rate' of 217 flashes per second, an ELF frequency in and of itself, but not one known to be important in the brain or body (hard to argue -- don't bother; well documented). However, these flashes happen in groups of 25 -- which means that you have an effective frequency of 8.34hz -- this is where the WHO paper got this number. This is the 'transmit beat' (my word) referred to above. This is well within the frequency for alpha brain waves. The source of my info on this is unfortunately a vested interest (they sell products to protect your precious grey mush from cell phone microwave radiation): RFSafe on cellular safety. However, what I have used from this article doesn't state anything new; it just gives enough detail to figure out where the WHO people got their numbers.

      I believe that answers your question about "biological processes".

      I'm sorry if you think this is bullshit; it's my firm opinion that it is not. I have seen plenty of research in recent times on the dangers of microwave radiation. However, I also am not attached to this being a real problem; I don't see it as some kind of open-and-shut case of safe or unsafe. I'd love to see some well-referenced counter-opinions -- I'd love to find out that cell phones are a lot safer than I think they are (hey, it'd be convenient).

      In terms of safety, there is no black and white -- things cannot be declared to be "safe" or "unsafe". It's all relative. And my original argument -- that CDMA is -relatively- more safe than GSM -- is rather hard to disprove. No body of literature indicates it's healthier to receives more microwaves with your brain.

  4. Oh, forgot, here is the link by PlatinumInitiate · · Score: 1, Informative
  5. Re:new TD-CDMA by alphakappa · · Score: 5, Informative

    No, CDMA is not on it's way out. CDMA is actually far superior to GSM (IMHO). Actually the commercial implementation of CDMA happened after GSM (CDMA was used by the US military before) which is probaby why most of Asia adopted GSM since that was the cutting-edge technology of that time. Now, both GSM and CDMA (IS-95) are 2G (second generation) technologies. Guess what's 3G? WCDMA (wideband-CDMA) and CDMA-2000. So CDMA is definitely not on its way out.

    --
    "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
  6. A little Jargon explaining by alphakappa · · Score: 5, Informative

    CDMA: Code Division Multiple Access. Here the entire allowed frequency spectrum is used (actually a band) by every user. The idea (in simple terms) is to send out signals that are coded with each user's individual (and unique) code so that only that user can decode it to get meaningful information, everyone else sees that information as noise. You don't need different frequencies in adjacent cells as in traditional cellphone technology (TDMA).

    GSM: Global System for Mobile communications - an advanced technology based on TDMA (Time Division Multiple Access). Here you need different frequencies in adjacent cells. Usually a cluster of cells is used with each cell operating at a different frequency.

    Some more info

    --
    "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to resemble a nail." - Abraham Maslow (1908-1970)
  7. CDMA vs. GSM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    As I understand it, CDMA costs about 10% of what GSM costs in terms of towers, switches and other related infrastructure. This is a major reason why the US is such a "fan" of CDMA (ignoring for a moment the obvious "MADE IN USA" aspect of US support). That said, the sound quality of CDMA, particularly with respect to transmission delays, is horrible when compared with GSM. Mobile telephones in GSM areas just sound much, much more like land-line telephones than CDMA ones.

    CDMA may be a marvelous technology, but it has the unfortunate liability that the service that it delivers to the customer is ridiculously second-rate when compared with GSM. I have used cell phones in the US, and I must say that they are uniformly awful when compared with the GSM system in Europe, for example.

  8. Mobile Equipment rules in Iraq! by Slashamatic · · Score: 3, Informative
    And this is now, when I can't see the mobile phone market in Iraq being very relevant for the next few years.
    Fwiw, if you don't have a military radio or a satellite telephone, you really want a mobile phone in Iraq. The lack of physical wires means that they tend to be much more reliable *and* it will work in the neighbouring countries. The telephones are, of course, GSM as that is the standard in the arab world.
  9. Re:new TD-CDMA by infiniti99 · · Score: 5, Informative

    You are correct. However, it should be said that CMDA vs GSM is an apples and oranges comparison. CDMA is a radio protocol. GSM is a full mobile phone standard of which a radio protocol is just one component. GSM is based on TDMA radio technology, which is outdated by now. The positive point of GSM is that it defines the featureset, including voice (with all the trimmings), data/fax, and sms, as well as concepts like the SIM chip (keeps identity and phone separated), and even the audio codec! This ambitious featureset and level of compatibility is what allowed GSM to dominate most of the world. Of course, like most standards, GSM hasn't really changed in the last 10 years (although lately there have been some add-ons, like GPRS).

    Even so, GSM has withstood the test of time. Some companies in the USA tried to build their own competing systems (using the same radio protocol, TDMA), but they paled in comparison to GSM. Even many CDMA implementations (ie, Sprint, Verizon) have lagged seriously behind GSM's featureset, despite being based on a better radio protocol. Today, CDMA implementations have surpassed GSM capabilities in many areas (wireless data throughput comes to mind), but until I see Verizon using SIM chips, it is safe to say that GSM isn't going anywhere.

    The next generation of mobile technology will simply be improvements to GSM concepts. We'll hopefully continue the trend of network standardization with a solid featureset and a SIM-like identity mechanism, but with an upgraded (CDMA-based) radio protocol.

  10. Been somewhere similar before by BillsPetMonkey · · Score: 4, Informative

    At a time when the US and Europe were being sold WAP technology, the Japanese developed imode, and gained around 30m users in a couple of short years.

    WAP never sold well, and people were never convinced of it's merits. End of story - it was superceeded by 3G and ahem, 2.5G. Kind of.

    The fact was that imode could never be sold in Europe because the WAP consortium had outlawed packet switching technologies with respective governments' help. Thus the infrastructure was labelled expensive and proprietary (which is exactly what WAP was anyway), and was prevented from being implemented.

    The WAP consortium was formed with the expressed purpose of keeping Japanese technology out of Europe and the US, and so we can see the same thing happening here - the Japanese develop a superior technology, so US and European carriers seek to refuse it entry to the market.

    Worth remembering next time you go into a mobile phone shop and think "Why hasn't the technology here improved much in the last 5 years?" ...

    --
    "It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
  11. Re:new TD-CDMA by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Informative
    Not exactly.

    CDMA is both a mobile phone standard (IS-95) and a technology (Code Division Multiple Access) and if you're comparing "GSM" to "TDMA" to "CDMA" then you're refering to phone standards. CDMA the phone standard is junk, in all honesty, and is being phased out. The direct replacement for it is CDMA2000, which existing US IS-95 operators like Sprint PCS and Verizon are moving to.

    CDMA the technology is rather better and is being used in a number of newer systems. GSM "version 2" is called UMTS, and has a configurable air interface which can be GSM's Time Division Multiple Access, EDGE (a more modern and efficient Time Division MA system), or a variant of Code Division Multiple Access (ie the CDMA the technology, not CDMA the mobile phone standard) called WCDMA, depending on the operator's preferences.

    Only CDMA2000 is based upon CDMA the standard. UMTS is based upon GSM. TD-CDMA is a completely new system and isn't based upon anything. It does use "CDMA the technology", but it certainly isn't related in any way, shape, or form to IS-95.

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  12. Re:SIM tied to phone? by mindstrm · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not exactly.. those providers selling DISCOUNT phones, you know, for "free" or for "$5" when you purchase your SIM.... in a package deal, will have the phone locked to only read sims from that provider. That means that if the provider is regional, and all your friends also have phones from the same provider... you can still swap phones all you like.

    You can still take your SIM and use it in any unrestricted GSM phone.

    It's not like open GSM phones are hard to find either.. basically every cellular shop is full of them. The locked ones are just cheaper, that's all.