Two Takes on the Java Dilemma

Joe Barr writes "NewsForge is running a pair of excellent commentaries on the plight of Java and the Java development community following the recent "settlement" between longtime rivals Sun and Microsoft. One is by Rick Ross, the articulate leader of JavaLobby, entitled "Where is Java in the settlement?" The second is "Free but shackled: The Java trap" by Richard Stallman. Good reading. Both commentators put their finger on the heart of the problem, albeit from different perspectives." Yes, Newsforge and Slashdot are both owned by OSDN.

Comments

Re:The Algol, the

[black mariah]

(? Unstable)(? Why is that)
(. LISP is (over-parenthesised, and just (not pretty)))
(. (and Basic C) are relatively close to (regular speech))

Fuck, that made my head hurt. Anyway, LISP is just plain weird. Still, complaining about syntax is like complaining that a car is ugly. Who cares? It works.

I'm sick of Stallman

[JThaddeus]

Okay, so the guy had done a lot for the software industry but let's get real: Show of hands--how many of us would have decent jobs if all software were completely free as defined by Stallman? Uuuuhhh... yeah, I thought so. The man needs to come down from his ivory tower and look at how the real world works.

I've used Java for over seven years and have never paid Sun a time for it. Likewise we use Java in our product and neither us nor our customers have paid Sun a dime for it--though they have paid a lot for our product! And damn glad I am, too, that they buy our software. It pays our bills and gives me some time to contribute to at least one free project. Now what is so wrong with this picture?

Re:Sun only features?

[black mariah]

I seriously don't think he knows a damn thing about Java other than "The virtual machine isn't Free." I think RMS is just slowly going insane. All that bear weight is sucking his brainpower.

Re:Sun never cared about their developers.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure everybody would agree with you on that last paragraph.

(a) What's so good about C#? What makes it so much better than Java?

(b) Does Microsoft give a damn about their developer community either? Sun sells a Java compiler for $0, Microsoft doesn't even offer a stripped-down command-line C# compiler (we have to look to dotGNU and Mono for that, Microsoft doesn't seem to even acknowledge that they exist)

Re:You must go the way of the apt-rpm, sir.

[Bklyn]

A red-hat based distro can last a long time provided you use somewhat more sophisticated tools to manage it. Suggestion: apt-rpm.

Better suggestion: instead of trying to bang a square peg (apt-get) into a broken hole (RedHat), just use Debian and be done with it.

Re:Sun never cared about their developers.

[LibertineR]

Sorry, but I was there. My history is dead on accurate, and the results are their for all to see. You may not like it, (you actually read like one of the Sun losers we negotiated with) but the fact remains that Sun KNEW what we were doing, and admitted so in their internal emails.

Remember these, Smart boy?

"Microsoft was smarter than us when we did the contract...What I find most annoying is that no one at Sun saw this coming...I wonder what is in other contracts...If we adhere to these terms, new Java and Java Platform functionality must be developed as Supplemental Classes without dependence on new features in the Java Classes or it must have Microsoft buy-in...."
David Spenhoff, Director of Product Marketing at JavaSoft
MS Opp. To 17200 Motion At 9:21-10:9

[The contract] "...subtantially limits our ability to introduce new technologies since almost all new technologies require a new class...I believe we're in violation of the Microsoft contract and our attempt to re-class things as Extensions will have limited success."
Eric Chu, JDK 1.1 Product Manager and David Bowen, JDK Engineering Manager
MS Opp. To 17200 Motion At 10:12-21

"If negotiation with Microsoft is not going well, we can possibly 'enhance' the Java Test Suite to invalidate any Java implementation that doesn't support certain desired new feature. I believe this should be one of the last card we play if negotiation goes badly.
Eric Chu, JDK 1.1 Product Manager MS Opp. To 17200 Motion At 11:1-4

My history is dead on, asshole. Sun hated that they had to play with us. They knew we had done a better job with Java up to that point than they did. Instead of being concerned about their developers or the potential HUGE market for Java, they tried to suck everything back under their own umbrella. The rest is HISTORY.

Re:Sun will sell Java to the highest bidder

[The Spoonman]

First of all, it doesn't "beg the question," it simply depends on the question.

Get laid, loser, then correct my grammar. I'm sure once you've had sex, you'll find there's more important things to worry about. Language changes, it evolves, and it evolves because people find new ways to use it. "Begs the question" is a common colloquialism and now part of the language. Get over it, or die, please. You knew what I meant, so regardless of the "real" meaning of the phrase, you were able to understand what I meant, that means the phrase worked as written.

Switching to AMD has no such problems.

Aside from the lower performance & stability and increased heat sensitivity, sure no problems. At least, no problems until the processor fan dies and the CPU fries up two seconds later.

Re:are you insane?

[Ender Ryan]

It seems to me that you've never actually supported a corporate environment. These OEM installs and contracts are in place not because they are better than custom built machines, but because there's someone to blame (other than the technology department) when things go wrong.

a. That is a complete farce. b. I have supported a corporate enviornment, albeit a small one. OTOH, I know plenty of people who support large corporate enviornments with Linux. As I asked before, WHAT OEM installs? Are you saying you cannot get machines with any other distro than RedHat pre-installed? If that's what you mean, that is patently false.

How about you come back when you know what you're talking about?

What. The. Fuck? You are the one making these bizarre, wildly innaccurate claims...

RedHat == Linux my ass. You need a hard knock on the head with a big fucking clue-by-four.