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Interview With The MPEG Committee's Founder

JasonFleischer points out this "interview with Leonardo Chiariglione, digital video pioneer and founder of the MPEG standards committee, is available on the public access section Scientific American's website. In the interview Chiariglione explains the motivations and hopes for his new Digital Media Project -- an attempt to integrate existing technologies to create a transparent, universal, non-proprietary system for digital rights management. Of particular interest to some /.ers may be his old article from Linux Journal that talks about the relationship between Open Source and MPEG standards."

19 of 91 comments (clear)

  1. Some people will love it, just not users by eclectro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From the interview;

    For example, you could play a specific title until a certain date, or you could buy a subscription allowing you to play anything you want for a given period.

    That's what he is working on. I'm sure the RIAA loves the idea of "rental" music.

    Apple not only has a more solid model of music ownership with itunes, they will have done it first. Luckily this project is going to show up late to the party when they unveil it two years from now.

    Nothing new here. Move on.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    1. Re:Some people will love it, just not users by meringuoid · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Plus points:

      No late fees. I like that.
      No hassle of going back to the rental place to return it. I like that.
      I can easily pira^H^H^H^Hbackup a DVD within 72 hours. Yay!

      Down points:

      No late fees. The rental place hates that.
      No hassle of going back to the rental place to return it. The rental place hates that - they want me to come back and rent again.
      I can easily back^H^H^H^Hpirate a DVD within 72 hours. AAAAAACCCCKKKKK!

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    2. Re:Some people will love it, just not users by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple not only has a more solid model of music ownership with itunes, they will have done it first. Luckily this project is going to show up late to the party when they unveil it two years from now.

      Emphasis mine, of course.

      I think you hit the nail on the head. I read the first article (well, the paper about MPEG and OSS) and couldn't help but think he was trying to say "let's work together, but we're not budging". And that's not helping the problem anyway. Compromise, right? Both sides have to give.

      When I read the interview, I couldn't help but think he was right in a lot of ways, such as when he talks about how the experience isn't any different now than it was before digital music (at least, before digital music like we know it now). Sure we can rip our CDs and carry them around on a series of nice-looking and nice-working mp3 players (I have one of my own, but it's CD-based :( ). Great. But the experience hasn't changed. Not until I buy that $400 device from those River people, anyway. But I also couldn't help but think "too little too late". If they had worried about the DRM stuff 10 years ago, all the problems we're having now would have been averted.

      See, it looks to me like he's honestly trying to keep fair use rights, even if he's not formally saying "fair use". He wants the digital experience to be realized by everyone, and he knows that content producers (or in the case of record labels, content distributors, blech) have to come on board for it to really work. It's pretty obvious (and I think this guy knows it, based on the interview) that people want the "digital experience" for which he's trying to create a standard and therefore an opportunity, and people are trying to make it happen on their own, and even having limited success (I must admit that my own music collection is more portable than it has ever been and more accessible in the process, and I've done the same with my movie collection).

      The problem is that it's too little too late. He mentioned the stalemate he's trying to resolve, but I don't see it resolving his way. For one thing, I'm not jumping on his bandwagon without at least some solid clarification, and if he and the content producers/distributors want to get my money, they must give their part of the compromise, whatever that may be. I'll give my part, I'm offering it! But I want something in return, and if there's anything I've learned about the content producers/distributors, they need to give first. 'Cause if they don't, then I'll give and give and give, and they'll take and take and take, and before you know it I've given them everything for nothing in return.

      Compromise or obsolescence will resolve this stalemate, and neither side seems to be willing to compromise at this time. Maybe if the RIAA and MPAA got a little less agressive and a little more giving then we'd give right back. Maybe. At least with the RIAA and the record labels we can (and are!) starting to take steps to render them obsolete. You'd think that makes compromise inevitable, wouldn't you? ;)

      As far as actual formats go, I don't think I'd mind a whole lot having music files that couldn't be played after a period of time. Nor would I mind if my copy couldn't be played by someone else. Not a whole lot at all, in fact. What I do mind is that all the DRM schemes so far proposed require closed source phone home software. For my own sanity and conscience I require software installed on my computer to come with the source code, or at least that it's readily available. And I also require no phone home software that might phone home with my privacy in its packets. And I also require that if software does phone home, I know what it does, what it sends, and so forth (hence one reason among many why I require the source code to any program I install on my machine). If they can make the format work and still meet these requirements, I'm giving and they'r

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
  2. Re:YAGDS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    If humans can write it, humans can break it.

    Yeah? Try decrypting PGP when you don't have the right key.

  3. Re:YAGDS by abiggerhammer · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Takes a Long Goddamn Time, but it can be done.

    Besides, the question's irrelevant. DRM via encryption to a subscriber's key? Whatever. If the subscriber can generate a listenable stream (which is, duh, kinda the point), then it's possible to turn that stream into a non-DRMed file. Anyone with legitimate access can create illegitimate access if they're so inclined and have the technical skill to do it. And, if the readership (postership) of /. is any indication, there's no shortage of people who are so inclined.

    --
    Dance like nobody's watching. Sing like you're in the shower. Fuck like you're being filmed.
  4. Any "standard" which you need a licence for... by jonwil · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Any "standard" which you need a patent licence for is not a good standard.

    Any standards body worth dealing with should insist that patent holders licence the patents such as is necessary to implement the standard with no royalties.

    1. Re:Any "standard" which you need a licence for... by boer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And why is that? Because everything should be free? The good side in licencing is that standard compliance can be forced, and no dominant company can distort the standard they way they please.

      --
      (This sig intentionally left blank)
    2. Re:Any "standard" which you need a licence for... by thesaur · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree, for the most part. A patents-based standard is should be one that is a standard because of it's briliance. Not because it is forced down people's throats.

      In this case, of course, as has been pointed out, they are trying to develop what RIAA wants, though it is already out there. I'm sure that even Microsoft's WindowsMedia format is more likely to become a standard. But neither WMA nor MPEG is likely to beat Apple's AAC format. Let's face it: Apple has pioneered the online music store just like Amazon pioneered the online book store.

      There is always the possibility that something as popular as MP3 gets hijacked. Let's look at an example: MP3.com. It originally offered a possibility of listening to music that you own... until RIAA and the labels shut that part down. Then they created a library of independant music. Where's MP3.com now? I've not visited it more than once since it was last sold. Basically the same thing is happening to Napster. The new napster isn't getting much going, even though they had the name.

      MP3s will quickly lose popularity if they are hampered. Same with any format. Who wants to read books that are chained to the library?

    3. Re:Any "standard" which you need a licence for... by JamesKPolk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Patents and standards are opposing forces.

      The point of a standard is to get everyone to use it.

      The point of a patent is to grant a monopoly.

      If you want everyone to use something, it's stupid to then claim a patent on it.

  5. Re:YAGDS by JamesKPolk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wrong. The point of DRM is to prevent the adversary (the customer) from circumventing the copyright protection and distributing the work unprotected.

    The iTunes crack does exactly that.

  6. Re:YAGDS by Ogerman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have yet to see the uncrackable DRM scheme, and no reason to assume one can ever exist.

    Lets be even more to the point: It is physically impossible for there to exist a non-proprietary DRM scheme. DRM, by very nature, is security through obscurity -- hiding the secret key *somewhere* on the users' own machine. DRM is incompatible with the concept of general purpose computing and most certainly with Open Source software. As an analogy, think of those old pay-TV decoder boxes that were filled with epoxy or tar to prevent tampering.. Is that what you want your computer to become? Just say no to DRM-laden hardware, software, and content! And do support independent media!

  7. Re:What about Ogg Vorbis by October_30th · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1) Windows Mediaplayer doesn't come with it.
    2) For Joe Blow MP3 is a synonymous for all digital music.
    3) Joe Blow doesn't care about patent issues as long as he gets to listen to music on his Windows.

    --
    The owls are not what they seem
  8. How about listening? by InternationalCow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I find it interesting that the guy says that they don't want to tackle piracy. They want to manage copyright. It would seem to me that both are two sides of the same coin. If you violate copyright, you're pirating, right? As an aside - I have always wondered how to interpret the act of listening itself in this regard. If I listen to a piece of music a couple of times, I am generally capable of replaying it in my mind. Have I then violated someone's copyright?

    --
    ----- One learns to itch where one can scratch.
    1. Re:How about listening? by evanbd · · Score: 2, Insightful
      If I listen to a piece of music a couple of times, I am generally capable of replaying it in my mind. Have I then violated someone's copyright?

      For any reasonable definition of copyright, you have not. The purpose of copyright is to strike a useful balance while acknowledging the natural ability and desire of people to copy ideas, works, and music, and share them with others. That's what we call culture. At the same time, we wish to promote the authorship of such content and make it possible to make a living at it without undue hardship. So, copyright is a balance between the author recieving payment for the use of their work and people being actually able to use the work. Hence, such concepts as fair use and limited duration of copyright.

      When I see intelligent people discussing copyright while completely missing this point, I am amazed at what a perversion our modern copyright system has become.

      In short, listening to music is not a violation of any sane copyright system.

  9. MPEG 50 years from now? by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 3, Insightful
    What about today's MPEG's 50 years from now?

    Granted MPEG is not broadcast / archival quality (correct me if I am wrong), but regardless there will be a lot of material that exists only in MPEG. Long term preservation and access need to be addressed, and are hobbled by kludges like DRM and vendor lock-in.

    If you don't have the technology to render the file, then it's as good as gone. Even physical safes, lock boxes and fire boxes only slow down an intruder, and are rated at the estimated number of minutes needed to circumvent. Electronic restrictions yesterday are laughable with today's computing power and today's will be laughable with tomorrow's. Even passively, there is a difference: you have to expend effort (and probably money) to dispose of a heavy safe that you don't feel like opening. Whereas electronic documents can be erased with the active motion of only a few fingers or through neglect by letting the physical medium deteriorate or letting the specs vanish.

    Authenticity is not possible either so electronic sources can not be used for authoritative research or testimony. Physical artifacts contain intentional and unitentional combinations of materials and these in turn have specific ratios isotopes which, if lucky, may provide enough data points to evaluate the origin of the artifact. Authenticity would be a much more useful issue to solve rather than pursuing the DRM pipe dream.

    Digital copyright management is not the missing piece that we need. I think Leonardo Chiariglione may have (willfully) missed the implications of networked technologies, and that reform of copyright is needed rather than fighting against the very nature of computing. Earlier leaders and governements fought the printing press, but eventually learned to work with it. He's right though, about P2P and Gnutella like services not being monsters, but effort should be spent finding ways to exploit the strengths of these technologies, not fight them. It would be a long, expensive loss.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
    1. Re:MPEG 50 years from now? by Simonetta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I believe that what will happen is that the current music of today and the next thirty to fifty years will be lost to music-historians hundreds of years in the future.
      This will happen because unbreakable DRM will become routinely applied to recordings while the keys to unlock these recordings will be abandoned by the music corporations as the recordings lose their profitability over time.
      This has happened to a certain extent with early twentyth century media such a silent films of the 1910-1930 era. These works had their media base as a silver-nitrate film stock. When the copyright issues were finally resolved to allow reproduction of many of the old movies of the era, most of the film had decayed in the film canisters into dust. Or they had been reprocessed in order to recover their silver content with the film's movie content assumed to be worthless.
      Another example of cultural destruction is the permanent copyright extension policy of the USA. Old novels and books from the 1920-1960 era can never be legally copied under these misguided laws, and as their paper wears out, their content is destroyed. The one-a-year literary masterpieces that still retain marginal commercial value are allowed to be copied, but the vast majority of books written in this era are disappearing. When the paper disintregrates, the entire era's literary output disappears.
      It seems odd that the Americans would allow the entire literary output of their golden age to disappear in order to protect the copyright of a single company's cartoon character. But it always seems that the Americans are always the last to recognize the long-term value of their accomplishments. In fifty years the only place to get American novels from the early twentyth century will be from Japanese collectors at very high prices.

  10. Chiariglione states, then ignores, the benefits. by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Everyone expected that these technologies would bring huge benefits to everybody along the value chain. Creators would be given new ways to express themselves, end users would enjoy new kinds of experiences, and industries would find new opportunities for business. Ten years later, this is not happening. I don't see any industry that is really thriving on digital audio and video
    Sounds like a myopic view. Creators were given new ways to express themselves and are using them:

    Any band, big or small, that goes on tour has it's own CDs, I've even seen buskers in the subway with their own CDs.

    Old and young people are compiling playlists from CDs they've bought or been given and playing them on the stereo or via a jukebox on their computer.

    Amateur films and short films have been made very easy. No need to book time weeks in advance on equipment costing hundreds or millions. Go see a short film or youth film festival these days.

    Home films and photography have taken off. Even retired people are sending around digital images, raw or touched up, of family and friends. I know people pushing 70 that edit and burn their holiday videos to DVD. Try that with 8mm or Super8.

    Many musical instruments now have MIDI ports -- and they're being used.

    There are more and more Zines on every subject imaginable. 15 years ago these were made with effort, but now there are many tools like Quark, Illustrator, PageMaker, etc.

    Plain old books are being written and published like never before.

    So, yes, maybe industry has missed the boat like he says, but let's not forget that industry is the result of customer demand not the other way around. If no one is buying buggy whips, then stop selling them, look around and sell what people are buying. The end users are enjoying new kinds of experiences as predicted, but some of the former players in industry have ignored or fought the new opportunities for business. Why should they be subsidized with our effort if they cannot find a profitable business model that suits the times and technology?

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  11. No bullshit, just economics by poptones · · Score: 2, Insightful
    He's talking about "peer to peer" in the corporatized domain - where you buy an "appliance" and ALSO foor the bill to help "host" the stuff they are trying to sell. You know... standard business as usual: everyone pays except the people with the money...

  12. DRM is not good for the RIAA by Simonetta · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Although it seems at first glance to be the answer to the 'problem' of people sharing music files, the practice of putting powerful copy-prevention technology on recordings is not a good approach to dealing with the new distribution technology for recorded audio product.
    Assuming that the DRM actually works and prevents anyone from making a quick and clear copy of an audio recording, DRM technology encourages the RIAA companies (soon to be one company with the extensive mergers in this industry) to raise the prices on their products. Since one of the primary reasons that people are sharing files is the perception that the product is already overpriced, this will encourage present RIAA consumers to explore alternatives. Since we're talking the ultimate 'soft' product; music; which can be created by anyone, anywhere, at anytime, and be copied and distributed with even more ease, it is likely that a sizable percentage of the present consumers of prerecorded audio will switch to home-grown or non-commercial alternatives to buying RIAA product.
    Eventually the non-RIAA music scene will develop into the perceived quality level as the corporate RIAA product, but without the legal risk of imprisonment or asset confiscation that follows unauthorized RIAA product consumption. Considering that the non-RIAA music will be significatly cheaper, it seems unlikely that music consumers who switch from the RIAA will ever switch back to consuming high priced RIAA product.
    Therefore the RIAA is dependent of an ever-growing number on young, new consumers. This is not an unreasonable expectation given that the world's population is exploding and 2/3rds of the people on Earth are less than 25 years old.
    However it is unclear how the RIAA will attract new artists to their ranks when the standard contract offered to artists does not offer significantly more compensation over the arrangements that will be developed between artists and audience on the non-RIAA sector. (Except for RIAA superstars).
    The only long-term solution to making DRM work is the make all non-RIAA recordings illegal. Then they will call on their legal staff and law-enforcement authorities to routinely and aribtrarily select random members of the non-RIAA audience for systematic long-term incarceration and asset-confiscation from their families in order to scare the remaining non-RIAA audience into compliance with their dictates.
    Which appears to be only realistic explanation of their current business strategy.

    Jeez, these people are weird and sick.