DCC2 Protocol for IRC file transfers

Joe_Hypnol writes "I just noticed this bit of news over at IRC Junkie. Looks like a bunch of irc client authors (and even more) are putting their heads together to come up with DCC2, a replacement for the the poorly designed DCC IRC file transfer specification. The old protocol was basically based on a usenet post, but this new one is looking like it'll be a full-blown standard. It's currently an IETF internet working draft. Read the press release at DCC2.org."

Comments

This is good

[Anonymous Coward]

With all the attacks on p2p networks, DCC may be more needed than ever.

DCC2

[Tiberius_Fel]

Well, I for one think this will be quite good. It's very frustrating to try to DCC a document to somebody only to have it fail for a variety of reasons. I look forward to improving this standard. :-)

On the other hand, this does improve the IRC-for-filesharing thing that I've seen... way back in the day before Kazaa, my friends used to pick up their movies etc. from IRC channels... so this will facilitate that, I suppose... possibly not what the authors have in mind.

I've got an idea

[ThisIsFred]

Let's dump DCC (which isn't that bad, except for the TCP ports) and FTP, and come up with a decent transfer file replacement One that doesn't need 10,000 free ports, special firewall tuning, works through a layer of encryption without problems, but still doesn't generate a lot of overhead.

Re:I've got an idea

[Simon (S2)]

Let's dump DCC (which isn't that bad, except for the TCP ports) and FTP, and come up with a decent transfer file replacement One that doesn't need 10,000 free ports, special firewall tuning, works through a layer of encryption without problems, but still doesn't generate a lot of overhead.

hey! you are talking about ssh - sftp!

PIrates rejoice

[toupsie]

Is DCC used by anyone else but file pirates and music traders? I mean really. Come on. Don't lie. Oh sure, you know a guy who has a cousin with a good friend that has a girlfriend whose brother distributes his folk music on IRC but besides that, anyone else using DCC for legit transfers?

Re:PIrates rejoice

[DJayC]

Um, yeah. Just about any time I need to send a file to a friend on IRC I would use DCC. For example, "Hey take a look at this logo", or "You need help? Send me your .cc file".

It seems like you have only been exposed to bots using DCC to send you files. You are talking about someone who distributes music on IRC or whatever, when in reality DCC is more than a means for bots to offer files. Normal users send files too... it's just like sending an email attachment.. you use those don't you?

Re:PIrates rejoice

[toupsie]

It seems like you have only been exposed to bots using DCC to send you files. You are talking about someone who distributes music on IRC or whatever, when in reality DCC is more than a means for bots to offer files. Normal users send files too... it's just like sending an email attachment.. you use those don't you?

If I want to send a file, I am going to use a better method than DCC. Once again, we have the 1% trying to parade around as the majority. Don't insult our intelligence here, a vast majority of the files transfered by DCC are pirated. You log files aren't the size of DVD rips unless you don't know how to get things working.

Re:PIrates rejoice

[Kjella]

If I want to send a file, I am going to use a better method than DCC. Once again, we have the 1% trying to parade around as the majority. Don't insult our intelligence here, a vast majority of the files transfered by DCC are pirated.

And what "better method" of sending files would you suggest, that is not used by pirates? FTP? HTTP? IM? E-mail? Newsgroups? P2P networks? SSH? Bullshit. They're all used for piracy. And the $100,000 dollar question, if it's that much better, why aren't the pirates using it as well?

I think that if you made a survey, you would find that a damn large part of Internet traffic is caused by piracy. Should we just disband the Internet then, all lines, all protocols, because if we help it evolve we help piracy? Give me a break. Don't insult our intelligence by pretending that improving DCC in any way makes you responible for piracy. Go sue the US DoD for creating the Internet if you do.

Kjella

Re:PIrates rejoice

[pomac]

Is there any filetransfer protocol around that ISN'T used for sending just about anything?

Otoh, dcc isn't as efficent as some, it has size limits which some doesn't have. IMHO if someone wants to download shitloads of things they either
a, use a efficent protocol for it
b, go where there are alot of users

Irc fullfills b.

But irc isn't Direct-Connect. It's not p2p either.

Re:PIrates rejoice

[CTachyon]

Don't insult our intelligence here, a vast majority of the files transfered by DCC are pirated.

A vast majority of files transferred by Internet are pirated. A friend (who just left the movie scene) and I (a neutral observer) once computed that high-level piracy (raced FTP sites and the like, mostly sitting on fat telecom links "borrowed" by otherwise legit admins -- the sort of piracy that the FBI didn't know existed until recently) consumes about 50-75% of all bandwidth on the Internet. When a single download thread for a single person can transfer a 3 SVCD movie in about 2 minutes, and there's other people doing the same thing on the same site, and there's dozens of sites out there, you know that there's some serious bandwidth utilization going on.

They really should fix IRC instead

[lokedhs]

Anyone who ever implemented the IRC procotol knows just how crappy it is. Here's a few reasons:

Nicknames use SW-ASCII, yes that's right, the swedish variant of 7-bit ascii. That's the reason [ and { are equivalent, as is | and \.

There are no standard encoding. Most people use 8859-1, other languages use, well, whatever they happen to agree on. A number of other channels use UTF-8 which is the best solution (supports all languages) but is not supported by mirc.

Takeovers, splits, need I say more?

Server desync

I don't think DCC is a problem at all. It's all the other crap that needs to be fixed. Once you do, I'm pretty sure implementing good file transfers will be quite simple.

Getting mp3s will be that much easier

[RLiegh]

I really, often do wonder why the RIAA (not to mention the MPAA and the BSA) has overlooked IRC for so long. 9/10ths of the channels on any of the reputable networks are dedicated to illegally distributing mp3z, moviez, warez or pr0n (or some combination thereof).

Now, dcc2 will make all that so much easier; which I guess is a boon for the various networks' profits, but at what moral cost?

Re:Getting mp3s will be that much easier

[strider3700]

I had a buddy get his 98 box owned a year or so ago. He found out when he received a warning from his ISP that "Someone" was considering legal action against him for sharing movies. A quick look on his box showed that there was a bot running there into a couple of hidden movies into an IRC Channel.

Moral of the story is the MPAA at least are going through the big channels and trying to track them down. Due to hacked machines the real criminals will never be found.

Re:Getting mp3s will be that much easier

[\\]

Wow, that post was so uninformed and assuming it actually made me choke.

1. The MPAA, RIAA and whoever else already have people/drones/bots/whatever on many IRC networks. We see them almost every day.

2. 9/10ths of the channels on ANY network, including efnet, quakenet, or whatever are most definitely not warez channels. There are certainly plenty of warez channels out there, but if you think the recent warez group busts weren't at least in part due to irc monitoring, whether it be with clients, carnivore, or both and more, you' are either fooling yourself or just plain stupid.

3. IRC network profits? What are you talking about? Most IRC servers are run by volunteers who want to give something back. I say "most" because I don't know of any IRC servers that are run for a physical profit of some sort. Do you?

Moral costs, feh. Whoever modded you Insightful needs to be blindsided with the cluebat.

No mIRC support?

[Kjella]

Like it or not, pretty damn many use mIRC. Under community members, there's noone from mIRC there. I would hope that is temporary, because DCC really could use replacement. I'm now firewalled off with no incoming ports, two years ago I was NAT'd with no incoming ports.

It leads to extremely stupid things like being able to recieve but not send, even though it is obviously possible since once the connection is established, the data should be able to flow either way. The other big alternative is FTP, which also is horrible at dealing with passive mode.

The hilarious part is that the reason corporations, universities etc. seem to give for it is p2p - when they get around this trivially. On a network, someone will be active and there's no problem. You're only being a major pain in the ass for me when I want to do something with a friend that also has no open incoming ports.

Kjella

Re:Hmm...

[AllNicksWereTaken]

Then it wouldn't be DCC anymore. DCC is for direct connections.

You forget the benefits of an open protocol

[CdBee]

IRC may be ugly, but like Windows, it's here because everybody uses it.

Its massively cross-platform-available and easy to integrate into messaging apps.. That's worth a lot more than the costs incurred by its kludged technology

As an IRC Admin...

[Dunarie]

As an IRC Admin, all I have to say is, just fucking wonderful, all IRC needs is a better file transfer method, to bring in more scum, and drag IRC down even more. IRC Stands for Internet Relay CHAT, and while it's nice to have a way to transfer files (like on most IMs), it's gotten out of hand, and it's doing nothing but hurting us chatters on IRC. I like Kazaa, WinMX, and the like as much as anyone else here, but I also love being able to chat on IRC.

When I tell people I use IRC, more and more people say something along the lines of "yeah, much better than kazaa" or "I could never figure it out, so I still use kazaa myself", it's quite sad. ISPs hate IRC, and it's hard to find any that will let you host IRC servers, if not because of it's rep for illegal MP3s, warez, ect, it's cause of the DDoS attacks IRC attracts because of the extra scum file transferring brings.

And now they want to improve DCC, JUST FUCING WONDERFUL!

Re:As an IRC Admin...

[liquidsin]

How is dcc bringing down irc as a whole? The only large scale filesharing I ever see on irc is on small networks, usually set up explicitly for filesharing. Even when it's on a major network (efnet, dalnet, undernet) if you're an admin and it pisses you off that much, k-line everyone in a filesharing channel and you'll just be helping your network (more room for chatters to connect). As for the actual file transfers, they don't have any effect on your network. They're sent straight from client to client without the network routing anything more than the original negotiation of finding each other.

Re:As an IRC Admin...

[grazzy]

do that and have your server ddosed back to the stoneage.

Re:Where's IRC2?

[Evil Adrian]

I think we need SMTP2 before we worry about IRC2...

Re:Oh, please!

[Anonymous Coward]

"We are not stupid here, we know what IRC and DCC is mainly used for -- just read the other posts on this topic. Please don't insult our intelligence here on Slashdot."

If it is efficient pirates will use it as will porn peddlers. Who the heck cares what DCC or heck even IRC are mainly used for? I use IRC for tech support from like minded users. I have also benefitted from people sending me a config file or document. At the end of the day the I am better for the tech being there even if people like you want to raise your noses in the air and haughtily dismiss IRC as a bastian of pirates to the exclusion of all else.

My real problem with your sanctamoneous argument is it may lead others in authority to stifle a source I benefit from. Your arguments are like those of the antigun nuts. Guns are used in crimes lets ban guns. Meanwhile I live in a society that has tight legal controls on guns and yet people are still being shot in the streets. So what then is the solution? Is it to search everyone or maybe ration out movement? If it can be used to pirate software it will be used to do so. So go after the pirates and leave the rest of us alone.

M. Kenery

XMPP Worse Than IRC, IMO

[RAMMS EIN]

Honestly, I don't think XMPP is going to help a lot. I am not an XMPP guru, but from what I've seen it looks less efficient than IRC.

The main problem with IRC seems to be the enormous load that is put on servers, mainly caused by using the servers to relay client to client messages.

There is a solution to this problem: DCC. Using DCC, clients connect directly to one another, and thus spare the servers. With a little extension, DCC can also be used to implement chat rooms client-side, so that server relaying of messages is only needed for initially connecting the clients to one another.

Of course, we could design a protocol specifically for the purpose of connecting clients to one another, and I think that would be a good idea. Jabber and IRC both do a lot more than this, which makes them, in a sense, bloated.

It cuts both ways.

[Ayanami Rei]

Anime Music Videos, demoscene compo-paks, and other nicities are often found on P2P networks too... it's all those people trading their WaReZ and illegal MP3Z and DVD rips on it that are giving it a bad name.

Yaaddaa yadda yyadda. Everything can be used for ill or good.

Re:What is the point?

[iamriley]

It looks like the big thing they are trying to do is simply increase compatability between one user connecting to the other using dcc2.

The point is to let the protocol decide the best way to connect given several options so the user doesn't have to manually try each of the many variants of the DCC command that have been added to the different clients to overcome the problems with DCC (e.g. dealing with NAT).

I do not beleive that dcc2 will have a great difference of quality over the regular dcc but it will have more compatibility.

DCC2 will perform better than DCC in most circumstances. DCC requires ACKs every so often, halting transfer until the ACK is sent from the receiver. Since TCP/IP already guarantees delivery, this part of the protocol is completely redundant, and it can significantly slow down delivery.

They aim to "incorporate new technologies" but I dont see where they are going with this...

DCC2 is both simple and extensible, unlike DCC which, though simple, is not at all extensible. Some functionality that DCC2 could help standardize accross clients are whiteboard sharing, voice/video chat, encryption, IPv6 connections, etc.

--Riley, dIRC developer, Algenta Technical Staff member.