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"Missing Link" In Windows Emulation Unveiled?
ben_ writes "According to this article on inq7.net, a Philippines company called SpecOps has revealed their Project David, a middleware layer that solves the problem Wine has been working at for years and will "enable all major Microsoft Windows applications to run on the free and open source Linux OS".
Further (and more sceptical) analysis at Linux Electrons." I'm with Linux Electrons on this; as nice as it sounds, the information about David comes via Press Release which as we all know are founts of dependability *cough*.
There is an interesting thread on wine-devel about this, basically we just don't know what its going on about:
4 /0578.html
http://www.winehq.com/hypermail/wine-devel/2004/0
stuff
or both?.
I can't navigate into any of these subsections: Project David Overview
David Technology
David Technology Validations
David Development Plan
from the overview page, however if one dives to the source and manually types the address for one of the later pages. the rest of the pages are full of nice stuff like 'WES', 'WACS' and shit like that.
oh and the product itself claims to be a perfect version of what wine tries to be(which can be installed by 'anyone' easily on a linux system, whatever they mean by that).
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
I remember a german compan called Omega that was going to do the same with the MacOS. Bold claims that ended up being vapor. Here is a websie with some info on COS.
Zoid.com
Full text, without comments:
SpecOpS Labs is developing a Systems Level product called David . The primary purpose of David is to
provide a platform, which will serve as a viable alternative to the MS Windows Operating System.
Our first release of David, version 1.0, will be a Middleware program that will sit on top of the free and
open-source Linux operating system, and enable it to seamlessly run most Windows applications. Working in the
background, David will enable users to run their favorite programs with the look-and-feel they are familiar with.
*COMMENTED OUT*
The next generation will, in effect, incorporate the operating system into the web browser, virtually eliminating
the need for an operating system eventually, except to boot the computer and launch the browser.
*END COMMENTED OUT*
David will be configured to be made available for installation either through the internet or from a compact disk
or DVD. It may either be pre-installed by OEMs, or may be easily installed by consumers themselves in plug-and-play
fashion.
*COMMENTED OUT*
David will be distributed to consumers in five releases. See the Information Memorandum within the Investor
Relations section for detailed information on each scheduled release. The David V 1.0 architectural framework has
been validated, prototyped, and copyrighted and has entered the full design and development stage.
*END COMMENTED OUT*
Running Windows Applications on Linux. Most of the popular software applications such as Word,
Excel, Quicken and PageMaker are designed to run exclusively on the Windows OS;
that is, Windows applications cannot natively run on the Linux operating system.
However there are three alternative methods of running Windows applications on
the Linux OS. These three methods include:
*COMMENTED OUT*
the David Technology
Link describes the simulation of the Windows Environment
Subsystem. For a detailed explanation of the other 3 methods,
click on the Our Market
- Competitors section of this website.
*END COMMENTED OUT*
did you check the homepage of project DAVID? especially the development part where they say they're at 0% of dev / engineering.
That is enough basis to say it's crap, since it's nonexistent.
did lindows pull off the 100% magical windows emulation? no it didn't. this system has just as much credibility.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Windows crashing itself instead of corrupting memory or something was a big step for Microsoft. I have a feeling they didn't want to go that way because Windows crashed enough already, but frankly I go days in between unintended reboots on my windows XP system. (Unless Microsoft issues a patch...)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Actually, would this even be illegal?
Yes.
For a start the phillipines are a signatory of the Berne convention and as such have to abide by it's terms.
Basically, they have to abide by international copyright laws.
The article criticizes the techniques that are mentioned in the press release without mentioning that press releases usually not only include exagerration of usefulness, but also embellish how things have been done. In other words, if features are mentioned in a press release, don't expect them in the actual product -- at least not how they were promised or not implemented exactly how they reported. Remember, software engineers don't write press releases (They don't tend to read them, either...).
I hate grammar Nazi's.
You're mincing stories. The NSAKEY fiasco was from a service pack that hadn't been stripped of variable names and whatnot. The windows source was Win2k, though it is supposedly incomplete (Microsoft says so, but i've never seen it, and Microsoft has a vested interest in making it unappealing). MS-DOS 6.22 is also available from what I've heard.
I hate grammar Nazi's.
I was talking about OSnews story last week, it seems they also picked up this article. Anyways their discussion was more mature than the average slashdot one so head on over and read theirs here.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Its not, it was a design decision to give people the speed the demanded from graphics hacks. It was a strategic move to get people into the NT world. Now people are in the NT world and msft is moving to shut down that flaw now that hardware and proc speed is fast enough to handle the performance hit.
Just for reference, a bad driver in the linux kernel can do the same thing, try running a S3 Savage driver in linux, you'll get all sorts of fireworks.
The writer is a Filipino. English isn't a second language to him/her, but the style of English is definitely Filipino English (such as we have Australian English, American English, etc.). I'm married to a Filipina, I've been there, they have no problems with the language. The site means what it says.
We've been discussing this on the Philippine LUG list for a week now; consensus is that it's BS.
Do you have ESP?
The irony (in your statement) is that Windows versions based on NT are operating systems in their own right (Although 9X based versions are GUIs on top of DOS), but Linux is not.
Linux is a kernel. A distro is an operating system.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
There WAS (is?) a link and details on the project plan. A little Google cache searching shows this. The direct link to http://www.specopslabs.com/david_development.htm still works, though it's not available from the home page (AFAICT).
Either way, the timeline breaks down like this (summary);
Phase 1 - 100% - Document theoretical model.
Phase 2 - 100% - Build business case.
Phase 3 - 10% - Produce architecture roadmap.
Phase 4 - 0% - Implement system design.
Phase 5 - 0% - Deployment and maintenance/updates.
This is a reasonable breakdown, though if Phase 4 is the coding stage, they have a boatload of work to do. Since most projects fail let alone products (more hostile environment), I would not be worried if I were Codeweavers, EMC (VMWare), ... let alone Microsoft.
Looks like they are attempting to get investment capital.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
If you have wineX from transgaming there really isn't any work involved. They support a signifigant number of games, (including warcraft3), and have an easy manager (point2play) along with winex3 which is very capable of handling many games.
I do security
americans are often accused of being ignorant of the rest of the world
/ rp.html
well the parent poster, and every one modding him up, are proving exactly that
ENGLISH IS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF THE PHILIPPINES!
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos
someone please mod the parent comment into oblivion, it showcases american ignorance, and apparently, even the ignorance of americans living in the far east!
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
the only reason English is an official language there is because it was an American colony for 60 years.
More interestingly, Spanish is spoken by few people there (although they have spanish names often) even though Spain ruled the area for 400 years.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
Well receiving stolen property is illegal, so I wouldn't be too sure.
It's hard to be sure when you don't know what you're talking about. The equating of copyright infringment with theft is something which is done in RIAA press releases. It has nothing to do with legal reality.
"Intellectual property" is not property in the legal sense. It is not governed by property laws.
Patents, trade secrets, trademarks and copyrights, (which constitute what is commonly known as 'IP') are all governed by their own respective laws and international conventions.
Bzzzt. Wrong.
The (academic) definition of "operating system" is "interface to the hardware".
"kernel" in unix terms is synonymous with "operating system".
"distro" is "operating environment".
If you *really* want a complete rant on this, I have written one, sad individual that I am.
In future, please refer to a recognised textbook (suggestions in the link above) before jumping in.
Linux is a kernel. A distro is an operating system.
And here I thought a distro was a distro. Yes, I realize we need to redefine terms and twist words in order to support the whole GNU/Linux religion, but the outright dishonesty is annoying.
Linux is a kernel.
GNU is a set of utilities and libraries.
RedHat is a distro.
The closes thing we have to an OS on the Linux side is UnitedLinux, but that might better be called something else too.
The problem is, this theory already has flown in "the real world." Check out MAI Systems Corp. v. Peak Computer, Inc., 991 F.2d 511 (9th Cir. 1993). I happen to think it's a horrendous decision, but it's binding in the 9th Circuit and would probably be pretty persuasive in other circuits if they were looking at this issue since Congress' response to the decision (17 U.S.C. Section 117) only addresses lawfully obtained copies.
IANALBITSCH
Am I the only one who read this as "I ANAL BITCH"?
There was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of a bus to never-ever land.
Any bets on what % of David is built on the leaked Win2k code? Not that companies based from the Phillipines aren't inherently trustworthy... I'm just sayin.
The only true OSes from Microsoft are those based on Windows NT, including Windows 2000 and Windows XP.
Huh? DOS is also a "true" OS from Microsoft.
Actually, in XP you should never get a blue screen of death.
Reason: MS apparently decided that the BSOD was becoming too much of a symbol of windows failure, so they make XP by default reboot on an error that would otherwise cause a BSOD.
That being said, XP with good drivers is a vast improvement over any of the 9x series, but still not as stable as my 'nix.
And if you think on the fact that 'nix drivers are often hacked up without much support from the hardware makers... that should say a lot (either that HW makers create crappy drivers, or linux kernel developers are better at them).
However: A lot of calls take weird undocumented arguments that only Microsoft applications use. And from experience in system call interception, if you don't pass them along, the applications don't work. So someone reimplimenting the system calls will have a fun time reverse engineering those weird arguments. (Or, "reverse engineer" them from the leaked source code)
But the major implication of this approach is that you won't get the licensing cost savings, as you will still need a licensed copy of the Win32 layer. Ignoring the EULA conflict issues (running Win32 not on the NT kernel), this will kill any cost advantages.
IBM's ViaVoice is ported to linux and the speech engine is free. so there are linux apps that are voice enabled. there is also a linux distro that's built for the blind. can't recall what it's called.
My keyboads not woking popely.
This assertion is an untruthitude.
First of all, lets define an operating system (roughly, for the sake of argument): The operating system is software used to allow applications a standardized method for using system resources.
In DOS, applications would make calls to interrupt 0x21 to access system resources like files and memory.
If Windows 9X were a GUI that used DOS as it's operating system, then it would use interrupt 0x21 for all of its I/O.
Windows 9X, upon initialization, replaces the context of DOS with it's own. It switches the processor to 386 Protected mode and installs its own set of hardware, filesystem, network, and other drivers. It replaces the int 0x21 interface with its own. Applications use Windows 9X for access to system resources (ram, files, network, etc.) Also, this emulation is miserably slow.
Windows 9X does have code to allow Windows 9X to use DOS drivers (The 16bit drivers, if you will.) However, This is done by creating a virtual 8086 context, and making calls to int 0x21. This, however, is not recommended and is provided for backwards compatability. (Think of it as Windows 9X emulating DOS to allow the drivers to operate.)
Also, Windows 9X will return the computer to the DOS context that it replaced when it "quits". However, that context is not used (with the exception of the above paragraph) for the normal operation of the computer.
Windows 9X has its own kernel, its own drivers, and is very much a complete, functional operating system. Yes, it may be bug ridden and broken, however, it is a real operating system.
Honestly, a more accurate statement. would be that DOS is a bootloader for Windows 9X.
fnord.
You don't think "runs /sbin/init (whatever that happens to be) and handles system calls" is an interface to the user? This is the only default interface that you really get, since the user's shell is specified by /etc/passwd and has no default.
For the actual default interface, there's really only the API, sysrq-commands, and device drivers (including the virtual console stuff). Everything else, no matter how fundamental, is an application and is therefore not between applications.
On the other hand, the combination of a POSIX-compliant userspace and the kernel is also an operating system, because it also performs those functions (more extensively in some ways and more conveniently in other ways). There's no reason something can't be an operating system, if it fits the definition, just because a subpart of it also fits the definition. Any point where there is a complete API layer, such that you can divide everything into system and applications, has a side that's an OS.
Windows 95 was the 100% layer above DOS. Heck in Windows 95 install you can choose to keep program manager and didn't even need to use that new crummy GUI MS was offering. Heck Microsoft still offers program manager in all it's windows versions. Look in the windows directory on your computer and find the file "PROGRMAN.EXE" (I think or somthing very close) and run it. It will look just like the old windows.
Windows 98 and 98SE started to branch off DOS a little bit more but was still DOS based insanely. Windows ME tried to fool people into thinking it was not DOS based by removing the "Shutdown Windows and Goto DOS" menu.
What's sick is Windows XP was the first OS MS produced for the "average" consumer that wasn't 9x or DOS based.
Windows Neptune was MS's first attempt at making an "easy" to use Windows 2000. If you find some screenshots on the internet your sure to see them show off the nice "Add User" menu and such. It was just basicly Windows 2000 Optimized and slapped some more "Wizards" in there to make it easy.
If linux had the power it has now during the Windows 98 days im sure a ton more people would be using it now since Windows 9x was very unreliable and didn't like to be booted for along time. It would slowly get slower and use more memory.
Solosoft.org - Your Online Resource to Nothing
Usually, control-alt-delete, kill "Explorer.exe" in the processes list, then start up a new one with the New Task button works for me.
I agree, though, right now the weak point in XP's stability is Explorer, which still seems to have a few minor bugs. Still, I keep my computer running a week at a time and only shut down on weekends at work. (My home PC I shut down often to save power, so I couldn't say how much uptime it's capable of.)
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