On Gamers Whining About Cheese

Thanks to GameSpot for its editorial discussing the fine art of 'cheesing', and the annoyance of those who complain about it. The write explains of 'cheesers': "These gamers (either intentionally or unintentionally) use the same moves or tactics over and over again [in games such as Soul Calibur II or Top Spin] to defeat opponents and, as a result, are often treated as the redheaded stepchildren in gaming circles." However, he argues: "Repetitive moves and tactics can become annoying, but what irritates me more are the people that whine about them", and concludes by suggesting: "The challenge then, for those who prefer to take the high road, is to find ways to beat them... Don't get mad. Get better." But is whining actually a good, natural part of videogaming?

Comments

Obvious

[Mr.Dippy]

"Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*ck the prom queen" Gamers should grow some balls and not whine. This just helps feed the stereotype that the majority of gamers are 13 year old bitches who spend too much time playing games online and can't handle being schooled by another player and are reduced to speaking l33t in order to seem cool and elite.

Cheesing, gaming and whining

[Anonytroll]

But is whining actually a good, natural part of videogaming?
No, whining is a good, natural part of being a human being. No matter the circumstances, we need to have something we can whine about or we are unhappy (and end up creating artificial problems so we can whine about them).

That said, I can understand people whining about cheese. If someone just acts following a tight formula (that in most cases wasn't even made by them, they found it on a FAQ site) he's somewhere around the capacities of a script kiddie.
However, if they are capable of doing more than just cheesing (and just prefer not to because it just works, not because they are too dumb to do something more challenging), then more power for them and learn how to play (and stop whining because you are not able to counter a tactic that has been used against you several times in a row)!

Spawn sniping

[etymxris]

Note that the writer didn't offer an effective counter-strategy to spawn sniping/camping. I can't speak to the other "cheese" moves he's talking about, but I can certainly understand why people complain about spawn camping. The reason why it is universally reviled is because it degrades the quality and enjoyment of the game. When the game comes down to who can spawn camp the best, then it's really no fun at all. The solution to spawn camping is temporary invincibility. That is, a newly spawned player cannot be injured for 5-10 seconds after spawning unless he or she engages in an offensive attack. (This last part is to stop those that are newly spawned from tipping the balance of power in reverse.)

Absent such technical solutions, admins are free to kick or ban players they see as using cheap moves, and players are free to discontinue playing with those they feel can't play fair. There is no a priori reason that video games have to be anarchistic. What does this mean? Well, it seems the writer of the article assumes that just because something can be done in a video game, that it is perfectly acceptable to do so. But I disagree. Suppose I was playing a real-life tennis match with Sampras, pulled out a gun, and shot him in the knee. Would my subsequent win (assuming I wasn't arrested or handcuffed) be honest or fair? Certainly not.

Similarly, just because we are used to being able to get away with anything in video games doesn't make those things we get away with right. There are already rules against automated helpers in most games. There is thus no reason to assume that just because an action is possible in a game that it should be allowable or rewarded.

Re:Spawn sniping

[AndrewHowe]

Well, what you can do is, while you're waiting to respawn you start whining about their spawn camping. If you whine enough they sometimes stop to whine back. If you time it right you can be half way to somewhere else before they realise what's going on.
Also realise that a spawn camper isn't taking or defending flags.
I don't think spawn camping is necessarily bad. Most people will whine about it, then turn around and do it to the other team as "punishment" anyway.
Another thing, most games allow you to choose your spawn point. If you have only one spawn point left, and it is getting 0wned, then you're probably about to lose anyway... Get over it.

Re:Spawn sniping

[apoc.famine]

There is indeed a vaild reason to code in spawn points - so that nobody spawns closer to major powerups or the best weapons. The problem with random spawns is the randomness of it all - most map makers try to make maps fairly - no spawn point has a major advantage, no team has a major advantage by spawning closer to team-based goals. Randomness throws this out, as well as occasionally spawning people in rather dangerous spots.

There are a few easy ways around spawn camping. First and foremost are server admins who pay attention, and ban lame-ass campers. Secondly, if you have about 2x the spawn points as the # of players, it becomes almost pointless to try to camp one point. Lastly, a couple seconds of invincibility for newly spawned peeps should kill any remaining problems.

Personally, we run two things to prevent spawn-camping - a 2 second invincibility period, and the Matrix Moves. Our mobility is good enough that even if we spawn in where someone is camping, we can usually get away or at least get to a decent weapon.

Frankly, only n00bs camp, and if a n00b camps on our server, they will get their ASS handed to them. About half our regulars would probable smite them with the default weapon, and everyone else would take the time to hunt them down and smite them until they quit playing. We generally don't have to ban people - if a handful of clanners get pissed off at someone, they gang up and obliterate them. There's nothing like spawn-camping with a major weapon, only to have someone sneak up behind you and beat you to death with a melee weapon...

Hahahah

[Apreche]

I'll admit it, I'm a whiner when it comes to cheese. The way I see it is this. If there is a game where cheese is possible. For example, a fighting game. Then the design of the game is flawed. Now if its like a tournament or something with a prize, all is fair cheese away. But when you're playing with friends the idea is to have fun. If everybody just does the cheese move what's the point? There's no fun there, it's just plain stupid. Everyone lines up to push the same exact buttons as the previous guy, and if they don't push those same exact buttons they lose because the cheese is unstoppable. (I know its not always unstoppable, but often it might as well be ).

So, if you have a poorly designed game in which cheese exists and you want to play it with friends and have fun. Don't do the cheese or you're going to ruin everyone's fun. If there is a cheese whore in the current group of gamers you must play a game that has no cheese. So as a whiner even though I'm saying with my mouth "Stop that you cheesy whore!" what I really mean is "ok, this game sucks and has bad design, but we can have fun with it anyway if we don't do the cheesy crap. Losing isn't a big deal fanboy, pick a different character for once".

It's always the losers who whine

[Saiai Hakutyoutani]

Gamers seem to think up an endless number of terms for ridiculing those who beat them, "cheeser" and "camper" being just two.

If anything, I think these people are letting themselevs be fooled by the game. The whole point of introducing the possibility of loss in a game is to leave the player with a feeling of being treated unfairly. But it is not so.

I think the point when these gamers can admit to defeat and say "I got owned" is the point when they'll start enjoying the game.

The thing is...

[nifboy]

The skill required to counter "cheesy" moves often requires more skill than either player actually has. If the "cheeser" had more skill he wouldn't spam one move. If the "cheesee" had more skill he wouldn't be suckered into being killed by it.

(Cue "WELL DUH!" from the article)

The thing is, skill isn't acquired immediately. It's not like you can just "get better" as the article suggests and start kicking ass. If that was the case everyone would be tournament-level material. It takes time, and in the meanwhile, you're faced with a "cheesy" move you can't find a way around.

Plus, fighting a "cheeser" isn't going to increase your skill in the least: The only thing you're going to learn is how to win by spamming one move.

Fix the Cheese

[TwistedGreen]

The first time I played Soul Calibur II was the first time I had played any kind of fighting game since Mortal Kombat. And I kicked ass.

Let's face it, these games require very little skill, and this is no accident. There are purposefully two ways to play: one for beginners who aren't even sure which button is kick and which is punch, and one for the people who spend all their time memorizing combo moves. But the thing is, the beginner's technique is often more powerful than any advanced player's most complex combo attack!

Is this a flaw? No, it's definitely a feature, but perhaps it's a feature that a player should be able to turn off. How about customizable rulesets like in Worms? This is an obstacle that can easily be circumvented if the players really want it. But for now, it is part of the game, like it or not.

Re:Fix the Cheese

[SamSim]

Perhaps you could implement a Tony Hawk's Skateboarding-style system, whereby the more you repeat a given move, the less damage it does.

Cheese, the noob myth

[mateomiguel]

Well, I play alot of games online, and I get to experience alot of gamers. I even run a small gaming guild online. I have always liked to play games against other people, and I usually try to be competitive. I've found that you can always identify newer players because they, uniformly, belive the following things:
1. You have the rules of the game, that everyone knows, and in a computer game they cannot (usually) be broken.

2. In addition to the rules of the game that are clearly laid out, there is another subset of 'unwritten rules' that act much like a code of honor.

3. Each new player has his own little version of these unwritten rules, and cries foul each time that their own version of the rules is broken.

4. These new players that play by two sets of rules consistently, and without fail, LOSE. ALL THE TIME.

Such players will continue to lose until they see the light, and move on to the next level of gaming: playing only by the game's rules rather than their own.

I.E. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CHEESE

Now, I don't know about you, but I dislike losing. If your goal when you play a game online is to make up some sort of imaginary rule-set for yourself and the other people you are playing with, and then proceed to bitch and moan when these rules are violated, then go right ahead and do so. I won't stop you. In fact, I will aid you by becoming the person you can bitch and moan about.

However, if your goal in playing online games is to experience the evolution of learning that good games put the player through; to practice the process of ability refinement, knowledge, and experience in a game; to just become better, then you might want to put that childish subset of rules behind you and step into a truer gaming experience.

I firmly believe that games are thorougly healthy pursuits, and that in them you can practice many of the skills that make you successful in real life in a short amount of time. That is why I still play them, and that is why I try to play every game I play well.