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Rand Report Says Geospatial Data Not Big Threat

scupper writes "An article in Federal Computer Week came out Monday that announced The Rand Corporation has published a report (sponsored by the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency) concerning the threat that publicly available geospatial data on US Government web sites might pose in the hands of terrorists that 'found that less than one percent of the 629 federal data sets they studied appeared to have notable value to would-be attackers', according to the report titled: Mapping the Risks:Assessing the Homeland Security Implications of Publicly Available Geospatial Information. A curious 'finding' from page xxv of the summary not mentioned in the article states: 'However, we cannot conclude that publicly accessible federal geospatial information provides no special benefit to the attacker. Neither can we conclude that it would benefit the attacker.' The release of this report reminded me strangly of the Washington Post news story about a George Mason University graduate student, whose dissertation mapped critical fiber optic network infrastructure."

17 of 167 comments (clear)

  1. Possibilities vs. Probabilities... by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The big problem with terrorists is that they cause terror.

    In this case, we're falling for it. We're having an unrational fear of the unknown. We're worried that in everything we publish, there's a terrorist reading it and trying to use it to their advantage.

    On 9-11-01, they did something we didn't expect. They hijacked planes and brought their on minimally trained pilots to fly them into buildings. We didn't think that was likely to happen... at that time, standard policy during a hijacking was to let the hijacker into the cockpit. We're never going to make that mistake again.

    But think about that, in all of our past dealings with hijackers, we assumed the hijackers wanted to live, and therefore would not crash the plane, nevermind know how to crash the plane into something else. In every case prior to 9-11-01, that was a correct decision. In most cases, we were able to get a majority of the passengers and crew members off the plane alive.

    If a hijacker were to take over a plane today, there'd be much more opposition given to them by the passengers and flight crews. However, if a hijacking team were ever to succeed... now the default response would not be to attempt to reason with them but instead shoot the plane down. 100% of the innocent passengers would be lost, but we would be relieved that the plane didn't crash into a building.

    Hey, wait a second... we're playing the game not to get the maximum lives returned, but instead to avoid the worst-case senario that has only struck once. That's somewhat a broken logic.

    And that's really the culture that's taking over the nation. We've gotten so risk-adverse at doing things that when there's a possiblity of information being used negatively, we're ignoring all of the more-likely probablities that the infromation could also be used for good causes that we'd want to support. It's easier to point at the fear of what could go wrong than the dream of what could go right.

    When a player is at a casino, the lure of the possibilty of a big jackpot convinces them to play games where the probabity of coming out positive just isn't there. Again, it's a case of possibility of an positve extreme case causing the ignorance of a probablity of a negative result.

    Somehow, the concept of multiplying odds by result values is something average people just can't comprehend because emotions get in the way of cold logic... we act based on the possible emotional outcome rather than more likely outcome that logic would lead us to look for.

    1. Re:Possibilities vs. Probabilities... by cujo_1111 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What I want to know is how many more targets or methods the terrorists have that the FBI, MI5, etc. have not even considered?

      Have they considered the chance of a coordinated poisoning of all the US drinking water sources with the Ebola virus (or another virus that would survive the filtration process)?

      I know that here in Australia that there are thousands of kilometres of exposed water pipes (Perth to Kalgoorlie is a good example) that can easily be accessed. With the right tools you could tap into the pipe and put any substance you want into the water.

      --
      If I point out that you are incorrect, making me a foe does not make you any more correct.
    2. Re:Possibilities vs. Probabilities... by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh, it's worse than that. Most of our root water sources are open-air lakes.

      We're basically operating on the theory that public water supplies are safe even from the intentional attempt to poison them because of the theory of dilution. Since the average person's drinking water comes from more than one source, and any one source would take a huge-huge megadose of the toxin (that'd most likely be noticed) in order to survive being diluted. It's highly unlikely a fatal dose would make it into anybody's single glass of water before the alert got out.

    3. Re:Possibilities vs. Probabilities... by Lord+Kano · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In many ways, terrorists are like hackers/crackers. They know the systems and the vulnerabilities and then they exploit them both.

      Hey, wait a second... we're playing the game not to get the maximum lives returned, but instead to avoid the worst-case senario that has only struck once. That's somewhat a broken logic.

      That all depends on how you gather the data set. How many hijackings of American planes since 2000 have resulted in the hijackers letting any/all of the hostages live?

      We can't take the motives of DB Cooper or some radical from the 1960s into account when discussing possible hijackingf of today.

      When a player is at a casino, the lure of the possibilty of a big jackpot convinces them to play games where the probabity of coming out positive just isn't there.

      Stick with games like Craps, or Black Jack where the house's advantage is less than 1%. The house wins on volume.

      Somehow, the concept of multiplying odds by result values is something average people just can't comprehend because emotions get in the way of cold logic... we act based on the possible emotional outcome rather than more likely outcome that logic would lead us to look for.

      As you said before, we had no idea that terrorists would send their operatives to flight school so that they could crash planes into buildings. Well, until they did it.

      Today, if some Saudi or Afghan immagrant tried to sign up at flight school, I'd be willing to bet that the FBI would conduct an investigation.

      We have to find a way to cut back on unnecessary risks without going overboard. I'm personally not willing to give up any of my freedoms in exchange for "protection from terror". But, I don't have any problem with people at least thinking about the activities that they take for granted.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    4. Re:Possibilities vs. Probabilities... by cujo_1111 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think the toxin would do the damage, the wave of fear that would pass through the population would be all the terrorist would aim for.

      Nobody need die, just the continual fear of something happening is more crippling to a population.

      --
      If I point out that you are incorrect, making me a foe does not make you any more correct.
    5. Re:Possibilities vs. Probabilities... by Atzanteol · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wish I could mod this post 'retarted'.

      Why do you feel repeating a line you read somewhere makes it correct in all scenarios? Obscurity has it's place in security. It can do a lot to improve security. One shouldn't *rely* on obscurity, but one shouldn't ignore it.

      If you have a safe to keep your expensive things in, would you hide it in your house or keep it on the front porch?

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    6. Re:Possibilities vs. Probabilities... by Idarubicin · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Hey, wait a second... we're playing the game not to get the maximum lives returned, but instead to avoid the worst-case senario that has only struck once. That's somewhat a broken logic.

      On the other hand, since the hijacking-a-plane-to-use-as-a-weapon was so spectacularly successful the first time around, you're much more likely to see it attempted again. A pretty good counterargument is that passengers wouldn't sit still for such a hijacking any more--then you get into questions of how well-armed the terrorists are, and how many on the flight, and so forth.

      The worst-case scenario also doesn't kill just the people on the plane--it kills two thousand people in the skyscraper you just demolished. So if one decides whether or not to shoot down a hijacked plane, one has to consider the cost of shooting down the plane--two hundred lives, guaranteed--versus the cost of not shooting down the plane--two hundred on the plane plus two thousand on the ground, with some unknown probability. If that probability is greater than (in this example) nine percent, you save more lives--albeit a different set of lives--shooting down all the planes as a preventative measure. How many domestic airline hijackings have there been in the United States in recent years? What fraction have resulted in the loss of the aircraft?

      Which is not to say that I don't agree with the parent post in many respects. The fact that the United States Government has developed a colour-coded system to describe how terrified people should be strongly suggests that the War on Terror is working out about as well as the War on Drugs. I do think it is important to consider all the aspects of shooting down hijacked aircraft, particularly with respect to groundside costs as well as the lives in the air. Publically embracing a policy that encourages shooting down hijacked aircraft may also discourage hijackings in general, though meaningfully evaluating such a claim is virtually impossible.

      I'm also quite certain that the response to a successful hijacking would depend on exactly where the plane was located. If it happened over South Dakota, the plane would get a fighter escort but not necessarily a missile. If the hijacked aircraft were near New York, the response would be more dramatic.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
  2. This is not a terrorist problem by geomon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But it has become a public interest problem.

    Not long ago, you could finally get information from the government without spending several days and gobs of cash. It was brought to you via an innovative system called the Internet. If you were living next to a toxic waste dump, you could do a search on the 'web' and literally dozens of published reports were at your finger tips. At long last, public interest groups and individuals could see the reports the government was publishing about these sites, but were largely unavailable unless you lived near a library that qualified as a federal repository.

    In short, there were damn few access points for information about what the government was doing with your money and the Internet made the barriers disappear.

    Along came 911 and now everything is back to the old days. I publish scads of documents about cleaning up nuclear waste dumps and no one will see them unless they can convince the government that they are not a threat. You can pump your arms all over the place and tell me how "newclear stuff should be off the web 'cause its dangerous", but I'm not buying it. The stuff we are not allowed to discuss is so difficult to extract that even the US government is wondering what they are going to do with it. How the hell do you clean tritium out of groundwater?

    What my colleages and I report on is soooo not a terrorist target that it is laughable. But the information is in geospatial coverages that are now considered off-limits (official use only) to the public. The 911 tragedy has been a coup for those who want to obstruct the public's access to information related to their own health and safety.

    The government just uses terrorism as an excuse.

    --
    "Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
    1. Re:This is not a terrorist problem by geomon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're a lobbiest and you can't explain how 9-11-01 is a reason why your bill-of-the-moment is needed, then you're in the wrong industry.

      Too true. If I hear the phrase "Now More Than Ever" one more time, I'm going to hurl.

      --
      "Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
  3. Public/Private? by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Does it really matter if this information is easily available to them? If these people are willing to put enough effort into things to coordinate the hijacking of several airplanes and flying them into key buildings, I REALLY don't think they're going to have much trouble getting this information, whether they have to kill/bribe/brainwash someone to get it or not.

    --
    Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
  4. Re:I think it still is a threat by cft_128 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well yes, it is a threat - so are the AAA maps, tourist gides and almanacs, should we regulate those, demeand photo ID with biometrics to purchase a map? (I know, the FBI and Almanacs)As an early poster pointed out we play into terrorist hands by being scared of this and limiting our information that is available.

    --

    Underloved Movies and Pub Quiz: donotquestionme.org

  5. He who protects everything... by tsotha · · Score: 5, Insightful
    ...protects nothing. We would be far better off not worrying about the small and mid-level threats and concentrating on the big threats, like dams. If someone sliced through fiber networks it would be profoundly annoying, but nobody would die.

    If we spread our attention and resources too thinly, though, any target becomes accessible.

    Terrorists have to have large-scale loss of life to generate the headlines they need for fundraising. I wouldn't worry about infrastructure (even vital infrastructure), since it's too hard to explain to uneducated fundamentalists why snarling up internet traffic is a victory for Allah.

  6. RAND, other stuff by Merovign · · Score: 5, Insightful

    RAND hasa bit of an uneven history. I wouldn't even call the right wing so much as establishment/pol/mil/industrial complex wing. This is probably on honest report on the part of the person who made it, but it does smell odd from this distance.

    Fundamentally, I think they're right on this (and privatizing schools :), the targets terrorists want to and may actually try to hit are pretty well known and not at all hard to find. Stuff in the middle of nowhere is pretty low on their list.

    It's also pretty unlikely that the punks will get their hands on a launchable ICBM or suchlike.

    That being said, I'm trying to think of why I would need GPS coords for cabinet offices or suchlike. It's a pretty limited use, I'm not sure it would be worth doing, especially with My Tax Dollars (I know, pennies, but it's the principle).

    Obviously if you have a sensitive (NSA, Weather mountain, Federal Brocolli Pricing Board, etc) site, don't put GPS coords on your website. Duh.

  7. Actually, it's common sense... by the_skywise · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My first knee-jerk reaction upon reading the Slashdot summary was:

    "We find that this information isn't really important to terrorists"
    >boom
    "oops. uh... guess we were wrong..."

    But after reading the article it sounds like they're making a perfectly valid statement. Sure, some information like large military bases off the beaten path shouldn't have their details published. But it makes no sense to remove maps of public utility Nuclear Reactors because that information is commonly available from about a dozen other sources. Like, street maps! So removing it from the federal records doesn't make it "secure". Or from the example in the article where the feds removed offshore oil sites from their public records. Turns out Scuba diving maps sold to divers were showing where those were ANYWAY. Rand is calling for the government to redefine what needs to be "secret" and it it does, work with local companies to have all sources removed.

    Where is planet Kamino, anyway?

  8. Dont hold it back by GISGEOLOGYGEEK · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Speaking as a GIS tech/programmer, and geologist ... holding back geospatial data from free public use will hurt the enonomy far more than any of those imagined threats. If a terrorist really wants to know where a target is, he can just wander on past with a GPS.

    If the US government really cared, they wouldn't have turned of the 'selective availability' distortion that used to reduce the accuracy of common GPS units from a nice 10m accuracy down to an annoying 100m.

    I think history has proven that at least so far terrorists attacking the US have preferred large symbolic targets, the kind that you can't hide, where openly available geospatial data is irrelevant.

    And consider that having as much data available as possible to the public enables all kinds of value added / data mining uses to crop up that the data owners might never think of themselves. There are many business models out there working right now, feeding families.

    Open free exchange and full interoperability if geospatial data is the future. It is happening now through the Open GIS Consortium, GML, and through free open source programs such as Grass, and MapServer. Good things happen when the right people have easy access to your spatial data.

    Do your part! set up a MapServer WMS server today, make your spatial data available to the world yet still maintain control (the server passes out raster map layers that become part of a user's raster map, no one gets your valuable vectors)

    --
    George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
  9. New TerraServer data "cleansed" by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe they don't think the data is a threat because they've already had their way with it before it's made publicly available. Take this TerraServer shot of of the US Capital using the new .25 meters / pixel USGS natural color data set. The Capital and Senate / Congressional office buildings are mosaic'd out!

    1. Re:New TerraServer data "cleansed" by Teddy+Caddy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So what? Point your missiles towards the mosiac'd out buildings.

      Or, how about pulling out a USGS topo sheet from 1983 and finding the buildings the old fashioned way.