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Paypal Deals Blow To Freenet
hankaholic writes "I was checking into the latest progress of the Freenet project when I noticed a disturbing note on their homepage: 'Paypal has frozen the account we use to accept donations over the web, they refuse to give any reason other than "use of an anonymous proxy" [...] all of the projects subscriptions have been canceled which is a significant setback. Other means of accepting donations, including E-Gold, are still active.' Paypal is sending them a check for their remaining balance. The news update on the Freenet homepage also includes contact information for some people at Paypal."
I mean, Come on, Paypal, you of all people should know better! (FP?)
This sig no verb.
Absent a satisfactory response from PayPal, Slashdot should stop accepting PayPal to pay for subscriptions.
Floating face-down in a river of regret...and thoughts of you...
why do people put up with this crap?
i refuse to get paypal for the simple reason that one small complaint (which paypal won't divulge) can lead to them freezing potentially thousands of dollars.
they are NOT a bank, and don't need to be accountable! yet they offer bank like services...
Freenet is a p2p pioneer - it actually came out before Gnutella did, and only one month after Napster launched. I like the applications that use it like Frost as well. Of course, a project like Freenet takes a lot of development time, needs lots of high-bandwidth 24/7 nodes running it and updating, and pile all of the authoritarian, anti-freedom people on top of that and you can see why awesome things like Freenet have trouble getting off the ground.
It's unfortunate that my programming skills are such that I can't make much of a contribution to Freenet - and that my monetary situation is such that I can't afford even a small donation. My programming skills are improving however, and perhaps my monetary situation will improve as well. I enjoy developing p2p applications because it is intellectually challenging and also because I feel its ultimate aims are good. Not all problems can be solved technically though. A boycott of sorts might be good - perhaps there should be a campaign to use eGold instead of Paypal for paying, and let Paypal know about it. Not only could people receiving money stress eGold, or some other competitor, or even drop Paypal, but people contributing money can refuse to use Paypal. I'm really sick of all of this crap!
Well, yes, I'm sure that ebay wouldn't want to have anything to do with a topic so controversial as pornography or sex. Certainly they would be very careful about products that were probably not legit in such areas. And certainly, they wouldn't want anything to do with dubious internet privacy software.
I think that if ebay is concerned about such issues, it's in a direct relation to profit/controversy... guess that freenet just isn't profitable enough for them.
Paypalsucks.com is sponsored by Paypal's competition. Anyone who disagrees with the moderator has their IP address blocked from entering the site. Most thos that post are spazz freaks who couldn't handle a normal transaction anyway.
An eye opener about PaypalSucks.com
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
When I first heard of FreeNet I thought, "Wow what a cool idea!" I downloaded the software needed to make a node, and made one, and ran it for about a month. Then one day I started browsing around on it... and like someone said above, there were links that claimed to be kiddy porn etc. I never clicked on them - but that's what they claimed to me. I shut my node down, removed FreeNet, and haven't looked back. The idea is a great one, but as usual the humans involved fucked it up and corrupted it.
The Freenet project leaders have said they've never logged into PayPal through a proxy. Maybe someone else was trying to brute-force the project's PayPal password through a proxy? Maybe a large percentage of Freenet's donors, being generally privacy-minded types, used proxies when they logged into PayPal to send money to the project? PayPal is known to freeze accounts which have been sent fraudulent funds, whether they know it or not; maybe now they're freezing accounts which receive funds sent from someone using a proxy.
I really hope PayPal provides an official explanation.
Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
Refusing service is one thing. But the main reason people are pissed about paypal is they have a tendency to refuse service..*and* not let you get your money out of your account.
Happened to two of my friends. One had over $5000 in there for a couple months before they decided that no, he didn't actually do anything wrong and wrote him a check. This is definitely a company that needs some more regulation. It looks like a bank and acts like a bank. But it isn't governed by any of the laws that real banks are.
Terminating an account and mailing you your balance is fine. Annoying, but fine. Holding your money hostage? Definitely not ok.
That said, with the number of people this happens to, you'd have to be a retard to keep money in the account. I use paypal, but *only* via credit card and I sure as hell don't leave any money with them.
PayPalSucks.com is certainly a shady company. To find out why, go to adzoox.com/paypalsucks.html
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
PayPal isn't a bank, #1.
How about having a bank not only freeze your account, but bar you from getting an account for FIVE YEARS?
Yes, it's called "ChexSystems" - a private company. US Bank will throw you into ChexSystems for very minor mistakes, even if you pay them off. I closed my US Bank account years ago, but a check for $20 went through after it was closed. US Bank did nothing to notify me. No letter, nothing.
Finding a bank that does not use ChexSystems is next to impossible.
That sucks far worse than PayPal, to say the least.
PayPal notified my one company, Psychotropics Cornucopia, Inc. http://www.psychotropics.org/ , Thursday May-15th 2003 via a "canned" email (see below for the full text of it) that stated in part: "Due to the severity of the violation, or your accounts history of repeated violations, your account will be permanently locked".
... doing so can be disaster ... many folks think the above can't happen to them until it does, then it's too late.
The only email notice we received from PayPal/Ebay terminating our account - no advanced notice, no discussion, just abrupt termination.
------
> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:52:54 -0700
> To: Ronald Bennett
> Subject: PayPal (KMM30070882V34963L0KM)
> From: "customercare@paypal.com"
> Reply-To: "customercare@paypal.com"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset = "us-ascii"
> X-Mailer: KANA Response 7.01.102
> Message-Id:
> X-UIDL: [4O"!%U*!!oXj"!SHg"!
>
> Dear Ronald Bennett,
>
> We regret to inform you that your PayPal account will be permanently
> locked for the following reason:
>
> * engaging in activity expressly prohibited under the Acceptable Use
> Policy.
>
They further stated that we violated their Acceptable Use Agreement by selling illegal drug paraphernalia. It's obvious from their "canned" email that no one from PayPal ever actually examined our company, our many services, nor our past PayPal transaction history. We only sell advertising, videos, and memberships (non-adult) - NOT pipes, etc.
We opened our PayPal account back on June-21-2000 and in that time we *never had any disputes* and we *never had any reversed payments* - an amazing record given our activity. We had a "Business account" (which costs much more than a personal account) with PayPal and yet they never attempted to call us nor email us regarding their actions until after they terminated our account; all they sent was one brief automated email - not exactly customer service.
We requested more details from them regarding why our PayPal account was abruptly closed, but we never any response other than automated emails that mentioned nothing we didn't already know. PayPal was very convenient and served us well for nearly 3 years, but no more.
Our experience should serve as a warning to others who rely on PayPal
On the bright side, we'd already begun phasing PayPal out prior to them suspending our account, but I personally know of several people who have lost substantial amounts of business due to PayPal "problems".
Ron Bennett
I have said it before and I will say it again.
What we need is a replacement for paypal that is just as easy to use (e.g. for payments online etc) but which follows banking rules and doesnt do the crap paypal does.
As for paypal itself, if they were more open about account freezes and gave people a chance to sort things out, they wouldnt get anywhere near as much flak.
One of the biggest reasons for account closures is this:
person a pays money into a paypal acct
person a then pays person b
person b either leaves the money in their paypal acct or takes it out and into their regular bank
person a then (for whatever reasons) issues a chargeback or bank thingo and wants their money back. Paypal now freezes the account (and often the bank account and such as well) of person b while they sort out the whole mess.
What paypal should do is to tell person b that person a has done the chargeback and now wants their money back. That way, person b can give paypal such money as is necessary to resolve the chargeback with person a's bank and the whole issue would sort itself out.
Another good idea if you use paypal is to set up a seperate account just for dealing with paypal. At any given time it should only contain money about to be transfered into paypal or money thats just been transfered out of paypal. If you transfer money out of paypal to this account as soon as you get it then transfer it straight from this account to your regular account, paypal cant touch it.
So I cancelled my paypal account in protest and gave them my reasons in their survey. Did you?
Credit card companies are one of the few organizations who almost always side with "the little guy." Having had some bad chargeback experiences, I can say that the CC companies are real hardasses when it comes to being even-handed. They will almost always side with the cardholder, even with a total lack of evidence from either side. Even when the merchant has evidence that the cardholder did authorize the charge, the CC companies more often than not will give in to the cardholder. It's very frustrating.
"Amazon is a standard business, they sell merchandise and they're directly responsible." Not true. They have a network of used product sellers ("Buy it used!") over whom they have little to no control. Amazon still has an excellent rep, Paypal doesn't.
"Pretty much anyone can just hop in and start doing business through them." Exactly, you just pop in a credit card number, pay for shipping, and you'll get your book/dvd/whatever in a few days... oh, you meant PayPal!
"What I'm saying is that when you have so many people from any walk of life, you're going to get a high volume of garbage." You've just described the customers for every single online business. What makes PayPal so special?
"Not advocating them or overlooking their crap, but anyone (or company) who deals with so much bullshit is likely to: 1) have a strict policy, 2) make mistakes. They could be worse and they aren't." Have you read PayPalSucks? They *are* worse.
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
I ran into a problem with Paypal recently, explifying how they're they're there for you until you really need them.
I purchased a product from a merchant online (sleazebag named Big Impressions out of Arkansas (avoid these losers). They took my money and then didn't ship the product when it was ordered. I complained for several weeks and was blown off. By the time I complained to Paypal, it was just past 30 days from the transaction and Paypal refused to investigate because the transaction was 30 days old, so I got screwed.
Based on my research, in the absence of any terms, a merchant has 30 days (domestically) to ship a product, but Paypal requires you to report the problem within 30 days, so by the time the merchant legally screws you, Paypal doesn't have any responsibility to investigate. It's totally useless. Thanks for nothing Paypal!
I installed Freenet and played around with it a bit. While I appreciate what they are trying to do, (free internet and all) I uninstalled it shortly thereafter because I don't feel comfortable with pedophiles using my computer's hard drive as a store for their kiddie porn. Actually, kiddie porn (and the occasional mp3) is about ALL I found on Freenet. I decided that this is a project that I cannot morally support (at least with my bandwidth) and perhaps PayPal made a similar moral decision. It's just like a brick and mortar store; they have the right to refuse service to anyone. I just wish PayPal would be a little more moral with the rest of their business transactions.
A customer deals with many merchants but few or no customers. Of course the vast majority of fraud they experience will be by merchants.
I too have been subjected to PayPal "review" this afternoon. Twice in one day they asked me to re-confirm my personal information, which I did successfully each time. Then an hour later I received an email that they are freezing my business account until I can provide them with:
1. A bank statement and signature card
2. A valid photo ID (drivers license or passport)
Without any warning whatsoever they have disabled any ability to send outgoing payments, but will accept incoming no problem (while it collects interest on their account).
My favorite part?
"Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail to this adress will not be received and therefore, not answered."
No voice phone number to reach them at, not even an email address. Just a fax and a web form. Talk about customer service.
I too will be focusing my business transactions elsewhere.
Yes, but it also means it could be passing, oh, I don't know... information about a planned organized revolt against an opressive government or inside company information from a whistleblower about e.g. pollution of ground water. Welcome to the double-edged sword of truly free speech.
That's certainly your perogative (and you would probably be breaking laws if you didn't). Incidentally, I would certainly also do so.
It's the difference between being a common carrier and not being one.
If I participate in FreeNet, I'm basically saying: "Here is some disk space and network bandwidth, use it for whatever (and I mean whatever) you want -- I neither care nor do I want to know what you use it for.". IOW, I'm donating resources for good or bad.
Not knowing (or being able to know) what is actually stored on your computer gives you (morally, if not legally) common carrier status.
But nice try.
HAND.
I signed up in order to donate a few bucks to Wikipedia when they solicited donations for a backup server.
When you first sign up with a credit card, they don't know if you're using a stolen card so they invented this clever scheme of determining whether you're the real card holder. They charge the card two bucks, and you check your statement and see a charge from "PAYPAL XXXX", where XXXX is a 4 digit code. You tell them the code to prove you received the statement. Neat huh? Yeah, well, I only got three digits.
I tried using the three digits alone or suffixing or prefixing a 0, no dice. Support didn't (or pretended not to) understand the problem. I spent two bucks and got nothing in return. Instead of sponsoring Wikipedia, I effectively sponsored PayPal.
Has this happened to anybody else?
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.