Higher Education for Mentally Handicapped?

Anonymous Coward asks: "I am an autistic high-schooler, who is currently in special education. I am very bright, but I lack the ability to do even very basic math. I am interested in Technology and Computers very much, but after looking at the requirements for a computer science major, there is no way I can do all that. What options, other than college, are available for a good education?"

Comments

Get a book.

[shfted!]

No one says you need higher education to learn what you wish. The best education you will get is an education you are interested. Stay focused on what you wish to learn, find away that you can learn it, and you'll get there. Remember that some of the greatest minds had trouble with simple math. If you're looking for employment in a field, start or get involved in an open source projet, and let your results speak for themselves. Don't be fooled by the elitist attitude that post secondary education is your only option.

Re:Get a book.

[Councilor Hart]

Don't be fooled by the elitist attitude that post secondary education is your only option.
No, it isn't. But it sure opens a lot of doors a lot easier.
The annoying part is that I expect them - on the day that I graduate - to say:
"Here is your diploma/degree, Now you can start learning the things you need to know, and should be able to do."
The horrible part is, that I tend to agree with that. But I sure want that piece of paper. It's a ticket in, and for some things the only ticket there is.

Oh, if you really like to do something. Of if you want to make a profession out of your hobby. Then don't. After 4 years of learning, most people end up either disliking or hating the thing they loved to do.

Re:Get a book.

[shfted!]

Oh, if you really like to do something. Of if you want to make a profession out of your hobby. Then don't. After 4 years of learning, most people end up either disliking or hating the thing they loved to do.

I know that story too well. I really loved comp sci. Even after just two years, I hate it. I'm leaving university after three years of undergrad. It's just not fun any more. I must find new challenges.

Re:Get a book.

[KDan]

And that's exactly why a (real) degree in any subject is worth something on your CV. Because some people just can't stick with one thing for even 4 years - so how can you expect them to stick with one career for 10+ years?

Daniel

Re:Get a book.

[daveb]

maybe your work culture is different to mine - I think I only know two IT people that have been in the same job for 10 years ... and we suspect theyr'e a bit lazy to advance their career. From what I've seen it's the indentured slaves ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h umm loyal unskilled workers that stay in jobs for life

Tech schools

[john_is_war]

There's the option of possibly using a technical school. They tend to be a little bit more hands on so you could probably find a certain path you could take which accomodates your needs.

Another option would be finding a college that has a "Built your own majors" or whatever they're called. Plenty of schools have them, just check around. That way you could just work with your guidance counselor to create a course structure that shys away from what you have difficulty doing.

Re:Tech schools

[Glonoinha]

I think you are going the right direction here. Software engineering as taught under the department of engineering in a university is heavily math based, and thus not aligined with the OP's skillset.

OP: you already 'do computers' to some extent - have someone work with you to understand exactly where your interests are and then decide how to better develop them. Writing web page / scripting languages like HTML with ASP or JSP, talking to a database back end is something that can be done with little or no math - it is more along the lines of text and image processing, with simple addition being the most intense math. Network administration and doing in-house hardware / software maintenance is something that can be done with very little math. Installing wifi networks (including setting up the encryption) or regular router / firewalls, plus removing virus / worms at the small business / home consumer level can be done with very little math and given the rampage Sasser went on, both are in high need.

Your strength, as someone that has acknowledged his Autism, is your ability to reliably repeat a known working ritual or set of steps to a given goal. With a proper and complete set of instructions, you can recreate the procedure with good results. This is pretty much what 'computer stuff' is all about at certain levels.

That said, I have two comments.
First, determine honestly how interested you are in Technology and Computers. At the high school level if you understand and can program in several languages (not the math, but a fairly good grasp of the syntax of more than one language) and have written programs longer than 120 lines to do some things you want to do, if you are completely comfortable with more than one operating system (Windows / Linux / MacOS are readily available to anybody that is 'interested') to the point that you can fix things when they go wrong, or reinstall it without issue, these indicate a strong aptitude and genuine 'interest in Technology and Computers.' If 'doing computers' is chatting in IRC or AIM, playing java based games you find on the web, and surfing the Internet - these are not indicative of genuine 'interest in Technology and Computers.' If you have ever played Solitare on the computer to completion (regardless of whether you beat the computer or not) ... that is a bad sign.

If you are using the computer as an environment, as opposed to using the computer as an appliance - then you are well on your way to being a 'computer guy' and only need to consider one last aspect :

Are you willing to learn all that you can learn, become as good as you can become in computers and technology whatever direction you find best fits your abilities - and then continue to do it for free? If you would still be a 'computer guy' if it meant you would be the poorest person you know, unable to provide for yourself except in the most minimal manner - then I encourage you to pursue it because you would be doing it because you wanted to do it, not for any other reason. I ask this not because of the current economic conditions in the tech field, nor for where I think they are going ... but because even in the best of times tech is a highly competitive field where hiring managers would rather leave a position unfilled for two years than hire someone with zero experience in their very specific niche and let them get the experience over those two years. There are a LOT of very good techs out there making zero dollars an hour so the competition for paying jobs is going to be intense - and as you already know 'entry level' positions don't even exist in this country anymore (in the tech sector.) If your motivation is wealth or even self sufficiency then reconsider your motivations. If you are willing to 'code for food' and love computers enough to do that for the rest of your life - then I encourage you to go for it and recognise that getting paid to do what you love to do is simply a pleasant side effect.

PS - in the context of this discussion 'very little math' means very simple math. Doesn't take differential equations or calculus or even trig to do web pages or networking. Addition, multiplication, and binary/hex math can all be done with the help of a $40 calculator.

Most colleges have programs for things like this.

[Anonymous Coward]

But the real down side is the math. Even networking has simple arithmatic, and converting from base 10 to base 2. Programing is almost always at least algebra even for trivial things.

But, that doesn't mean you're down and out. You can nurture your artistic side, and then there is usability which is a good bit more psychology, or even anthropology than math.

If you want to give programing a try, you'd be the extremely rare exception to whom I recommend something like visual basic as a starting point. I'd go talk with an advisor at a local community college.

If you're still being treated for your condition, I would say that those helping you would have a considerable amount of advise for things that might help you transition into what is a new phase of your life. If you're not seeing a professional, it might not be bad to find one. They can help you become aware of the resources available too you, and provide expertise on how to really play to your strengths.

Even if you're just a guy who can write and has an unabating love of technology, there's journalism, and technical writing. Lord knows most of the people doing these jobs right now suck at it. You might be a superstar.

Animation and video editing are options too.

But seriously, I'd probably do something like take an ASVAB test, or whatever it's called and consult people who understood my condition.

Computers and Math

[flonker]

Computer programming requires a very intuitive grasp of boolean logic (Discrete math), symbolic logic (Algebra) and set theory (Discrete math again). Also, a good short to mid term memory is more important than intelligence. For many people, programming is a state of mind.

For example, the speed of a bubble sort is O(n^2). A trivial bubble sort has to iterate over a list for every element in that list. So, assuming n items in the list, the bubble sort needs to go through the list n times, each time going through the list (in a nested loop) n times. Giving you a speed of n*n, or n^2. Anyway, a merge sort is O(n*log(n)), but it requires 2n memory, whereas a bubble sort is done in n memory. So, which would be better for your application?

Network administration usually also requires a bit of math.

For example, the IP addresses 10.1.1.1 and 10.1.5.8 are in the subnet 255.255.248.0. To do this, I converted both IPs to binary, and found the most significant 0, and then 0'ed out all of the bits below that. Then I converted back to decimal.

(I simplified the examples, because explaining subnets or sorting is beyond the scope of this post.)

In short, I rarely do basic math, but some of the more advanced stuff is critical. I would suggest grabbing a copy of a programming language, and attempting to modify a simple program to do something else, to see if you have what it takes to be a programmer.

I'd suggest Perl, but that's my opinion, and opinions about languages vary greatly. Perl is one of the more natural languages, and may be more forgiving for you. Then again, it may cause more problems because you're not explicit enough in telling it what you want, in which case try Python.

Good luck.

Re:Computers and Math

[lscoughlin]

Suggesting perl as a more natural language is a really wrong. Just -- Wrong.

As you said, programming is a state of mind type of exercise. My experience has been -- consistently, and backed up by classical training, that you do not start people on things like perl which is indescriable.

A simple structured language -- python is acceptable but i'd still suggest good old fasioned pascal. Granted it teaches out-of-style procedural kind of programming, but it enforces rigid structure, is fairly simple and strait foreward, and verbose. These are important things to do when training someone else, or yourself, to program.

You can always move to a language that gives you mor syntactic sugar or a greator depth of standard libraries later, but ultimately the language is restricted beneath all of that to the rigidity of the 1 and 0. Having that firmly in your mind regardless of the $_[~/[...]]/i] syntactical shortcutting and flexability your still operating within that structure.

As far as the neccisity of math -- this depends on the kind of programming your doing. Most jobs these days are business app style jobs. They don't require the kind of math sensitivity that ivory tower programming (Sorry -- I tend to ignore accademic computing), systems programming or game programming require.

Yes the sort question is still applicable, but you don't need be able to determine the O(n) of the algorithm -- you just have to understand what it means and apply it to your problem domain. It breaks down to what philosophy students call first order logic, and mathematicians call boolean logic.

I've been architect and lead technical programmer on a number of different contracts and within my job now -- and i'm degree less -- my credits add up to two minors: philosphy with a concentration in logic and history with a concentration in eastern european.

Perhaps there are many things that i do intuitively, I've not studied those aspects of my style very deeply. But i do know that the focus on math in computer education -- particularly for programmers -- is a bit overkill.

-T

You have to be more specific

[hey!]

When you say you lack the ability to do even basic math, what does this mean? That you are slow or bad at arithmetic?

This doesn't even really mean you are bad at math. There are a huge variety of math related skills that are useful in computers. Geometric intuition is often useful. The abiliyt to make logical inferences is critical. Accurate arithmetic is not all that important -- we use spreadsheets and calculators like most people do.

Generally speaking, if classic autism or something in that spectrum of problems is your issue, there should not be any problem with doing computer science. Working with other team members is going to be your biggest problem. Most work in computers involves interacting with customers and team members, and this can be socially challenging. It doesn't mean you won't be able to carve out a niche in the world of computing, but it will probably be your biggest challenge.

I don't know what you are talking about.

[hummassa]

Higher education makes a world of difference. I wish I knew some way to get this to that guy... Some way to get the "learn how to think". Anyway, in some points, you're not that wrong. Programming is about math, but is about language, too. And intuition. I have an interesting project that will need some hands, I'll try to keep him posted.

Re:I don't know what you are talking about.

[Darth_Burrito]

Some way to get the "learn how to think"

In my experience the number of times someone uses the "learn how to think" argument is inversely proportional to the value of the material they are peddling. For example, at Ohio State, it's not uncommon for a Computer Science undergrad to take 30 credit hours worth of math in a 200 credit hour program.

After having worked for a few years as a developer, I can safely say that virtually all of the material in those math classes was of no direct utility in my occupation. I can't even remember the last time I took a derivative or integral of anything. However, I still hear people proclaiming that these courses are good because they help teach people how to think.

But, my college education seemed to have very little impact on my ability to think or my general thought processes in attacking a problem. In addition, the suggestion that the math classes I took were designed to teach me how to think seems almost laughable. Most of those math classes had between 50 and 100 students and met at most 3 times a week for less than an hour with any given teacher. Not all of the teachers were understandable (bad english). It was more about processing students through an academic machine than it was about teaching them to think. To contrast that, I had a few very influential teachers in high school that had a rather large impact on how I think.

Yet people will still say these anonymous math courses are valuable because they teach people how to think. Personally I think it must be a cognitive dissonance thing with an element of deferral to authority figures. Dr. Milgram says this course is valuable and he has a Phd therefore it must be valuable. I've never used an ounce of calculus since that final three years ago even though I spent $5,000 and 6 months of my life studying high level math. If I didn't invest all that energy into acquiring the content, it must have been for something else. Perhaps I was learning how to think? Yeah, that's the ticket.

Seek a non traditional route

[cpuffer_hammer]

I can understand where your are coming from. I am dyslexic. Basic math is a struggle. I having gone thought tech school then collage I now work as in professional services (programming, teaching, and supporting customers). I am happy with what I have acheaved at work and in the rest of my like.

My thoughts are:
Do not let the math get you down there is a lot of programming and other high tech work in the world that does not require doing much mathematics. Most of the mathematical heavy lifting is being done by the computer scientists. Most of us just need to use the tools they create with some care and understanding to get good results.

Learn to do the kinds of programming your are good at. It may be scripting, or user interface. Or you may find that a very specific type of work is correct something so specific that nobody thinks there is a market for it but by being very very good at it you can make a market for yourself.

Go to collage I took as many computer science courses as I could but my degree is in anthropology. Many days what I learned in anthro is as useful as anything I know about technology.

Do not give, up but also realize that you may not be a RMS or a Linus more than likely you will work very hard to be average. Start by excepting that and make sure you do the other things you want to do in your life.

You like everyone else in the world has to choose a path. If you choose a path you are very likely to fail at you will be very likely to be unhappy (but you can change paths). If you choose a path that lacks challenge and or does not interest you, you will also be unhappy. Finding a path that is challenging and rewarding that you struggle and succeed is somewhere in between but that is a path the you will most likely be happy on.

Charles Puffer

What kind of autism?

[orthogonal]

It's become almost trite to assume that many people in computing -- especially programmers -- are on the autistic spectrum. Usually this means Asperger's rather than "classic" Kanner autism, but in truth, it's not yet clear what bright-line (if any) separates the two conditions, and many studies have lumped Asperger and Kanner autistics together.

The lay distinction is that Asperger's is high-functioning autism, or autism without mental retardation, and in some cases of Asperger's even higher than average intelligence; but while there are more high-functioning individuals with Asperger's than Kanner's, high-functioning and low-functioning individuals with both syndromes exist. A diagnosis of Asperger's, unlike Kanner's does not include late speech or speech followed by a loss of speech, but both forms involve speech abnormalities of one sort or another, and both involve significant social impairment, related to an inability to "read" others' body language or (more so in Kanner's) an inability to conceive that others' perceptions differ from the autistic person's.

In nuerotypical (i.e., normal) brains, the part of the brain called the fusiform gyrus is activated to "read" another person's emotional state from the other's facial expression. In autistic persons (either Kanner or Asperger), the fusiform gyrus is not activated, with some studies showing autistic used parts of the brain used for object processing and others that each autistic individual uses a different brain areas to process facial emotional cues. High-functioning autistics generally explain that they process faces consciously, apparently as part of general problem solving.

Autistics are often seem as having less empathy or "flatter" emotions, although Temple Grandin, a high-functioning Kanner type autistic, reports that autistic have different emotions with the predominant emotion being a pervasive sense of fear. It is unclear whether this fear is the cause, effect, or just a
correlate of, the social impairments of autistic.

Autistics genenerally have special areas of interest which they obsess over, and this is in fact one required criteria for diagnosis.

Autism has only been included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders , the handbook of (American) psychiatry, since 1994, and so was apparently often mis-diagnosed (as depression, schizophrenia, or Pervasive Developmental Disorder) until recently; in many cases, the diagnosis of a child has led to a retroactive diagnoses (usual of Asperger's, as it's more "subtle") of one or both parents. Autism is one of the most strongly inherited neurological syndromes.

For more and more balanced information (I happened tonight to be browsing the journal articles that I cited, thus my emphasis on them) see (as usual) Wikipedia's article on autism.

To the submitter: do you know what form of autism you have?

Perhaps not computer science, but a related field?

[peteshaw]

There are many different roles with the computer field. You say you lack the ability to do even basic math, but also that you are very bright.

I infer that by this you mean that your intelligence lies outside of mathematical skills. Strictly speaking, computer science can be similar to a math degree, and you might not want to go that route.

In business, however, not everyone is a computer scientist. In my experience, that type of a degree is more suited to scientific, engineering, and generally abstract types of programming. This is usually (but not always) associated with some mathematical skills, and a Com Sci degree would help.

In business a huge percentage of the undertaking of software development centers around tasks outside of this. For instance, project planning, requirements gathering, testing, and technical writing are all tasks that are integral to software development, but not neccessarily related to math or 'hard' CS skills.

You could try pursueing a Business Degree, an Informations Systems degree, or even an English degree.

Good luck to you
--Pete

options

[SolemnDragon]

First, hit your local community college. Many actually have programs to accommodate disabilities of various kinds, and you may be able to get part of your courses tailored to include one-on-one training in the learning style that you need to use. You also may qualify for a number of scolarships, by the way, so be sure to check around. There may be special programs where you can get credit through alternate means- which is to say, tutoring, testing, or time spent on certain projects.

Also, look into trade and tech schools for certification programs. If you can teach yourself to do the work, and can prove that you know how, that may be all it takes for some of what you want to do.

There's a lot of room in the computer world and no, not all of it involves math. You probably have some adaptive skills that other people don't have, both from the unique brain makeup and particularly from having to work around it. These can be a big asset when it comes time to develop unique approaches to problems. I'd rather have someone who can think on my team than someone who can calculate- calculation can be done by computer, but originality and creativity are still human-led fields.

One thing is certain- everyone loves it when people show initiative. So don't give up. The strength that it takes to tackle a disability head-on and work on such a goal in spite of it really does get respect in the real world. Above all, hang out where computers are being discussed. Make friends with the local geeks, hang out at tech school info meets, go check out what's out there. You'll find that they're all looking for bright people and willing to bend in a lot of ways if approached in a 'how can i go to your school' mindset. Let yourself be, to some degree, a group project- you will benefit, the school will benefit, and the world will benefit from one more person having one more skill.

Good luck, and keep us posted, all right?

Talk to the schools

[RhetoricalQuestion]

Most universities and colleges have facilities to help people with disabilities who are capable of a university education, but require some adjustments to the standard way of doing things in order to accommodate their needs. You may have to go through some testing to determine what they are able to do for you.

Most traditional computer science or engineering programs do require math -- though mind you, higher-level math is very different from basic arithmatic. While you may not be able to complete a degree in these subjects without math, the schools may allow you to take a lot of the non-math coursework.

You may also want to think about what really interests you about technology -- not everyone who loves technology belongs in a computer science or engineering program. (I graduated with a CS degree, but in hindsight I would have been much happier in another program.) If you like this kind of thing, social implications of technology, interdisciplinary programs like cognitive sciences, etc., are other ways to get into technology without the math.

From a fellow AC

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Well, at the very least, AC means Autistics & Cousins in this case, I've got Asperger's. Here's how I did it, and I fully recommend my method to anybody in computer science: I learned to break problems down into iterative methods, and programmed them into (at that time) a RPN calculator. I still don't have any real understanding of trigonometry besides memorizing which functions are complementary- but the additional algorithim practice this gave me has become utterly invaluable in real-world programming, where I haven't had a single project in 8 years that has used any math more complex than the quadratic equation I used in high school.

Re:Troll.

[arcanumas]

I rarely reply to anonymous cowards, but you got lucky
Maybe i am a bastard,but, surely, no more than someone who is blind and wants to be a bus driver.
Or someone who is autistic and cant do even simple math and want to....

I hate to be an asshole, but...

[dasunt]

If math is your weakness, shouldn't you concentrate on it?

AFAIK, the therapy for dyslexia includes reading lessons. The therapy for severe autism includes dealing with other people.

Personally, I'm pretty shy in certain situations. So I force myself to go out and say hello to strangers on the sidewalk, bore checkout ladies with chitchat, etc. If I ignored my problem, it would get worse. Will I ever reach the level of social interaction the average person has? No. But am I getting better? Yes!

So why are you avoiding math if its your weakness?

If you are really set on college...

[Mr. Piddle]

and seem to be interested in computers, why not skip Computer Science (overrated, BTW, for most jobs that specify it) and look into things like computer-based art, music, or graphic design. Is your issue with math skills with math itself or with abstract thinking in general? Answering questions like these along with other introspection about your interests and ambitions should help guide you in making the right choice. Also, don't forget to plan how you will *pay* for college. Any more than a few years of post-college debt for a particular school means you need a cheaper school. People who allow themselves to get suckered into ten years of loan payments made a mistake and they typically regret it (speaking from experience).

Be your own person

[Brandybuck]

Don't let them label you "autistic". Don't let them classify you "special education". You should be the one in control of your life, not a bunch of school counselors.

Read about the education of such geniuses as Franklin, Edison and Einstein.

OTOH

[hummassa]

I use calculus all the time. And for the last 2 years I've been an business app developer. But I still integrate and take derivatives when I have to estimate how the size of an Oracle table will influence the time a query will take to run. And to calculate short paths when the crappy oracle7 won't optimize something. And a lot of other stuff.
Before that, even more so, because I worked in a geoprocessing program... that calculated loads in the electrical plant of a whole state (yeah, 12 million people). Global and local; dimensioning substations and trafos.

Community College is great... but

[AgniTheSane]

Two quick points. First I think Community Colleges are great. I went to one before I went to a university, but I really disagree with the people who are telling you to start there or at a trade school (which are also great). The implication seems to be that you can't handle a university. You are bright, so try a University first. The second point. I start teaching next semester as a grad student. One of the things I learned this semester is that universities, at least public universities, are required by law to make accommodations for people with learning disabilities. Good Luck

weakness vs. disability

[beeplet]

I think there's a difference between failing to develop a given skill and having a disability that prevents you from developing that skill. From what I've read, people with autism don't learn to respond to social cues - they learn to watch for body language, etc, and also learn to identify those cues with the interpretations other people would give them. It's more like learning a way around your disability than changing it, and that is what I think is the difference between a weakness and a disability.

Shyness, I think, can be one or the other. Forcing yourself to interact with people may help you (and that's great), but it doesn't work for everybody. I have been terribly shy my whole life, and even though I do force myself to interact with people, it never really gets less painful. And I would never take a job that required me to be outgoing because I just don't think that's realistic for me, just as taking a job that requires heavy math may not be realistic for him.