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Web Redesigned With Hindsight

Randy Sparks writes "Tim Berners-Lee has been speaking about his vision for the Web. He proposed the Semantic Web six years ago and it's taken that long for the W3C to ratify his plans for Resource Description Framework (RDF) and the OWL Web Ontology Language (OWL). Effective the Semantic Web is the Web as we know it put into database form and with added metadata. You can read more about it over on MacWorld and see a Semantic Web proof-of-concept at the Web Archive."

11 of 270 comments (clear)

  1. Too complicated to succeed by 14erCleaner · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The web is popular because it's easy to create web pages. The semantic web stuff strikes me as something that only someone with a PhD in semantics could love. IMO it violates the KISS principle.

    --
    Have you read my blog lately?
  2. admittedly by WormholeFiend · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The macworld article isnt very informative to someone who've never heard of this "next generation" web, but it seems like they want to add it on top of the existing WWW.

    Why cant someone just invent a new similar, improved web that is separated from the current WWW, with its own specific browser, and implement the various ins, outs and whathaveyous to keep the riffraff from exploiting it in very annoying ways?

    1. Re:admittedly by spectral · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just because there's a web interface doesn't mean that they're inextricably linked. email works over its own protocols. Just because there's a bridge between the web and those protocols doesn't mean if you redesign the web, you redesign email too. That's like saying if you redesign the web, you have to redesign UPS, since they have a web interface to their shipping controls.

  3. Get Your Big Idea Right by 4of12 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This kind of thing goes to show how much difference can be made by getting the initial trajectory right.

    A few small changes at the start can lead to BIG consequences later as the inertia of the whole mess gets going.

    Anyone else out there with a really great idea? Do us all a favor and think as far ahead as you can before you release it on the world. Even then, it will still eventually not be going in the optimal direction.

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
  4. The flaw in the Semantic Web by gwernol · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The Semantic Web is a great idea. Having consistent, wide-spread meta-tagging of information on web pages we enable a slew of very, very cool technologies. For example:
    • Intelligent search engines that produce much better results than Google etc. because they can index the meaning of documents, not the words they contain.
    • Agent technology that can retrieve information for you, price compare items you are shopping for and automate a number of interesting processes.
    • Automatic clustering of website around subjects of interest to create much richer knowledge-oriented navigation.
    But the Semantic Web project can't succeed as it is currently specified. It is working towards standards for storing and managing the meta-content required for this Brave New World but doesn't tackle the much harder problem of how to create meta-content that is consistent and pervasive. At present this is left to individual web page authors with no mechanism to ensure consistency. Without consistency, the Semantic Web is doomed. If I tag a web page as being about "software engineering" and another person uses the tag "computer programming" the Semantic Web can't tell they are about the same thing.

    In a world where an estimated 70% of web pages don't even have a title isn't it rather unrealistic to expect most web page authors will learn a complex new representation like RDF and consistently tag their pages with it?

    Clay Shirky has a very good article on this. I recommend reading it before you get too excited about the Semantic Web.
    --
    Sailing over the event horizon
    1. Re:The flaw in the Semantic Web by gwernol · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is why groups come up with schemas and ontologies to share.

      But that doesn't solve the problem, it just moves it to a different place. In this case we're just moving the "software engineer" vs. "computer programmer" problem up to the ontology level. How do I map between ontologies? Unless there is a single unified ontology that everyone agrees to use, you have to explain how to map between disparate ontologies declared by different groups. The ontologies will overlap, try to define the same underlying concept in different ways in different contexts and so on.

      Let's assume we have one universal ontology that everyone agreed to use (by the way the Cyc Project has been working on this problem for 25 years and isn't close to creating the complete ontology you'd need). Then all we have to do is assume that every web developer was skilled and disciplined enough to accurately tag their content with the right meta-content from the ontology. It also requires the ontology to be unambiguous and obviously applicable. I'll not be holding my breath.

      This all rests on the assumption that the world can be unambiguously described and that meta-tagging is a context-independent operation. This is a obviously unreliable assumption. A much better approach would be to make context-dependence and ambiguity core assumptions and try to deal with those issues at the most fundamental level. Until the Semantic Web addresses these issues head-on its going to remain an interesting academic project that has no real-world applicability or adoption.

      --
      Sailing over the event horizon
  5. It does keep it simple by truthsearch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The semantic web does keep it simple. It's supplimental to current web pages and is optional. It simply adds more data for computers to read. It's something very basic that leaves the opportunity for much more complex things later. Anyone who can't understand a triple - a subject, verb, and object - probably failed second grade english.

  6. Re:Redesign the web? by Pxtl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Excuse me, but can they stop overdesigning HTML? Its a freaking pseudo-layout language. The whole beauty of it is that complete newbs can learn to text-edit it. Now, with all the crufty front matter, its impossible to hand-write html that will pass a verifier. Many of the more useful layout features that don't have anything to do with style classes are being put into css instead of html proper. HTML is a dead simple concept, and as such should be a newbie tool. Instead, its just getting increasingly baroque. It really doesn't need more crap.

    Now, the http system itself - that could do with some upgrades. More support for "push" content is what it needs - like slashdot telling _me_ when there is new news so my browser can refresh, and sending me a diff instead of the full new page. Or support for distributed file hosting. Or some way to recieve HTTP requests from behind a NAT (even if it requires an external name server to help you along) without forwarding ports to yourself (if thats at all possible). My knowledge of network topology is limited at best, but if I can get ICQ messages while behind a nat, why can't I serve HTML? Its still just receiving unrequested data - messages in one case, requests for content in the other.

  7. Metacrap by fawcett · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Readers might enjoy Cory Doctorow's essay, Metacrap: Putting the torch to seven straw-men of the meta-utopia, on why the Semantic Web will never succeed. His key points:
    • People lie
    • People are lazy
    • People are stupid
    • Mission: Impossible -- know thyself ("People are lousy observers of their own behaviors. Entire religions are formed with the goal of helping people understand themselves better; therapists rake in billions working for this very end.")
    • Schemas aren't neutral
    • Metrics influence results
    • There's more than one way to describe something
  8. sadly... by merdark · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Having access to tons of annotated data is a wonderfull dream. I could see academic institutions going for this, but not corporations for the most part.

    You see, corporations don't WANT you to be able to access data easily. One of the major driving factors of the current web is advertising. Basically, this is something none of us want to see, but with web pages it's easy to try and force us to see it. Properly annotated data would kill advertising as we know it, something the corporations will not let happen.

    Also, corporations do not want us to be able to easily compare data either. Take prices for instance. Many stores have promises like "we'll match any price". This worked on the basis that it's hard and tedious to go check other prices and people will think "well, hey, if they are making this promise surely they already have the lowest price otherwise everyone would be calling them on it". Well, no, most people will not go check for lower prices, and if they do and end up finding lower prices elsewhere, they will often buy elswhere. Easy price comparisons are not something online stores want to allow.

    Ulitmatly, most sites want to force you to look at data they want you to look at (ads). I doubt we'll ever see all web data in a nice annotated form allowing us to view only what we are interested in.

  9. Re:Redesign the web? by Pxtl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, it is beautiful. Why? 'cause it was written by a twelve year old who read a three page hand out her teacher gave her on "how to make a webpage", and she's been learning by tinkering since then.

    People are not coders. People are users. Users want to just use things - not muck around with research, not have to learn whole new lexicons for each task, just get stuff done. HTML is practically the only pure-text system they seem to do that in anymore - everything else is covered in complex guis. To many people, html is the bridge to programming. With that bridge lost, they might never want to use anything that's not pure wzywig, and there aren't many programming languages like that.

    Like it or not, HTML has become the learning ground for many budding computer users.

    My CSS complaints came out wrong - what I was complaining about CSS was that originally, everything that could be done in CSS could be done in HTML as well. You could write proper, stripped HTML and use robust CSS, or you could just do the whole damn thing in ugly, ugly HTML, and still have access to the whole featureset. Now there are features that exist only in CSS beyond simply defining classes of things that already occur in HTML. So, newb html-only users end up with an incomplete feature set. If CSS was more intuitive this wouldn't be a problem, but currently it is far too cryptic to push onto an uninformed user. As a result, learning users stick to pure HTML, and thus are stuck with half a feature set.