Posted by
michael
on from the oh-christmas-tree dept.
BigFire writes "Professor Tanenbaum responds to the slashdot effect and a small critique of Ken Brown's forthcoming book in his followup. A small gem is where he disclosed that Ken Brown can't multiply simple positive integers."
I read Linus' book and heard about the "feud" between him and Tanenbaum... somehow, I never connected that Tanenbaum to the one that wrote my networking text...
Whatever else may be said about Prof. Tanenbaum, I learned much of what I know about networking from his excellent text. It should be said that he is excellent at what he does (that is, teaching students about computers).
-- What we really need is a ten day waiting period and a background check before you can buy a congressman.
There is a difference, though it is often colored by the listener's own sense of self confidence.
In the spirit of AST's baseball analogy, I refer you to the immortal words of Dizzy Dean: " It ain't bragging if you can do it."
We should set up better Open Source Marketing
by
puntloos
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
Trying not to troll here, but this document is not that news-worthy, is it? I mean -obviously- the whole Ken Brown thing is one big Microsoft Marketing Ploy (tm). If a manager 'falls for' (lets assume the Ken Brown book is purely Microsoft Marketing driven) the arguments of the book, he's probably not of the sort to go look for Andrew Tanenbaum's site. These people are the ones that fall for dicy logic (in this case, the "Argumentam ad Verecundiam", or argument from authority, fake or no, the institute sounds interesting)
On the same note, I doubt that very many in the 'Slashdot-like' internet community need extra convincing to believe that the book is Microsoft-driven, not fact-driven.
Therefore the only effect Tanenbaum (and Slashdot) gets from this document is self-defence and mutual knob-polishery. Not that Tanenbaum is entitled to have his say and defend his honor, but there you go.
What the Slashdot/unix/GNU/whatever community really should consider is how they can truely counter the 'lets convince the stupid masses' policy of Microsoft. (yeah I know I sound elitist, thats because I am..)
Seriously though, the more manager types that don't fall for Microsoft Marketing the better, IMHO. But how? I don't think slashdotting works, but perhaps we should set up a more Market-driven avocacy site for open source. Get The Facts! There are plenty of people out there who would have fun with doing some effective marketing here, and could do more for the community than program another random number generator;)
One of the things that strikes me most about Microsoft Marketing is that whatever Article (negative or no) I read online about Microsoft, 8 out of 10 times I see a big blinking Microsoft ad! I can't help but be impressed by that, even if I don't like it.
You're being way too fair to Microsoft. They bought a clone of CP/M ported to the 8086. Then, they sold a license for it to IBM.
In other words, they pretty much pulled a SCO, or at least SCO's stated intention at the outset of the current flurry of lawsuits.
-- HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Re:His comment on Slashdot:
by
pankajsethi
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
I'm not trying to make a hero out of AST, but he has been one of the most influential person in computer science. Not only has he contributed in terms of his creative input, but his bigger contribution is in teaching. His book on Computer Networks inspired me to write one myself.
Have you ever met Tanenbaum? Can you say that somebody is a "prick" just because he is willing to engage in a discussion solely on the basis of technical merits and because he loves one thing and hates another. I'll at least meet the person before debunking him as an egotist.
And Tanenbaum's achievements go beyond Minix. You can find out more if you care to look for his contributions on the web. He doesn't even count Minix as his achievement. The world does not know him for Minix. It was just a nice "add-on" to his operating book.
Have a good day.
I have the PDF of the first 92 pages of the book
by
ValourX
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
... you guys would absolutely not believe the stuff this guy says about Free Software philosophy. He takes every single aspect of FOSS and gives it a sinister anti-business anti-America anti-puppy connotation.
I only read the first 20 pages or so, then I skipped to the bibliography. In over fifty listings, the only real books he listed were ESR's and they're available online. Every other reference he listed was someone's personal homepage or a newsgroup posting or something arbitrary like that.
There will be an article, ladies and gentlemen. I just haven't decided if it should be a serious analytical debunking of this troll book or a humor piece that shows its rediculousness.
-Jem
Re:His comment on Slashdot:
by
Luzumsuz+Lazim
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
Minix... wasn't really good for learning the architecture of an OS.... and people could goof around with it for free
I think, if a professor of mine would write an operating system for me to have me the freedom of goofing around, I would call it a very good source.
And, even if the OS itself was not so good, it doesn't matter, because people often learn the subject from the mistakes, shortcomings. After all, Linus wrote the Linux to improve Minix on Minix.
Re:His comment on Slashdot:
by
Coz
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
I never had him, but my favorite undergrad CS professor LOVED using his books - he would say "Here's where Tannenbaum got it right" and riff for five minutes, then say "And here's where he blew it, and this is why" and be off for fifteen... I enjoyed Tobin's classes, and I'm not sure he'd've been nearly as much fun without AST's textbooks to use as a basis. I've been through Compilers, Computer Networks, and two Operating Systems classes using Tannenbaum's books, (and many since using books by others), and I can say they were all bona-fide Learning Experiences.
Back then (way back in the late '80s), standard assignments were to go "tweak" parts of Minix - make the network interface big- or little-endian, switchable on the fly; change the file system block size and see what happens; screw up the priority system and see if user keypresses even get answered before your applications finish running... as a learning OS, demonstrating ways OSs can be put together, I learned a lot from it.
Then we got into compilers... *sigh*
-- I love vegetarians - some of my favorite foods are vegetarians.
Re:His comment on Slashdot:
by
1iar_parad0x
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
While I'm hardly a Linux zealot, I think Tanenbaum deserves quite a bit of credit. Tanenbaum's books are hands on. I'm not a CS major anymore; I'm a math major, so I don't claim to be up on every OS textbook in the field. However, I still like to get my hands dirty with interesting code and I've been a programmer professionally for several years.
I don't know Tanenbaum at all; however, his books are more hands on than the standard fare. My OS book didn't come with any usable code at all. Frankly, I had to force code into my class. In fact, my professor (old to the computer industry, but young to academia) was prompted to bring more required labs to the class because of it. I've picked up a few of Tanenbaum's books. In my opinion, it's as good at teaching operating systems as the "dragon" book is on teaching compiler design.
Why is Richard Stevens considered a genius and Tanenbaum not. Humility aside, like I said I never met the guy, most professors are a little bit pompous. As long as he doesn't torture his students with such BS, a little arrogance is fine by me. Including a small copy of a Unix-like variant to be examined with the book was revolutionary by pedagogical standards. I once had a copy of the "Lions Commentary on Unix". While it was interesting, it was written in C and Assembly (with some antiquated instruction set)**. The code was virtually useless for me. Despite popular opinion, I really don't have a PDP-11 in my basement. Tanenbaum's book|code was great. Finally a useful OS I could "play" with. Linux is too large to examine in a classroom. It's an industrial strength OS. Should I learn database theory by mucking with the source code for Oracle or DB2 (if this were even possible)? Of course not. Why should an OS be any different? You only learn by doing. You don't really learn by thinking about psuedocode. In this regard, MINIX fills a hole so desperately apparent in academia. MINIX provides a tangible example of modern OS design.
If you've had this man for a class and can relate a specific instance about his arrogance, feel free to do so. That's a completely different story. However, if you're going to knock the man for having some pride in his work -- well tough. It's not like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Gary Killdall, et al isn't a little bit of a "prick" too.
**I don't remember too much about the specifics of the "Lions Commentary on Unix".
-- What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
I've had him as a professor
by
tmgtmgtmg
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
I think I like this guy. Has anyone here ever had him as a professor? Is he this amusing when he's teaching class?:)
I've had him as a professor and he co-advised my Master's thesis.
Indeed, he is as amusing when teaching class. I took one or two classes he taught. However, his lectures are useless because his books speak for themselves. The only real reason to go to his lectures is because he is very funny.
In addition to the lectures, we had to modify the MINIX kernel to do memory fragmentation and modify the file system to support ACLs. Both not very hard, but a good learning experience.
I know he's always on the lookout for graduate students to work with him. Having had him co-advise my Master's thesis, I can wholeheartedly encourage you to work with Prof. Tanenbaum.
Slashdot Mirror
I read Linus' book and heard about the "feud" between him and Tanenbaum... somehow, I never connected that Tanenbaum to the one that wrote my networking text...
Whatever else may be said about Prof. Tanenbaum, I learned much of what I know about networking from his excellent text. It should be said that he is excellent at what he does (that is, teaching students about computers).
What we really need is a ten day waiting period and a background check before you can buy a congressman.
There is a difference, though it is often colored by the listener's own sense of self confidence.
In the spirit of AST's baseball analogy, I refer you to the immortal words of Dizzy Dean: " It ain't bragging if you can do it."
On the same note, I doubt that very many in the 'Slashdot-like' internet community need extra convincing to believe that the book is Microsoft-driven, not fact-driven.
Therefore the only effect Tanenbaum (and Slashdot) gets from this document is self-defence and mutual knob-polishery. Not that Tanenbaum is entitled to have his say and defend his honor, but there you go.
What the Slashdot/unix/GNU/whatever community really should consider is how they can truely counter the 'lets convince the stupid masses' policy of Microsoft. (yeah I know I sound elitist, thats because I am..)
Seriously though, the more manager types that don't fall for Microsoft Marketing the better, IMHO. But how? I don't think slashdotting works, but perhaps we should set up a more Market-driven avocacy site for open source. Get The Facts! There are plenty of people out there who would have fun with doing some effective marketing here, and could do more for the community than program another random number generator ;)
One of the things that strikes me most about Microsoft Marketing is that whatever Article (negative or no) I read online about Microsoft, 8 out of 10 times I see a big blinking Microsoft ad! I can't help but be impressed by that, even if I don't like it.
You're being way too fair to Microsoft. They bought a clone of CP/M ported to the 8086. Then, they sold a license for it to IBM.
In other words, they pretty much pulled a SCO, or at least SCO's stated intention at the outset of the current flurry of lawsuits.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
I'm not trying to make a hero out of AST, but he has been one of the most influential person in computer science. Not only has he contributed in terms of his creative input, but his bigger contribution is in teaching. His book on Computer Networks inspired me to write one myself.
Have you ever met Tanenbaum? Can you say that somebody is a "prick" just because he is willing to engage in a discussion solely on the basis of technical merits and because he loves one thing and hates another. I'll at least meet the person before debunking him as an egotist.
And Tanenbaum's achievements go beyond Minix. You can find out more if you care to look for his contributions on the web. He doesn't even count Minix as his achievement. The world does not know him for Minix. It was just a nice "add-on" to his operating book.
Have a good day.
... you guys would absolutely not believe the stuff this guy says about Free Software philosophy. He takes every single aspect of FOSS and gives it a sinister anti-business anti-America anti-puppy connotation.
I only read the first 20 pages or so, then I skipped to the bibliography. In over fifty listings, the only real books he listed were ESR's and they're available online. Every other reference he listed was someone's personal homepage or a newsgroup posting or something arbitrary like that.
There will be an article, ladies and gentlemen. I just haven't decided if it should be a serious analytical debunking of this troll book or a humor piece that shows its rediculousness.
-Jem
I think, if a professor of mine would write an operating system for me to have me the freedom of goofing around, I would call it a very good source.
And, even if the OS itself was not so good, it doesn't matter, because people often learn the subject from the mistakes, shortcomings. After all, Linus wrote the Linux to improve Minix on Minix.
I never had him, but my favorite undergrad CS professor LOVED using his books - he would say "Here's where Tannenbaum got it right" and riff for five minutes, then say "And here's where he blew it, and this is why" and be off for fifteen... I enjoyed Tobin's classes, and I'm not sure he'd've been nearly as much fun without AST's textbooks to use as a basis. I've been through Compilers, Computer Networks, and two Operating Systems classes using Tannenbaum's books, (and many since using books by others), and I can say they were all bona-fide Learning Experiences.
Back then (way back in the late '80s), standard assignments were to go "tweak" parts of Minix - make the network interface big- or little-endian, switchable on the fly; change the file system block size and see what happens; screw up the priority system and see if user keypresses even get answered before your applications finish running... as a learning OS, demonstrating ways OSs can be put together, I learned a lot from it.
Then we got into compilers... *sigh*
I love vegetarians - some of my favorite foods are vegetarians.
While I'm hardly a Linux zealot, I think Tanenbaum deserves quite a bit of credit. Tanenbaum's books are hands on. I'm not a CS major anymore; I'm a math major, so I don't claim to be up on every OS textbook in the field. However, I still like to get my hands dirty with interesting code and I've been a programmer professionally for several years.
I don't know Tanenbaum at all; however, his books are more hands on than the standard fare. My OS book didn't come with any usable code at all. Frankly, I had to force code into my class. In fact, my professor (old to the computer industry, but young to academia) was prompted to bring more required labs to the class because of it. I've picked up a few of Tanenbaum's books. In my opinion, it's as good at teaching operating systems as the "dragon" book is on teaching compiler design.
Why is Richard Stevens considered a genius and Tanenbaum not. Humility aside, like I said I never met the guy, most professors are a little bit pompous. As long as he doesn't torture his students with such BS, a little arrogance is fine by me. Including a small copy of a Unix-like variant to be examined with the book was revolutionary by pedagogical standards. I once had a copy of the "Lions Commentary on Unix". While it was interesting, it was written in C and Assembly (with some antiquated instruction set)**. The code was virtually useless for me. Despite popular opinion, I really don't have a PDP-11 in my basement. Tanenbaum's book|code was great. Finally a useful OS I could "play" with. Linux is too large to examine in a classroom. It's an industrial strength OS. Should I learn database theory by mucking with the source code for Oracle or DB2 (if this were even possible)? Of course not. Why should an OS be any different? You only learn by doing. You don't really learn by thinking about psuedocode. In this regard, MINIX fills a hole so desperately apparent in academia. MINIX provides a tangible example of modern OS design.
If you've had this man for a class and can relate a specific instance about his arrogance, feel free to do so. That's a completely different story. However, if you're going to knock the man for having some pride in his work -- well tough. It's not like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Gary Killdall, et al isn't a little bit of a "prick" too.
**I don't remember too much about the specifics of the "Lions Commentary on Unix".
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
I've had him as a professor and he co-advised my Master's thesis.
Indeed, he is as amusing when teaching class. I took one or two classes he taught. However, his lectures are useless because his books speak for themselves. The only real reason to go to his lectures is because he is very funny.
In addition to the lectures, we had to modify the MINIX kernel to do memory fragmentation and modify the file system to support ACLs. Both not very hard, but a good learning experience.
I know he's always on the lookout for graduate students to work with him. Having had him co-advise my Master's thesis, I can wholeheartedly encourage you to work with Prof. Tanenbaum.