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Circuit Boards + Soldering Iron == Terrorist?
Search and Seizure asks: "This week, the local police contacted one of my co-workers and informed him that they had been contacted by the FBI who requested that they investigate his apartment. According to the police, while his apartment repair staff were checking his smoke alarm, they had noticed suspicious looking items in his kitchen and had called the FBI because they suspected that he might be a terrorist. What do you do when your landlord suspects that you might be a terrorist and reports you to the FBI?" If the law comes a-knocking, always remember that you can politely ask for a warrant.
"The police officer went on to explain that my co-worker had two choices:
1) Let the local police take a look and explain what the 'suspicious' items were for.
2) Don't let the local police in. The police will let the FBI know, and they will use 'Homeland Security' to come in and do a full search.
He opted for the less drastic choice, and showed the officer the digital camera guts, his in-progress circuitry to take automatic pictures, the tethered balloon that he was going to hook them up to so he could take overhead pictures, and the beer keg that he used to store his beer.
The police officer accepted his explanations and it appears to have turned out okay, but the whole situation is a little disturbing.
What rights do we have to experiment and create in this age of paranoia?"
1) Let the local police take a look and explain what the 'suspicious' items were for.
2) Don't let the local police in. The police will let the FBI know, and they will use 'Homeland Security' to come in and do a full search.
He opted for the less drastic choice, and showed the officer the digital camera guts, his in-progress circuitry to take automatic pictures, the tethered balloon that he was going to hook them up to so he could take overhead pictures, and the beer keg that he used to store his beer.
The police officer accepted his explanations and it appears to have turned out okay, but the whole situation is a little disturbing.
What rights do we have to experiment and create in this age of paranoia?"
People have no balls. We all know this homeland security BS is totally unconstitutional, its not even a question. Here's what I would have done in the guys situation.
1) I would have taken advantage of my rights to the fullest extent forcing them to use the patriot act.
2) Gone to court eventually and claimed that the patriot act was unconstitutional.
3) Next year or the year after I would be in the supreme court with my lawyer, it would be US vs. Me and the patriot act would be declared unconstitutional making the world a better place for everybody.
Sure it would be a pain in the ass. Sure it would be a lot more work than that. And sure it would probably "ruin" my life. But this stuff wont go away on its own. Somebody has to fight it. I'm just waiting for my chance. The rest of the people around are all wusses who wont sacrifice anything for the common good. I can't wait until the day big brother comes to get me. I want to have a digital camera take a picture of the looks on their faces when I give them the double deuce.
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A coworker was on a plane recently where a aged, somewhat dark skinned Italian man pulled out a rosary and began praying. The young woman across the aisle was obviously distrubed, called the stewardess and had a whispered conversation. The stewardess started coming by and taling to the man asking questions like was he nervous about flying. On the next leg of the flight the flight crew got a burly, surly "steward", who was obviously an air marshal.
In the end, this incident just wasted some public servant's time. Same as the circuit board incident. Unless or until people get good at recognizing what a bomb detonator really looks like, things like this are bound to happen. I'd say a friendly show and tell with a local cop isn't so bad in the scheme of thigns. What I don't know is how muslims manage to live in this country given the climate of hysteria, having to pray five times a day. Imagine coming under suspicion of preparing yourself for a suicide bombing several times every day.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
It's not to clear from the writeup whether this guy let the police in to search his house, or just to explain the situation.
If it's the former, it raises alarm bells. The fact that the officers went down their without a warrant means this kind of thing happens often enough that they expected to get away with it. This is probably because people routinely submit to searches without warrants. If people always refused unwarranted searches, those officers would have made sure they got one before going down there.
In this case, as there was obviously little reason to be suspicious, the warrant would probably have been refused, and that would have saved this guy being hassled by the police.
If, on the other hand, the police just came in the talk to the guy, I think that is kind of reasonable. Somone reported something to them, and they were following it up. The fault is with the paranoid person that made the original complaint.
I think if I had been in this situation, I would have tried to explain to them on the doorstep what the equipment was really for. If they were unsatisfied with my explanation and wanted to search my house, I would have made them go get the warrant. And I would have explained to the police that this was because I believed the process of obtaining a warrant is there to protect innocent people from unecessary searches.
Unless innocent people refuse searches, the police will always believe that people who refuse searches are guilty.
Carefully document it, and bill him for time, any phone calls involved, and note that it is not necessarily complete should other costs arrise.
Now, you are unlikely to get paid. Make sure you call and complain about not getting paid, and send follow up invoices with late fees. Then drop it.
And rest secure that no more calls to the police will be made. The threat of having to pay a couple of hundred dollars is all that is necessary to stop some bored worker from amusing himself with fantasies.
Ever heard of John Titor?
He was supposedly a time travelor from 2036 that made his way around a few message boards between Nov 2000 - Mar 2001.
Most people seem to take him as a crock of shit, but many things he predicted are starting to happen. One thing he said:
I don't know whether to believe what he said or not, but I must admit that some of the things he said are definetely plausible. I thought this might interest you because of your comments on wanting to split up the Federal government.
So? The first time I had one pointed at me is when I got off of a plane in Frankfurt Germany in 2000.
There are lots of people that don't have the 3 things to battle in courts. They pay the parking tickets, they take plea bargains, they can't miss work, the list goes on.
You are too busy to your life to worry about your rights. Sad when you realize you don't have those rights at the end of the day.
I've hoped technology could correct this, e-voting, instant polls, communications with elected officials, but it hasn't.
Sad.
Yes, exactly. And now the government has a record of some of the interesting activity he's been engaging in. Perhaps he's gone in a file somewhere, a separate memo has been sent to some higher up State or Federal organization, he's being catalogued in a database...
While I don't necessarily agree with it, I don't think having the poster's scenario documented in a Fed database is a horrible thing.
I'll use myself as an example. When I was young (18 or so) I had several friends involved in breaking into telco boxes, cloning cell phones, etc. Well, they got caught eventually, and I was called in to be questioned by the FBI. I sat and talked with them for a good hour or so (Which made me late for work - and the FBI won't write you up an excuse either hehe) and they took the laptop my friend had given me, which later turned out to be stolen from his place of work (Office Max I believe). So here I am, in talks with the FBI about stolen property and cell cloning - I know I must be in a database or two somewhere, especially since a few of my friends where thrown in jail for it.
But since then, I've worked for several federal and state government agencies as well as a half dozen Casinos (which really love to search into the background of people), so I've had many many state & federal record searches done on me. I'm sure there's a database somewhere that lists everything about me down to tattoos, blood type, allergies, surgeries, etc. But it's never been a problem. I've never had anyone ever say anything to me about that incident, not has it ever prevented me from getting a job.
So really, even though I'm in a DB or twelve somewhere, it hasn't affected me in any way. But if I was a criminal, and had done some illegal things, then these database entries would help the authorities find me if they needed to and maybe even solve a crime I was involved in. Look at Ca, they record the DNA profiles of convicted criminals now and it's actually helped them solve a lot of 20+ year old cold cases.
The only things you have to worry about these databases is that they don't get into the wrong hands. Any other worrying would be because you either did something wrong, or are thinking about it.
I do wonder if I requested my file from the FBI if I'd actually get something - I've always been hesitant to stir the waters up with it hehe.
Looking for hardware (Currently need: Large Etch-a-Sketch) Have one? See my journal!
I've never had anyone ever say anything to me about that incident, not has it ever prevented me from getting a job.
Ah, but how can you be certain, comrade? Never been turned down for a job?
Or how about the complete insult to freedom of religion when they started banning Muslim head scarves in our schools?
Every nation, including the US, imposes limits on what is acceptable under freedom of religion. France imposed a minimal dress code in schools and they banned all religious symbols. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Furthermore, keep in mind that this is a pretty recent phenomenon, brough on by significant immigration into France. But people who come to France know what kind of culture they are getting into, namely a mostly secular culture with Catholic roots. France is not, and never pretended to be, an American-style multicultural society and it draws its lines differently. France's choice may well speed up integration and help Muslims assimilate culturally, while they develop new traditions for their religion in a French cultural context.
Besides, head scarves are more cultural symbols rather than religious symbols anyway. They are supposed to express modesty, but in a different cultural context, they achieve the opposite effect. Just because people claim that they are religious symbols doesn't make it so.
Not to mention the extrordinary stupidity of when they required the characters in Contra to be changed from people into robots because it seemed to violent for the children.
Well, and what about the extraordinary stupidity of banning nudity and sex in US media? Every culture has its sensitive spots. Banning violence seems no less reasonable than banning sex and nudity.
I mean, the way that the government has surveillance cameras in public places is just creepy.
In the US, the only difference is that it is private companies that do it. The US government can get the same information out of that, but they aren't even subject to the same kind of public oversight as the UK government.
I'm a US citizen and am fairly well travelled. I've entered a lot of different countries under a lot of different circumstances. I've also had a lot of guns pointed at me. Nevermind that I have a spotless record (not even a traffic ticket, or even any misconducts while in college... and who doesn't have a few of those?), I tend to get singled out at border crossings, customs, whatever, and of course every time I get through without a problem. I can't really say I mind that much - a moderate amount of security is a very good thing, and it does make me feel safer to know that the people doing the job aren't doing it half assed.
All of that said, the place where I have guns pointed at me the most, and I mean by far the most, is in the US. I know what I'm doing in an airport, it's not like I'm doing anything special to get attention for myself like walking through Do Not Enter doors in search of the bathroom. I'm a voting citizen who's never been in trouble for anything, and the only place in the world that sees fit to put me at the end of a rifle muzzle over and over again is my own country.
I don't have any great revelations to add to this, other than somehow this seems very, very wrong.
If you get nervous, just remember that there are a few billion other people who don't really give a damn.
there needs to be another American revolution, one which breaks up the Union into a set of smaller unions where the federal government isn't so separated from the people
This is inevitable. The US will segregate itself based on state laws. In fact, it's happening right now. Gay people can wed in some states but not others (at present). As a result, Gay people will tend to 'migrate' to those states that allow it.
On the other side of the coin, but on the same token - States like Utah (which outlaw alcohol), tend to draw more religious right wing people. California (particularly San Fran.) tends to draw progressive people to it; and LA tends to draw plastic/fake people that value their apperance and little more. Florida draws old people seeking serenity, and Vermont draws people looking to go back in time.
Granted there will always be people that aren't happy where they live, however, in general I think that a cultural revolution/migration is taking place now. Within a few generations the separation is going to become much more apparent. The federal government is going to become increasing called into question as it's forced to see-saw among the left and right wings. The power struggle between the left and the right will eventually crumble under its own momentum shifts (picture an amplified wave).
This is, of course, just a theory...
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
I'm no fan of certain clauses of the patriot act, including the allowance for feds to search property without presenting a warrant. But to suggest that there is no reason for this, other than to create a militant police state ignores facts which are fully in evidence.
Really? A quick quiz then: Which portions of the PATRIOT Act, had they been in force in early 2001, would have prevented the 9/11 attack?
America is so divided right now, right down the middle. All it would take is say, the draft being re-instated, (which is almost inevitable seeing that both Kerry and Bush want it to happen), and a few people being thrown in jail for doging, that combined with a repeat of the 2000 election where the loser CLEARLY one the voice of the people, and we will head toward civl war.
I for one, Titor not withstanding, (Titor or whatever his name is, who I consider a fraud), I can see such a war popping up in 2005, sooner rather than later if George W Bush is re-elected agian, and the republicans still have a strangle hold on Congress.
Sure our solders are said to of signed little pieces of paper that asks them if they would shoot on Americans, but when it comes down to it, I feel T LEAST half of them won't, and would even break ranks and join the rebals.
Of course if one is a rebal and is caught by the US goverment don't expect the US goverment to play by the Geneva convention, especially if it is the Bush Administration who is running the whole thing. You'll be stripped, humiliated, and yes tortured, all because you may not be wearing a uniform for a country.
This is my fear when ever I turn on the TV ( something rarly done now adays, seeing that I abhore TV because of the rampent commericalism displayed ), because I know that with a few short years there WILL be a civil war, and knowing that I would be on the side of the rebals, I fear that if I were caught there would be nothing stopping the US Goverment from tortuing me like they torture so-called terrosits at GB, or Iraq.
nobody even mentioned filing a complaint with the apartment management for invasion of privacy and stupidity of maintenance personnel. might even be a civil lawsuit in there somewhere for causing you problems with the law that they had no right to even stir up. and no, I don't think any kind of "reasonable doubt" would be covered
I'm good with numbers -
I worry about my own circumstances as a photographer. For the last 30 years, I've made photo prints using antiquated photographic processes. Many "alternative processes" use highly toxic chemical compounds that include cyanide, chromium, etc. and some of these toxic processes like Cyanotype are quite common, I remember learning how to make Cyanotypes in High School.
I bought large stocks of chemicals about 30 years ago, because it was almost impossible to buy them in smaller quantities. And by "large stocks," I mean like a small bottle of about 500 grams, which I've used about half of in 30 years.. So if the FBI ever decides to turn my house upside down, they'd probably find enough toxics to kill a small city full of people. I hope I don't ever run out, I can buy the chemicals from places like Photographer's Formulary, but I'm sure that the FBI gets a look at all their hazardous chemical purchases.
As I see the last election... There were two candidates. One whose wife's favorite charity is keeping her children out of jail, and the other whose wife's favorite charity is censoring music. But that's just me.
- High Tech workers, please say NO to Union Carpenters, their Union sees fit to control our compensation.
But Gore, as Vice President, wasn't part to starting any world wars.
Bush, while not being Vice President, nor starting any wars before getting into office, played (and won) on name value. Well, not really won. More people voted for the other guy
Actual Votes:
Bush: 50,456,002(47.87%)
Gore: 50,999,897 (48.38%)
Electorial Votes:
Bush: 271
Gore: 266
This time around, maybe people will look at the record.
Bush: started two wars, killed lots of people
Kerry: didn't start any wars, wasn't responsible for thousands of deaths.
I spoke with one lady, who said "Bush isn't that bad, I'd vote for him again", who a few weeks later told me "I'm not voting for him again", because her son, a Staff Sergeant in the US Army Reserve with 6 years in, due to end his tour in August, is now being sent to Afghanistan in July for at least a year. This isn't abnormal, it's now policy. Just because you're not in the military now, and have no plans for joining doesn't mean much
From what I've read, Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy, til he started his ethnic cleansing campaigns across Europe, and conquering other countries just because they were there. That became fairly well known after a while. Maybe you heard about it? World War II?
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
Let's say a police officer were to appear at my door without a warrant, wanting to search my house. If I allow him to enter, can he use anything incriminating that he finds as evidence, even though he conducted the search without a warrant?
IANAL. My comments pertain to US law. The best option as far as preserving your legal rights is to not consent to search or entry. If you want to talk, you can do that outside. You can even tell them you will wait outside with one of them while another procures a search warrant, so you can't destroy evidence. You could even bring the keg and electronics outside for inspection. If you tell them they may enter but not search that may place some limitationson them; the rooms you invite them into are somewhat fair game but they can't enter other rooms without sufficient probable cause. Police can search items within "reach, lunge, or grasp" without either a warrant or permission. And if they can see it, it is also fair game. If you do not want them to enter, tell them
You can step outside in order to talk to them. By the time they have knocked on your door, they may well have peeked in the windows (this is particularly true if they perceive any threat to themselves (which would be the case if they thought you were a terrorist) or others within the premises (in the case of a potential domestic violence call, for example).
It is recommended that you be polite (but firm) to police, do nothing that could be perceived as a threat, do consider things from their perspective, and be cooperative to the extent that it does not infringe your rights. "I know my rights! You <qbert>%@#%@%#$</qbert> pigs have no business coming in here!" is a really bad idea and the police may be justified in interpretting physical motions in their direction as assault that might not be interpretted that way under other circumstances. "Officer, I have been advised that by inviting you onto the premises I might inadvertantly forfiet certain legal rights. If you will permit me to step outside, perhaps we can discuss this and I can alleviate any concerns you might have."
What is particularly insidious about this case was the threat to bring in homeland security if you chose to stand up for your rights. Note they didn't threaten to come back with a warrant which would be the right thing to do if they had probable cause; they threatened to bring in someone who didn't need a warrant.
You can also ask some questions of your own. "Did the repairman have any expertise in bomb making? Did the repairman have any expertise in electronic (not electrical) devices? Did you have an expert in those fields interview him to determine if there was any basis for bothering me other than this man's ignorant speculations?" These can take some of the air out of the balloon of probable cause.
In this particular case, they may have some limited probable cause to search for a 1)bomb, 2)a surveilance device, 3) some sort of guided weapon.
Some people say if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to be afraid of. Spurious searches like these can have negative consequences for people who are engaged in any alternative lifestyle, government oversight, or technical hobby. What if your living room or other areas contain:
I spoke with one lady, who said "Bush isn't that bad, I'd vote for him again", who a few weeks later told me "I'm not voting for him again", because her son, a Staff Sergeant in the US Army Reserve with 6 years in, due to end his tour in August, is now being sent to Afghanistan in July for at least a year. This isn't abnormal, it's now policy. Just because you're not in the military now, and have no plans for joining doesn't mean much
Funny, this has been policy at least since the Carter years when I enlisted. That is part of the fine print in the volunteer armed forces. Didn't read it? Well he signed the contract.
I was sent to Honduras with 5 months left, I had to extend or reenlist to meet My Obligation. I had a wife, three kids, and a job lined up - too bad. This was in peace time, 1989. He should have just joined AmericaCorps if he was afraid to do his duty.
I take my oaths seriously, and I hope that everyone who serves does the same. If they joined for college money, I say pay them off and bounce them out. I want warriors willing to defend our constitution, country, and way of life. I don't want Slashdot Whiners defending my freedom and that of my children.
Rather, I read his post to indicate that it's important to understand the fear that led to the creation of the PATRIOT Act
Although I agree completely with your point, I don't think that he meant something so pleasant or sensible. Take a look at his other posts in this thread. E.g.:
We are at war with Afghanistan and Iraq. Why? Because they are part of a terrorist network which routinely seeks to destroy US interests, and not just on 911.
He's actually a fine example of the misdirection of the (completely legitimate) fear and anger that Americans felt after 9/11. Although I'm sure the government has managed to do some good as far as improving security, many of the actions, from the Patriot Act to the dubious detentions in the US and Guantanamo to the arrest of an Oregon lawyer to the invasion of Iraq have had a clear negative effect on our security.
I've had a total of 4 firearms pointed at me in my entire life.
;-)
1) Photographing a blood-red moon setting behind a school. Great shot. Cop pulls up behind my car about 500 yards away (hazards on flash). I head over so he won't give me a ticket.... and end up getting the business end of a riot gun aimed at me. Apparently someonecalled in a 'peeping tom' and he thought I was a suspect (uhh, yeah. leave my car outside with flashing lights... right.)
2) Trying to cross the road in France a sub machine gun aimed at me. Apparently the officer was saying 'you may not cross the road' in french, but that wasn't in my limited vocabulary... but seeing a jet black automatic aimed at you certainly was. The Prime Minister of Vietnam? (not even sure now) was traveling in the tunnels and they didn't want anything dropped on him (from my friends conversation afterwards)
3) Random search by airport security. I'd forgotten to put my steel toes on the conveyor. Legit concern
4) Cleaning a disassembled pistol. Idiotic to do such a thing, EVEN broken down, EVEN non-fireable (I had both clips in my hand). Still not funny.
Anyways, thats been my experience. In each case (save the first) it's been avoidable.